Arms race: Greece & Turkey

[falcon2k7]

When I hear Greece vs. Turkey discussions I remember what a professor of mine once said. He was USAF retired and in charge of the US nuclear arsenals on NATO AF bases. He was talking about the plan if the USSR attacked was to load up the Greek and Turkish planes with US nuclear weapons and hope to God they bomb the Russians instead of each other.

 

[XaNDeR]

When I hear Greece vs. Turkey discussions I remember what a professor of mine once said. He was USAF retired and in charge of the US nuclear arsenals on NATO AF bases. He was talking about the plan if the USSR attacked was to load up the Greek and Turkish planes with US nuclear weapons and hope to God they bomb the Russians instead of each other.

lmao funny

 

[fantasma]

lmao funny

It is not funny at all. Animosity existed in the past and from time to time this animosity was more extensive or less following political relations and tensions between the two countries. If someone trully wants to understand the bases of the 1000 years animosity and wars between the two nations has to study history and certain bibliography. After an extensive reading only then someone will see that it is not a funny story at all and the bloodshet we see in the Middleeast between Israel and Arabs since 1947 it is compared like a drop into the Ocean of bloodshet we had in the broader balkanic area and to minor asia. There is nowhere else in the world an example of such animosity wars slaughters conquests ethnic cleansing in this area between the two nations the last 1000 years. So try to find and understand the background and then decide if it is funny or not.

 

[beleg]

fantasma ,
that bloodshed during that period was seen everywhere in the world. Roman empire didn't conquer half of the known world with roses and olives. Nor did Goths and Celts shed less blood. History is written with blood no matter how unpleasant it is. And neither Turks nor Greeks are the only nations that suffered from the past.

If you cant leave past behind and look forward , that past will surely be your doom someday. I think that joke was a bitter but good joke.

 

[fantasma]

fantasma ,
that bloodshed during that period was seen everywhere in the world. Roman empire didn't conquer half of the known world with roses and olives. Nor did Goths and Celts shed less blood. History is written with blood no matter how unpleasant it is. And neither Turks nor Greeks are the only nations that suffered from the past.

If you cant leave past behind and look forward , that past will surely be your doom someday. I think that joke was a bitter but good joke.

Sorry for off topic. Allow me one question. Why all this nations which have suffered from the past look forward, they admit their mistakes and move on and we cant do the same, leave the bloodshed behind and hatriot (if any but not our history) and also to reach to a trully honest sincere reconcilliation with our past and our mistakes? This question is pretty difficult to be answered and it needs a deep analysis and has too many aspects and sights.

 

[beleg]

I don't think anyone truly admits their mistakes. They just pretend that they admit it. I haven't heard the axis or allies apologize for so many civilian deaths caused in ww2. Haven't heard an American apologize for what happened to Indians , haven't heard Spaniards feel bad about conquistadors, haven't heard Italians apologizing from Greeks? Have you?
Compare American reputation during Clinton era and Bush era, is it the same state that has so negative popularity now?

French and Germans are friends today only because what they discuss is not their borders, territorial waters or economical zones but rather how much funds they will get for their farmers or who will fill the quotas for some rubbish help to a 3rd world nation.

Life is all about profits, that means peace doesn't bring enough profit to both sides for now and there is still problems that the politician think need to be resolved by not-so-peaceful ways. When our politicians decide its in our best interest the people will forget about that 1000 years don't worry.

 

[Waylander]

Germany defenitely apologized as much as possible for everything cruel we did in WWII!

 

[fantasma]

Germany defenitely apologized as much as possible for everything cruel we did in WWII!

Thats for sure. Greece had about 10% human losses from the Nazis in the WWII but today noone Greek hates or dislike Germans for what is done in the past. My grand grand mother was executed and the house where afterwards my father was born was burned to the ground. Germany accepted mistakes Germany paid compensations accepted with a state to state agreement about 350.000 greeks to work there and feed their families when in Greece jobs were as much valuable and rare like diamonds etc etc..

With Turkey things are pretty much different. Look how Greeks perceive and feel about the city of Constantinople and what Istanbul means for the Turks. The Byzantine Empire an Empire consisting of a panspermy of nations where the greek nation language and culture was the predominent element was conquered by Turks and the Byzantine Empire was replaced by the Ottoman Empire. Christian populations where too much suppressed so many were either forcibly turned to Muslims and kids were taken by force to join the Jannisary armies.

During the wars of independence of the balkan christian states too many Turks were slaugthered and left the areas their ancestors have lived for ages. The same happened to the greeks and other christian nations that had too many persecutions loses casualties etc. In 1912 we had the balcan wars 1st and 2nd and greece and other christian states gained ground against the Ottoman Empire. In 1919 Greece landed forces in western minor asia took over the city of Smyrna /Izmir (160.000 total population at least 80.000 greeks) and trying to take over her sovenreighty in the future an area around this city and its inland. Greeks were a significant minority there (western minor asia) ranging from 10-40% and in some few areas they were the majority.

Turks reacted to protect their land and it was a war for survival for them. Ataturk managed to unite their movement and took advantage of greek stupid strategic choices. Some of retreating Greek forces commited crimes against civilians and same happened in a much more intensified way by advanced turkish forces and paramilitary groups mostly. The result was staggering. According to turkish statistics 1914 in minor asia eastern thrace central turkey and the region of trabzon Pontus there were 2.600.000 greeks and the next census in Greece about the refugees and exchanged populations in 1928 showed the population to 1.300.000..

From the other side turkish populations that had also lived for centuries to central Macedonia Thrace and Crete about 500.000 were sent according to treatment of Lozanne in 1923 to Turkey. Devastation human losses beyond imagination millions lost their homelands from both sides for ever. Today after the Losanne Treaty of 1923 article 15 says "Except where a provision to the contrary is contained in the present Treaty, the islands situated at less than three miles from the Asiatic coast remain under Turkish sovereignty" and Turkey after the Imia crisis expanded her demands to any island of the Aegean that has not been specified and refuces their status.

Let me remind Gavdos an island about 400 miles away from Turkish coast which status was disputed by Turkey. And remembering the Imia (in turkishKardak)crisis the treaty says something about the delineation in french text but everybody can understand the meaning""La ligne frontiere […] passe par les points suivants: […] 30.- a moitie distance entre Kardak (Rks.) et Kato I. (Anatolie)". Our dispute quarrel fight or so ever is concerning the control of Aegean Sea as i see it.

One State has the control of it and about 3500 islands 300 hundred inhabited and the other State is trying to gain as much as it can from this control and embedde this control to itself. A combination of history and todays problems in Aegean a "war" for the control of Aegean (not to mention Cyprus an other problem where to my opinion the turkish invasion was caused by greekcypriot atrocities and greek stupidity against the turkishcypriots). This is my subjective personal opinion. Sorry if i tire you.

 

[beleg]

For the genocide yes , i don't think both sides have really apologized for the raids against each others cities and deliberately against civilians. On the contrary everyone tries to justify that killing civilians and creating terror was a way to end the war much more quickly.

So what animosity are we talking about.. For many in the world this is just the way of life.

 

[beleg]

fantasma;

During the times when Janissaries were drafted from Christian families their numbers barely reached 15.000 in an empire whose population was millions and more than half of the population Christian (1300-1500).At their peak of power and most crowded time janissaries were only 40.000 - 50.000(1500-1600) strong and most of that numbers were Turkic-muslims. Ottoman Empire became a predominantly Muslim populated state only after ending Mameluk state and conquering N.Africa and eastern Anatolia from Turkic state of Safevids in Iran.

Lots of the drafted Christian converts became very important people and assume the role of viziers and grand viziers , of them the greatest being Sokullu Mehmed Pasha who was a Serb from Sokolovic family. Some of the top icons in Turkish heroic history are also these converts like Malkocoglu, who is from Serbian family of Malkovic. This was a way in which Ottoman sultans prevented forming of a class of Turkish nobility which could cause civil war or unrest in times of crisis.

I wont get into political parts of your posts but this was a military & military history issue i had to correct.

 

[fantasma]

Bodyguard of the Ottoman sultan, the Turkish standing army from the late 14th century until 1826. Until the 16th century janissaries were Christian boys forcibly converted to Islam; after this time they were allowed to marry and recruit their own children. The bodyguard ceased to exist when it revolted against the decision of the sultan in 1826 to raise a regular force. The remaining janissaries were killed in battle or executed after being taken prisoner.
http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Jannisary

Until the midst of 16th century janissaries were mostly christian boys
the following is a table about numbers and the year. Dont know about its credibility

Year Number of Jannisaries[5]
1514 10156
1526 7885
1567-68 12798
1609 37627
1660-61 54222
1665 49556
1669 51437
1670 49868
1680 54222

 

[contedicavour]

Ok let's try to steer this closer to the thread's topic

Any news on the following procurement programmes ?
> Typhoon acquisition by Greece
> AAW FFG/DDG programmes by Greece and Turkey

cheers

 

[beleg]

fantasma it just says what i am saying nothing new or different...Once the state had predominantly Muslim population the state did draft equal amount of Muslim boys as janissaries too. It was a state policy not something against Christianity. Mind you in 1500s the Ottoman empire was home to millions of Christians and Muslims which co existed rather peacefully compared to other co existing religions in the rest of Europe. Dont judge states of past with todays criteria.

contedicavour;
Well Turkey is still waiting to see the results of the national corvette program MiLGEM it seems to make a decision on the AAW frigate. According to an interview with Murad BAYAR (SSM) depending on the results of this project we might design our own frigate. There are already plans on this. Turkey is definitely not interested in FREMM. Italy does have a chance in the LPD project though.








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[fantasma]

No new major project has been signed since the last three four years with the exception of the last batch of the 30 F-16s block 52 advanced. The case of the Eurefighters have turned to a serial and in the next two three months we are having general elections and the only citzen that is not still aware of it is the....Prime Minister. It was said that a decision on that issue was to be taken after the 2008 by the next goverment. The last two months have started the delivery of the Mirage's 2000-5. Until late 2007 or early 2008 we will have operational the 4 AEW Eriye. The case of the 215 Marder maybe is going to be cancelled. The problem with the subs are in a way to find an agreement and delivery of the first boat maybe will delay a few months more and affecting surely the Neptune II upgrade of the rest 3 209/1200. As for the new frigate programme i guess the programing is still behind and it may take one or two more years time until we reach to signature. As for the new training aircraft the only decision was the announcement of the final number we should purchase (37) and nothing more. Greece had 6.5% deficit and now it is less than 2.5% but still deliveries from previous EMPAE are proceeding very slowly and whenever they can they stop the acceptance of these weaponry in order not to affect the deficit. And ending with a personal opinion the today's minister of Defence is dealing much more with the forecoming elections and his political influence in his party rather than the needs of defence :lul ...

 

[Waylander]

I have also seen that it looks like the Marder deal is going to be cancelled.
What will be the result?
Another IFV purchase or is the mech inf screwed because they need to keep the M113s in use.

 

[fantasma]

I have also seen that it looks like the Marder deal is going to be cancelled.
What will be the result?
Another IFV purchase or is the mech inf screwed because they need to keep the M113s in use.

My friend, the case of the 99% cancelling of the 415 Marder characterises the people who are in charge the lack of money and the political trent of not investing money for national defense projects and consider it as a waste of money. The reasons for cancelling may be high costs, inability to have operational within a year the whole numbers of Marder and the refusal of the german side to answer to all the scenarios the greek side have asked conserning maintenace issues logistics. In 20th of June on the presense of Minister of Defence Mr. Meimarakis Mr Vassilakos said "we have decided not to proceed"...and the previous day the German ambassador came with a better proposal in cost less than 260 million euros, he also presented 4 scenarios conserning logistics and maintenace issues. He stated that 183 Marder were ready for instant delivery and the rest 229 with factoral utilization the latest scenario was for 24 months after the state to state agreement..so they had negotiations with the german side which made serious proposals and the next day the Ministry announced that they are not interested any more so the negotiations they were for months years was totally a lose of time. If i were the german ambassador i would surely throw to their faces kilos of yougurt..

 

[Waylander]

I always thought that buying german surplus Marders are one of the cheapest and most reasonable steps if one wants to replace obsolete (In the IFV role) M113s with a real IFV without needing to invest much money.

But if they don't want them we just scrap them. Metal prices are good these days...

 

[beleg]

If Greece lack money whats next? Definitely not PUMA if money is the issue? We can sell you guys some ACV-300s if you really need something .


Fantasma , today i have read an article which claimed Turkey may open a war to Greece this summer ( lmao ) in balkanalysis site.. Written by a Greek author.. I wonder if this has found its way to general media and audience or is it just the blind perspective of the author himself.

 

[contedicavour]

Well Turkey is still waiting to see the results of the national corvette program MiLGEM it seems to make a decision on the AAW frigate. According to an interview with Murad BAYAR (SSM) depending on the results of this project we might design our own frigate. There are already plans on this. Turkey is definitely not interested in FREMM. Italy does have a chance in the LPD project though.

​

For AAW I actually expected Turkey to use ESSM and SM2, so I didn't hope too much for interest in FREMM. Milgem is very likely to be a successful light frigate, but building a DDG or large FFG afterwards may require 10 years from now. That's a long time. May be some help from German or Spanish shipyards could accelerate things.
On the LPD, I certainly hope cooperation is possible. The Italian MOD isn't giving the green light to building our 4th LPD until Fincantier can find sufficient common ground between Italian and Turkey's requirements... Do you have any link in Turkey's press to the exact requirement (LPD, LHD, tonnage, hangar or not...) ?

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

No new major project has been signed since the last three four years with the exception of the last batch of the 30 F-16s block 52 advanced. The case of the Eurefighters have turned to a serial and in the next two three months we are having general elections and the only citzen that is not still aware of it is the....Prime Minister. It was said that a decision on that issue was to be taken after the 2008 by the next goverment. The last two months have started the delivery of the Mirage's 2000-5. Until late 2007 or early 2008 we will have operational the 4 AEW Eriye. The case of the 215 Marder maybe is going to be cancelled. The problem with the subs are in a way to find an agreement and delivery of the first boat maybe will delay a few months more and affecting surely the Neptune II upgrade of the rest 3 209/1200. As for the new frigate programme i guess the programing is still behind and it may take one or two more years time until we reach to signature. As for the new training aircraft the only decision was the announcement of the final number we should purchase (37) and nothing more. Greece had 6.5% deficit and now it is less than 2.5% but still deliveries from previous EMPAE are proceeding very slowly and whenever they can they stop the acceptance of these weaponry in order not to affect the deficit. And ending with a personal opinion the today's minister of Defence is dealing much more with the forecoming elections and his political influence in his party rather than the needs of defence :lul ...

Wow I'd say the air force is the only "lucky" armed force here, as the latest F16s and Mirage 2000-5s and AEW are excellent add-ons...
The army did get a lot of Leo2s... the navy seems to be the poor parent here...

cheers