there were a lot of stories about Ukraina getting sold to China that came out in the fall of 2005. But it seemed like there was nothing that came out of it in the end.Agree. A Black Sea squadron with half a dozen Type 22380 corvettes and a few Lada SSKs would be perfect. Btw I wonder what is going on with the 4th Slava cruiser, still in theory 75% completed (a shame that the % hasn't evolved in 4 years).
The older Kashin-class DD and the 2 Kara-class CGs would be perfect museum ships, for instance one in Odessa and one in St Petersburg
cheers
Arms race: Greece & Turkey
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contedicavour
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China could have completed the cruiser... an extra ship with Grumble always comes useful ! Though I would have put Sunburn instead of the old Sandbox SSMs.
If China doesn't buy the cruiser, I think it is destined to continue rusting away... Russia already has the first Slava cruiser (Moskva) in the Black Sea and probably cannot afford to pay for a second one.
cheers
Ukraine is finishing the Slava class cruiser Ukraina Vilna to be the flagship of their Black Sea flotilla. It is in the 90% area of completion. The funding for completion has been sporadic at best but the military budget has been promised a doubling in size next year. We all know how that goes in the FSU.
contedicavour
New Member
Ah interesting, your source is apparently more updated than Jane's or the warfare.ru site. If the ship is indeed 90% completed it may after all sail one day... though all the Ukrainians have to escort such a big flagship is a few Krivak and Grisha light frigates and a single unreliable diesel sub.Ukraine is finishing the Slava class cruiser Ukraina Vilna to be the flagship of their Black Sea flotilla. It is in the 90% area of completion. The funding for completion has been sporadic at best but the military budget has been promised a doubling in size next year. We all know how that goes in the FSU.
cheers
The March issue of Sea Power 2004 said Defense Minister Oleksandr Olinyk said the Ukraina was 96% complete. In that article they said they were offering it up for sale to PLAN but they were going to pass on it. In Ukraines white papers in 05' said they were going to make it the flag as planned. I don't know squat from this year.
I supposed that export of Longbow radar system to other countries is prohibeted by USA. And again i supposed that AH 64 D versions could be exported without that radar.im not sure...
As to megalomania,
As i only wanted to tell you is, 12 AH 64 A Aphaches, 24 AH 64 D aphaches never enough for these claims. Its over anymore. Its really over. Turkish Government and especially Turkish Army Officers are now aware of that slogan:" stop armemant. make it by your self if you can"
I hope you understand what i mean.
BRGDS...
First of all I'm sure that you made a mistake,because you can't say that you protect your borders,because by your point of view,Aegean is your borders,but the truth is that Aegean is Greek.Secondly you can't never imagine how much damage the economy gets by taking so high level military plans,being a small country with a so high military spending percentage of GDP is really difficult to be found.Thirdly we too have projects of making our own armaments for example in planes armaments,upgrades etc.And finally you are a big(as far as population is concerned country),so you ought to have a big army,its not the claims that made you to have it.
contedicavour
New Member
Ok thans for the listing of the source. If the ship was 96% complete 2 years ago... by now it should be sailing. I guess the Ukrainian minister was a bit too optimistic, or he may have been trying to force better offers from PLAN, or even the Russian navy...
cheers
216 modernization kits for Turkish F-16s
December 27, 2006 (by Lieven Dewitte) - The U.S. government awarded a $635 million contract to Lockheed Martin for the upgrade of Turkey's fleet of F-16 fighter jets.
The work will be done mostly at Lockheed's facility in Fort Worth and Tusas Aerospace Industries in Ankara, Turkey.
Under the contract, which runs untill 2016, Lockheed will supply 216 modernization kits to upgrade F-16s operated by the Turkish air force and to provide testing and training help.
The contract continues work that began under a contract from July 2005, which followed an agreement between the two governments earlier last year.
Earlier this year, US Congress approved the sale of 30 advanced F-16C block 50s to Turkey as well as associated equipment and services.
Turkey also approved a production agreement for 100 F-35 Lightning IIs to meet the need of new generation fighter jets.
Turkey will participate in the manufacturing of F-35s which will be produced by nine countries led by Lockheed Martin in a USD 10 billion project for about 20 years.
F-35s are expected to be delivered to Turkey starting 2014. Turkey is set to purchase 30 new F-16 block 50 jets to meet the additional need until that time.
http://www.f-16.net/news_article2113.html
December 27, 2006 (by Lieven Dewitte) - The U.S. government awarded a $635 million contract to Lockheed Martin for the upgrade of Turkey's fleet of F-16 fighter jets.
The work will be done mostly at Lockheed's facility in Fort Worth and Tusas Aerospace Industries in Ankara, Turkey.
Under the contract, which runs untill 2016, Lockheed will supply 216 modernization kits to upgrade F-16s operated by the Turkish air force and to provide testing and training help.
The contract continues work that began under a contract from July 2005, which followed an agreement between the two governments earlier last year.
Earlier this year, US Congress approved the sale of 30 advanced F-16C block 50s to Turkey as well as associated equipment and services.
Turkey also approved a production agreement for 100 F-35 Lightning IIs to meet the need of new generation fighter jets.
Turkey will participate in the manufacturing of F-35s which will be produced by nine countries led by Lockheed Martin in a USD 10 billion project for about 20 years.
F-35s are expected to be delivered to Turkey starting 2014. Turkey is set to purchase 30 new F-16 block 50 jets to meet the additional need until that time.
http://www.f-16.net/news_article2113.html
the mangusta!sry to say this but this is a big mistake,because imho the mangusta is not as combat capable like Rooivalk,it´s just too small,there isn´t much room left for growth potential,the weapon load is also far from satisfying....this sucks,i´m really dissappointed about the chopper decision
Its an advanced version of Mangusta. The chopper will have to be modified to meet the requests of Turkish Armed Forces. (more powerful engine, more lift power, ability to put stinger on wingtips, Turkish mission computer, Turkish antitank missile, Turkish add-on armor based on Boron-ceramic, ASELFlir 300 etc.)
Denel lost its chances by saying they are having economical difficulties in the last weeks. No one will rely on such a company in already decades of delayed and billions of worth project. As you see both platforms need time and money to be changed in to TAF needs.. Denel lacks that money.. And I am sure having a French engine didn't help them either.
Acquisition of some AH-64 with Longbow radars as a tank killer fleet is still possible imo if a MMW radar will no be integrated with cooperation of Aselsan & Agusta.. Aselsan was working on such a radar according to some news published on a def magazine.
Denel lost its chances by saying they are having economical difficulties in the last weeks. No one will rely on such a company in already decades of delayed and billions of worth project. As you see both platforms need time and money to be changed in to TAF needs.. Denel lacks that money.. And I am sure having a French engine didn't help them either.
Acquisition of some AH-64 with Longbow radars as a tank killer fleet is still possible imo if a MMW radar will no be integrated with cooperation of Aselsan & Agusta.. Aselsan was working on such a radar according to some news published on a def magazine.
contedicavour
New Member
Mangusta CBT is much cheaper than most Western competitors (such as Tiger or AH64) and Finmeccanica has done its maximum to involve Turkish industry, including massive technology transfer.
From an economic point of view, this is by far the best choice for Turkey, and I'm not saying it just because I'm Italian
From a military point of view, most recent use of attack helos is as support to highly mobile infantry in scenarios such as Afghanistan. Today's Mangusta CBTs have proven they can do this in Iraq without problems. More advanced attack helos such as AH64Ds are an overkill vs most scenarios.
cheers
From an economic point of view, this is by far the best choice for Turkey, and I'm not saying it just because I'm Italian
From a military point of view, most recent use of attack helos is as support to highly mobile infantry in scenarios such as Afghanistan. Today's Mangusta CBTs have proven they can do this in Iraq without problems. More advanced attack helos such as AH64Ds are an overkill vs most scenarios.
cheers
I think the Turkish version of Mangusta (already called T-129) will be quite different than the CBT. It is said initially a number of CBT's will be rented from Italy as training platforms. The new engine , the new FLIR and the mission computer will make it a new helo. This will require some time but the new helo will probably do its job good enough and will be acquirable in large quantities (50+)
Perhaps Italian armed forces may choose TAI to modernize their aging fleet of Mangustas and arm them with something better than TOW
Meanwhile Otokar maker of Cobra armored vehicles will design the Turkish tank with foreign assistance from KWM. Initially 5 prototypes will be built and the prototype phase of the project will cost 500mio$.The development is going to take 5 years according to news.
Perhaps Italian armed forces may choose TAI to modernize their aging fleet of Mangustas and arm them with something better than TOW
Meanwhile Otokar maker of Cobra armored vehicles will design the Turkish tank with foreign assistance from KWM. Initially 5 prototypes will be built and the prototype phase of the project will cost 500mio$.The development is going to take 5 years according to news.
contedicavour
New Member
I doubt we'll update anytime soon our Mangusta beyond the CBT standard (we're just finishing now the CBT update on the oldest helos !!). It is true TOW is getting obsolescent, but so far we've used the helo as anti-guerrilla/COIN asset, and the machine gun plus rockets are enough in that role, never mind TOW. Our politicians are so fearful of sending Mangusta (perceived as an offensive tool) to our peacekeeping missions that we have to wait for the first casualties to obtain the green light to deploy (this happened in Iraq and just happened again in Afghanistan). Imagine what those politicians would do if our Mangustas got even nastier with longer range anti-tank missilesI think the Turkish version of Mangusta (already called T-129) will be quite different than the CBT. It is said initially a number of CBT's will be rented from Italy as training platforms. The new engine , the new FLIR and the mission computer will make it a new helo. This will require some time but the new helo will probably do its job good enough and will be acquirable in large quantities (50+)
Perhaps Italian armed forces may choose TAI to modernize their aging fleet of Mangustas and arm them with something better than TOW
Meanwhile Otokar maker of Cobra armored vehicles will design the Turkish tank with foreign assistance from KWM. Initially 5 prototypes will be built and the prototype phase of the project will cost 500mio$.The development is going to take 5 years according to news.
cheers
airfighter
New Member
I think that T-129 is going to be too tricky. I cannot see how it will come up to something almost equal with world's best attack chopers (Specially Apaches). A platform is the base for everything.
If you put more weapons, you'll need stronger engines then you'll propably need more fuel for consuption. Then you'll need bigger fuel tanks. Also it's going to have more electopitcal equipment. Plus weight.
If we go to the "computers" upgrade to meet Turkish standards, that's even more tricky. Developed from who? Tested? Appoved for use? The upgrade from AH-64A to AH-64D take US (with the experience they have) almost a decade (design to construction). When these are going to happened? I believe that this will happen close to 2020.
I think that best for Turkey (if you want a "Turkish" attack helicopter) is to get a ready-now one, and develope it's own from scratch, with target to be ready at about 2025.
If you put more weapons, you'll need stronger engines then you'll propably need more fuel for consuption. Then you'll need bigger fuel tanks. Also it's going to have more electopitcal equipment. Plus weight.
If we go to the "computers" upgrade to meet Turkish standards, that's even more tricky. Developed from who? Tested? Appoved for use? The upgrade from AH-64A to AH-64D take US (with the experience they have) almost a decade (design to construction). When these are going to happened? I believe that this will happen close to 2020.
I think that best for Turkey (if you want a "Turkish" attack helicopter) is to get a ready-now one, and develope it's own from scratch, with target to be ready at about 2025.
contedicavour
New Member
Except that the A129 or even T129 was never meant to beat a much more expensive AH64 ! Besides, I doubt the US ever considered building in Turkey a version of AH64. Development of the Turkish defence industry matters almost as much as the army's future capabilities...
cheers
You know that Turkey has already agreed to build a Turkish version of the Agusta A129?
airfighter;
the development on Turkish mission computer is already in progress and its being tested on one of Army's AH-1s.. The project started years ago and probably wont be completed until first batch of T-129s are already flying.
Americans are not giving enough freedom to play with the parts of the platforms they sell or install indigenous weapons so American products will face a harder time in future tenders from Turkey.
I dont think Turkey intends to put more at-weapons to T-129 , they just want more power to operate in higher altitudes of Eastern Turkey. In internal security operations helicopters fly with rockets and cannons not with hellfires.
the development on Turkish mission computer is already in progress and its being tested on one of Army's AH-1s.. The project started years ago and probably wont be completed until first batch of T-129s are already flying.
Americans are not giving enough freedom to play with the parts of the platforms they sell or install indigenous weapons so American products will face a harder time in future tenders from Turkey.
I dont think Turkey intends to put more at-weapons to T-129 , they just want more power to operate in higher altitudes of Eastern Turkey. In internal security operations helicopters fly with rockets and cannons not with hellfires.
KAI Wins Turkish Trainer Aircraft Contract
By BURAK EGE BEKDIL, ANKARA
Korea Aerospace Industries Ltd. (KAI) has won a long-delayed Turkish contract for the sale of up to 54 basic trainer aircraft, Turkish officials announced June 20.
KAI was competing with Brazil’s Embraer.
“A decision has been made to open contract negotiations with KAI for the Turkish basic trainer aircraft program,” Turkey’s procurement office, the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries, or SSM in its Turkish acronym, announced on its Web site.
A procurement official familiar with the trainer aircraft said that KAI’s solution was better than its rival’s in terms of local industry content and price.
“We are hoping to conclude the contract as soon as possible, and I don’t think there would be any stick issues.”
KAI is the maker of the KT-1 basic trainer aircraft, which is yet to be developed. Embraer’s solution was a proven model, the Super Tucano.
Industry sources estimate the contract value at about $450 million. The trainer program is considered by the Turkish air force as a “priority buy.”
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2849439&C=europe
By BURAK EGE BEKDIL, ANKARA
Korea Aerospace Industries Ltd. (KAI) has won a long-delayed Turkish contract for the sale of up to 54 basic trainer aircraft, Turkish officials announced June 20.
KAI was competing with Brazil’s Embraer.
“A decision has been made to open contract negotiations with KAI for the Turkish basic trainer aircraft program,” Turkey’s procurement office, the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries, or SSM in its Turkish acronym, announced on its Web site.
A procurement official familiar with the trainer aircraft said that KAI’s solution was better than its rival’s in terms of local industry content and price.
“We are hoping to conclude the contract as soon as possible, and I don’t think there would be any stick issues.”
KAI is the maker of the KT-1 basic trainer aircraft, which is yet to be developed. Embraer’s solution was a proven model, the Super Tucano.
Industry sources estimate the contract value at about $450 million. The trainer program is considered by the Turkish air force as a “priority buy.”
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2849439&C=europe
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