This article suggests some possible reasons why Russia is having problems wrt air activity.
Russia forbids Syria to use its S-300 against Israel.
I think they have few medium range PGMs (like the JDAM). So they're forced to dive bomb, WW2 style, with unguided FABs. In that scenario, any jet is vulnerable to AAA/SHORADS.
Low altitude ground-attack missions are hard to detect. Russia's failure isn't GBAD so much as it is poor airspace control. Russia needs to hang an A-50U in the sky 24/7, with 2-4 fighter CAPs. The problem is that Ukraine's own GBAD is unsupressed, so no A-50Us and high altitude fighter caps. Which goes back to the problem of IADS roll back and SEAD/DEAD missions. It's the challenge that was identified before any of this began. It looks like Russia tried to shut down Ukraine's IADS and air force all with missile strikes. And while it wasn't entirely ineffective, Ukraine lost lots of SAMs and aircraft, it wasn't total like it needed to be. Ukrainian airforce and air defense were disoriented and disorganized for the first several days, but surviving assets were rebased, and are now being used again. Granted the rebasing of assets also came with casualties. We have confirmed destroyed Ukrainian Buks and S-300s where it appears they were hit on the march, or while being transported. And some Ukrainian jets appear to be have been downed while performing these strikes. All in all it's not the clean air dominance situation that some might have expected. Really Russia needs to complete destruction of Ukrainian GBAD with heavy use of EW, and then take full control of the sky. But it's not clear how well this can be executed, and how willing Russia is to rely on EW to deal with the occasional surviving Buk TELAR.
The VKS went down the road of improving accuracy for unguided munitions using better targetting systems. Allegeldy they've reached comparable accuracy to first-generation PGMs. Even if strictly true, I have to ask comparable accuracy at what altitude? Also there has been a big push in the VKS to train pilots on avoiding ground-fire, especially MANPADS and AAA. In principle the VKS has done well in Syria even with unguided munitions, but this is a different situation altogether.
I am surprised you didn’t say Soviet Union as per profile location.
Russia doesn't seem to think the Donbass is part of Russia. So your position isn't supported by any of the parties to this conflict even with Russian recognition of the LDNR. The map in question isn't particularly relevent or historically accurate. Ukraine was not an entity within the empire. Please read through the earlier parts of this thread, this entire conversation was already had.
Freedom of speech refers to government activity. You are on a private forum. There is an expectation of quality posting here, and there are forum rules to follow. In addition we generally expect more then one-liner responses. This is an internet forum, not a chat client. The rule is sometimes relaxed based on circumstances and for members who have a history of positive contributions, but it is a general expectation.
Vladimir Putin, please log off.
I might sound a bit newbie, but could the reason be just poor planing / logistics, false reports, extreme corruption and a lot of poorly qualified people at important places that resulted in inability to use the VKS well? It looked nice when it fought ISIL or during the large-scale training that gave cool TV picture, but nobody really knew how it would perform against the country with +- same technological level. How well the new planes really work? How well were they maintained? How good does the intelligence work?This article suggests some possible reasons why Russia is having problems wrt air activity.
The curious case of Russia’s missing air force
Experts had expected the invaders to use their planes to pick off Ukraine’s forces at willwww.economist.com
There have been a number of articles suggesting all is not well with the Russian military aviation programs. Their recent reasonably successful activities in the ME are no where as demanding wrt AA in Ukraine. Time will tell the actual capability of the Russian air force.
I remember that Russians were bragging about the capabilities of their new guidance systems that was making even their older platforms relevant, but if that was even remotely true, then why have they not been busy selling that to pretty much every single non nato nation, non US allied nation?
1. That excuse works for the 1st 25 posts before it becomes really old. The onus is on you, having written 110 posts, to read up on the basics like Air Power 101 for New Members, instead of going around in circles. Pause, read up on the basics before sharing more.
2. @denix56, this is a bunch of unfounded conjecture that is not helpful to understanding the performance of VKS in Ukraine.
3. What you say might be true but without sources, this is borderline trolling. Feel free to be critical of VKS but make sure you provide sources for your claims and apply logic to arguments made, if you agree with the source.
www.aa.com.tr
To be expected given that the Russians are mostly flying at medium to low level making them vulnerable to various weapon systems.
We knew that from decades ago; wars in the Middle East, Africa, the former Soviet Union and South East Asia.
The question is whether the Syrians are employing them in the proper manner and what is the level of crew training?
Both countries also operate various non Russian systems. A true gauge would be if NATO employed its SEAD/DEAD capabilities against the Russians.
I just zapped everything I wrote about Libya and other adventures, as I don't want to derail this thread. Maybe I will post some of it sometime over on the other thread in a "lead up to this mess" post.
As I previously stated here in DT a long time ago, the U.S. has experts, analysts and think tanks which specialise in every field known to mankind, yet the highly disastrous [especially to the locals] cockups in Iraq and Afghanistan occurred. Illusion, incompetence, arrogance, hypocrisy, hubris, wishful thinking and highly flawed shortsighted policy ruled the day. We also have Syria and Libya - in both cases the illusion was that grateful locals would transition into Western friendly liberal democrats; the West ignoring historical, social political factors driving both countries . In Syria the West was hellbent on doing away with Assad but his departure would have been filled by IS and groups like it.
The Ukraine is different; in the heart of Europe and to its Western and other flanks bordering NATO states. The West will not lose interest and its actions will be restrained given the Russian factor. Also, for all its failings and limitations as a state which was burdened by communism for decades, discrimination against non blue eyed people trying desperately to leave, certain questionable policies in the past, and other factors; the Ukraine to a large extent has stronger stage institutions and a more ingrained state identity compared to Syria and Libya.
5. If the Russian fighters are not maintained, they will not be flying — platform centric discussions on the shoot down of Sukhoi aircraft, be it on the newer Sukhoi Su-34s (or older Su-30SMs), are not really useful to build a better understanding of VKS limitations and CONOPS. To-date, Russia tried unsuccessfully to shut down Ukraine's IADS and air force with missile strikes. Kindly remember that the air space of Ukraine is not forgiving, given the number of SAM systems in play.
9. No one is perfect but if the quality of posts remains low, we may have to consider locking this thread. I would rather not allow this nonsense to continue.
I've been in both countries many times, I can't tell the difference, they are so incredibly similar, food, music, same same, you can cross the border between them and if you didn't see the border post you wouldn't know you'd crossed. It's not like the difference in driving between France and Germany where you instantly know you're in another country, where the food, culture, language, buildings are vastly different.
