Arms race: Greece & Turkey
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Well her new Leo's are going to the Greek border and the old Sabras are facing Iran. She doesn't see that as a threat with a superior AF I guess. The Kurds can be subdued with the most basic of equipment.
Dear Big-E,
For a defense analyst, I think your response is not adequate.
First of all, if you look around Turkey, you will see all kinds of problematic regions. We are aware of Iraq. Until a few years ago, Syria was another country who harbored the terrorists. Iran is planning to go nuclear. All these countries are on the list of possible targets by the western countries and there is a chance that such conflicts could jump to Turkey. Additionally,
as Turkey becomes an energy hub, it becomes important for Turkey to protect the energy lines (i.e., BTC pipeline, Black Sea and Eastern Mediterranean), hence in contrast to Greece, Turkey has lots of threats around. The only threat Greece sees is Turkey. So I would ask who would be insane in this case?
For the original question, the answer is very long and would create a political discussion. However, in short, in addition to Cyprus, there is one main problem, the Agean Sea.
Basically, Greece wants to increase its territorial waters to 12 Miles and Turkey declared that such an attempt is the casus belli for a war. An extension of the territorial claims is the national airspace. Greece claims 10 miles, Turkey rejects. As a results, there are several mock dogfights over the disputed space, since in Turkey's view they are international, in Greece view they are their space. Also, as Athens' FIR is a civilian institute, Turkey doesn't have to submit flight plans for the military craft to it, and Greece sends aircraft to intercept Turkish planes whenever they fly in the international space claiming that they need to identify unknown aircrafts. There are also some islets with ownership problems. Finally, some conspiracy theorists believe that there are oil reserves under the Agean sea and both sites are disputed over the exclusive economic zones there.
I'm not an anaylist, I'm a pilot. I think any reference to a Greek threat is blown out of proportion... if Turkey is serious about joining the EU.
The only threat on that list is Iran. There won't be any invasion of any country, if you hadn't noticed the American elections. Greece won't touch you. You are too powerful as it is. They can hardly afford to maintain the forces they have to keep the status quo. If Turkey proceeds with it's build-up it will destabalize the region.
I'm not here to rehash Athen's FIR... you are taking this to a place we will not go. If they want to join EU they must give up their claims, it is that simple. They won't want a Tukery that doesn't buy into EU weapons either. Turkeys desicion to buy American and produce domestic arms will cost them in the court of joining the EU.
contedicavour
New Member
It is true that the recent Greek defence budgets are more modest than in the past.
The navy has decommissionned the 3 CF Adams DDGs without any replacements. The 10 Kortenaer and even the 4 Hydra are getting old and require updates including at least ESSM. Even if Greece joins FREMM consortium, building up to 6 new FFGs means no new FFG until 2012 earliest. Regarding SSKs, the new U214s are more likely to replace the first 4 U209s which are '70s vintage => so the number would not increase from 8.
The air force is powerful but the Mirage 2000s would need upgrades, as would the bulk of the F16s. New F16s are coming, that's true. Still, any new buys of Typhoon or JSF will not translate into deliveries until beyond 2010 (Typhoon, especially if batch 2 or 3) or 2013 (JSF).
I'm less familiar with the army, but even the 170 new Leo2s are not enough to replace the hundreds of old MBTs.
Some sort of Greek-Turkish consensus on procurement reduction may help appease both sides and reduce the pressure defence spending puts on both countries' budgets.
cheers
The navy has decommissionned the 3 CF Adams DDGs without any replacements. The 10 Kortenaer and even the 4 Hydra are getting old and require updates including at least ESSM. Even if Greece joins FREMM consortium, building up to 6 new FFGs means no new FFG until 2012 earliest. Regarding SSKs, the new U214s are more likely to replace the first 4 U209s which are '70s vintage => so the number would not increase from 8.
The air force is powerful but the Mirage 2000s would need upgrades, as would the bulk of the F16s. New F16s are coming, that's true. Still, any new buys of Typhoon or JSF will not translate into deliveries until beyond 2010 (Typhoon, especially if batch 2 or 3) or 2013 (JSF).
I'm less familiar with the army, but even the 170 new Leo2s are not enough to replace the hundreds of old MBTs.
Some sort of Greek-Turkish consensus on procurement reduction may help appease both sides and reduce the pressure defence spending puts on both countries' budgets.
cheers
All greek defence budgets after 2003 are modest not cause of reduced tensions with Turkey but mostly cause of the exhaustion of economy after the colossal weapons expenditures from 1996-2003 and the 2004 Olympics..afterwards the economy needed to take a deep breathe and reduce the debt from 6.5% under 3% and meet E.U economic standards..also Turkey from the other side after 2000 severe economic crisis is still under IMF control for their loans to the turkish economy..
contedicavour
New Member
Well then let's hope that the spending reduction out of necessity will remain once the economic possibilities will be back... some sort of arms control is needed may be, if diplomatic consensus between Greece and Turkey is found.
Of course, for the sake of employment in the region where I was born in Italy, I'd be happy to see more weapons procurement, but I'd prefer to see more weapons usable in overseas deployment for UN or NATO purposes, or ATBM capabilities ...
cheers
Turkeys main projects,
Airforce;
FCA - JSF/EF-2000 beyond 2015, +100 platforms, not signed
Peace Eagle AEW&C - delayed. delivery after 2008.
F-16 mod - will complete by early 2010s. All aircraft in the fleet to be modernised blk40&50 will receive 50+ abilities while blk30 will get limited modernisation.
MR/LR High Altitude ATBM/SAM - deliveries after 2010, not signed
Navy;
Genesis - Mod of Perry Frigates, on track. Modest mod , no new weapon systems. Includes a locally designed & developed ship integrated battle management system. R&D project for MiLGEM.
Milgem - Design & production of a corvette capable of ASuW and ASW warfare, anti smuggling and patrol duties littoreal waters. First ship enters service after 2010+.
AIP Sub - On Rfi phase. Will probably replace old 209s. 2 + 2 beyond 2010s.
OPV - 16 boats with Patrol / ASW capabilities will be designed and built locally.
LPD - Rfi. will enter service early 2010s
Army
Local Tank - First prototype by 2010
ATAK helo tender- only God knows...
Sec Hand Tanks / M60 Mod - on track. Total of 298 Leo2A4 & 170M60T enters service by 2010
Turkey is not buying anything that will change the balance until mid 2010s when Greece will also start acquiring their new toys.. So whats the hype?
@contedicavour
FYI With the order of 170 Leo2A6HELs Greece has started receiving 180Leo2A4s and 230 Leo1A5s
Greek M-2000s are already under modernisation to 2005 standard but they had some problems with the ECM last time i read and HAF did not receive the aircraft. Maybe fantasma can update us on this as i am curious on their latest state.
Airforce;
FCA - JSF/EF-2000 beyond 2015, +100 platforms, not signed
Peace Eagle AEW&C - delayed. delivery after 2008.
F-16 mod - will complete by early 2010s. All aircraft in the fleet to be modernised blk40&50 will receive 50+ abilities while blk30 will get limited modernisation.
MR/LR High Altitude ATBM/SAM - deliveries after 2010, not signed
Navy;
Genesis - Mod of Perry Frigates, on track. Modest mod , no new weapon systems. Includes a locally designed & developed ship integrated battle management system. R&D project for MiLGEM.
Milgem - Design & production of a corvette capable of ASuW and ASW warfare, anti smuggling and patrol duties littoreal waters. First ship enters service after 2010+.
AIP Sub - On Rfi phase. Will probably replace old 209s. 2 + 2 beyond 2010s.
OPV - 16 boats with Patrol / ASW capabilities will be designed and built locally.
LPD - Rfi. will enter service early 2010s
Army
Local Tank - First prototype by 2010
ATAK helo tender- only God knows...
Sec Hand Tanks / M60 Mod - on track. Total of 298 Leo2A4 & 170M60T enters service by 2010
Turkey is not buying anything that will change the balance until mid 2010s when Greece will also start acquiring their new toys.. So whats the hype?
@contedicavour
FYI With the order of 170 Leo2A6HELs Greece has started receiving 180Leo2A4s and 230 Leo1A5s
Greek M-2000s are already under modernisation to 2005 standard but they had some problems with the ECM last time i read and HAF did not receive the aircraft. Maybe fantasma can update us on this as i am curious on their latest state.
A few days ago the P.M Costas Karamanlis visited the Ministry of Defence and the announcement one of the news that came out was that the deliveries of the Mirage 2000-5 will take place (at last
, my personal view is that mostly the problem for not accepting the platforms was an economic one) before the end of the year or early 2007..
Something else i would like to point out is that last weeks, months, several greek newspapers say that maybe major armament programs will be postponed (like the new generation aircraft) after 2008 for these reasons a)2007 is the last year that this goverment has the power and must put money on social issues in order to show her social face and win the elections. maybe we will have them earlier than expected and it is rumored that Spring or Autumn 2007 we will go on general elections..b) cause present goverment accused previous one for economic scandals in armament projects they feel that they will be now under strain and fear that they will also be accused for defence and economic scandal decisions so afraid to take the responsibility and put on their signature on significant projects of colossal amounts..c) from the 11.3 billion euros the 8.5 billion will go for previous payments and you have to add more than a billion for value added tax.. about 10 billion for previous payments..what remains for the current Empae is a minor amount..
if you want my personal view before these articles come on the surface i had too many suspicions that the current Empae is trully a "ghost program" as i have posted a fiew months ago on this thread..till now not a single major programm has gone a single inch forward..
, my personal view is that mostly the problem for not accepting the platforms was an economic one) before the end of the year or early 2007..Something else i would like to point out is that last weeks, months, several greek newspapers say that maybe major armament programs will be postponed (like the new generation aircraft) after 2008 for these reasons a)2007 is the last year that this goverment has the power and must put money on social issues in order to show her social face and win the elections. maybe we will have them earlier than expected and it is rumored that Spring or Autumn 2007 we will go on general elections..b) cause present goverment accused previous one for economic scandals in armament projects they feel that they will be now under strain and fear that they will also be accused for defence and economic scandal decisions so afraid to take the responsibility and put on their signature on significant projects of colossal amounts..c) from the 11.3 billion euros the 8.5 billion will go for previous payments and you have to add more than a billion for value added tax.. about 10 billion for previous payments..what remains for the current Empae is a minor amount..
if you want my personal view before these articles come on the surface i had too many suspicions that the current Empae is trully a "ghost program" as i have posted a fiew months ago on this thread..till now not a single major programm has gone a single inch forward..
Maybe it is a supplemental munition procurement for the latest buy of the 30 blk 52s or to reinforce in general standoff capabilities of HAF
WASHINGTON --- The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Greece of F-16C/D munitions, as well as associated equipment and services. [B]The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $104 million. [/B]
The Government of Greece has requested a possible sale of Major Defense Equipment (MDE):
- 40 AGM-154-C Joint Standoff Weapons (JSOW);
- 100 GBU-31 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) Kits;
- 200 CBU-103 Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD) with FZU-39 Proximity Mechanisms;
- 100 Enhanced Paveway II with BLU-109; and
- 136 Enhanced Paveway II with MK-84 Warheads
Also included are JSOW training missiles, BRU-57/A Smart Rack Launchers, containers, system integration and testing, sensors, missile modifications, fuzes, software development/integration, test sets and support equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical data, maintenance, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor representatives, contractor engineering and technical support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $104 million.
This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security objectives of the United States by improving Greece’s military capabilities and furthering weapon system standardization and interoperability with U.S. forces.
The Government of Greece needs these capabilities for mutual defense, regional security, modernization, and interoperability with the U.S. and other North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) countries. The modernization of Greece’s F-16 fleet will increase the effectiveness of its contribution and capabilities to future NATO, coalition, and anti-terrorism operations.
This will also enhance Greece’s ability to patrol its extensive coastline and borders against future threats, and will contribute to the War on Terrorism and to NATO operations. This modernization will be provided in accordance with, and subject to the limitation on use and transfer provided under the Arms Export Control Act, as amended, and as embodied in the Letter of Offer and Acceptance.
The proposed sale of the weapons will bring overall standoff performance up to existing regional baselines. Greece will have no difficulty absorbing these weapons into its armed forces.
This proposed sale will not adversely affect either the military balance in the region or U.S. efforts to encourage a negotiated settlement of the Cyprus question.
The principal contractors will be:
- Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control Orlando, Florida
- Raytheon Missile Systems Tucson, Arizona
- Boeing Integrated Defense Systems Arlington, Virginia
Although generally the purchaser requires offsets, at this time there are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.
The number of U.S. Government personnel and contractor representatives required in Greece to support the program will be determined in joint negotiations.
There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.
This notice of a potential sale is required by law; it does not mean that the sale has been concluded
WASHINGTON --- The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Greece of F-16C/D munitions, as well as associated equipment and services. [B]The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $104 million. [/B]
The Government of Greece has requested a possible sale of Major Defense Equipment (MDE):
- 40 AGM-154-C Joint Standoff Weapons (JSOW);
- 100 GBU-31 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) Kits;
- 200 CBU-103 Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD) with FZU-39 Proximity Mechanisms;
- 100 Enhanced Paveway II with BLU-109; and
- 136 Enhanced Paveway II with MK-84 Warheads
Also included are JSOW training missiles, BRU-57/A Smart Rack Launchers, containers, system integration and testing, sensors, missile modifications, fuzes, software development/integration, test sets and support equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical data, maintenance, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor representatives, contractor engineering and technical support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $104 million.
This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security objectives of the United States by improving Greece’s military capabilities and furthering weapon system standardization and interoperability with U.S. forces.
The Government of Greece needs these capabilities for mutual defense, regional security, modernization, and interoperability with the U.S. and other North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) countries. The modernization of Greece’s F-16 fleet will increase the effectiveness of its contribution and capabilities to future NATO, coalition, and anti-terrorism operations.
This will also enhance Greece’s ability to patrol its extensive coastline and borders against future threats, and will contribute to the War on Terrorism and to NATO operations. This modernization will be provided in accordance with, and subject to the limitation on use and transfer provided under the Arms Export Control Act, as amended, and as embodied in the Letter of Offer and Acceptance.
The proposed sale of the weapons will bring overall standoff performance up to existing regional baselines. Greece will have no difficulty absorbing these weapons into its armed forces.
This proposed sale will not adversely affect either the military balance in the region or U.S. efforts to encourage a negotiated settlement of the Cyprus question.
The principal contractors will be:
- Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control Orlando, Florida
- Raytheon Missile Systems Tucson, Arizona
- Boeing Integrated Defense Systems Arlington, Virginia
Although generally the purchaser requires offsets, at this time there are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.
The number of U.S. Government personnel and contractor representatives required in Greece to support the program will be determined in joint negotiations.
There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.
This notice of a potential sale is required by law; it does not mean that the sale has been concluded
Can our friend beleg provide us some more info of the status of the possible sale of 30 more F-16 blk 50+..was there any contract? it will take place until the end of the year??.. (same like the JSF issue) and to ask also if there is a possible increase in numbers meaning if the number 30 is now a 30+10
The sale was approved by US congress. Contract negotiations are underway mainly focusing on issues such as integration of Turkish made AselPod navigation & targeting pods and stand off guided weapon system as well as modification of OFP software of the aircraft and possible future procurement of AIM-120D AMRAAM missiles. It is reported that negotiations are expected to be finalized soon (but how soon? do not know)
contedicavour
New Member
Just a quick question, both Greece and Turkey operate AIM-120B Amraam right now ?
Would the modernized Greek Mirage 2000 carry Mica ?
Do the modernized Turkish Phantoms carry Israeli Derby ?
cheers
Would the modernized Greek Mirage 2000 carry Mica ?
Do the modernized Turkish Phantoms carry Israeli Derby ?
cheers
Modernized F-4E's (F-4E 2020) do not carry A-A missiles other than Sidewinders for self protection.
F-16 CCIP modernization project (Peace Onyx III) covers integration and testing for Derby AA missile for F-16's as well as Spice guided munition as an option though.
For reference:
contedicavour
New Member
Thks for the quick answer !
So I read correctly... if I say there are no AIM120 in Turkish service ?
The F16s prior to modernization only carried Sparrow ?
cheers
So I read correctly... if I say there are no AIM120 in Turkish service ?
The F16s prior to modernization only carried Sparrow ?
cheers
No, TuAF currently operates AIM-120A/B AMRAAM with F-16 Block 40, Block 50's.
TuAF F-16's did not carry Sparrow's.
AIM-120C-5 will be procured with CCIP programme. There are negotiations for a future possible procurement of AIM-120D's.
Sparrow's were used with F-4E's and are almost completely phased out.
About the modernisation of the f-16s, 89 will be blk 52+, 40 are blk 50 and about 30 of blk 30..to my point of view it may not be wise to put money on these of blk 30 cause around 2015 must withdraw..only the 40 of blk 50 need a modernisation to CCIP level and mainly the last 21 Mirage 2000-5 which are a total different airframe with enhanced air to air, air to ground capabilities..
As far as the army the plan is to acquire a total of 500 Leo's (170 2A6, +183 2A4, +164 2A4 in the near future and upgrade the 2A4 as close as possible to the 2A6 level
Block 30's will not receive full modernization, only to an extent where AA capabilities increas and service life & quality is optimized for their OCU training role.
Peace Onyx III modernization project comprises of two batches:
PO IIIa: 76 Block 50, 4 Block 40, 37 Block 30. Block 50 and Block 40 aircraft will be upgraded to Block 50+ standard, where Block 30's will receive limited modernization, as mentioned.
PO IIIb: 100 Block 40: Upgrade to Block 50+ standard. This second batch was an option and according to various defence industry sources has been realized.
After this years mishpas total number of aircraft to receive modernization was changed of course. PO IIIb became 99 or something and I'm not sure about PO IIIa, maybe 75 Block 50's, must check.
EDIT!: I'm sorry fantasma, I thought you were talking about Turkish CCIP programme.
You are welcome..
thx for your contribution..Although orko_8 has answered Fantasmas questions, in the latest SSIK there are various news about ongoing projects.
Firstly the F-16s are 30, like orko said talks are still ongoing on various stuff which also includes production of the new airframes in TAI Ankara facilities.
The modernisation of 4 of the 6 Type 209s of TuNavy has been cancelled, instead , the number of platforms to be acquired with AIP tech has been increased to 6. That means 1 -1 replacement of these subs.. Anyone want our old 209s?
ATAK tender result has been delayed, companies are asked to bring their platforms to Turkey to see their performance in harsh conditions.:unknown
Another decision taken was on the FCA tender. Turkey will initially buy 100 F-35. The number "may" increase the MoD said. When asked about EF-2000 he said EADS offer was very interesting and Turkey would love to be a part of any defence project of Europe, however Greek Cypriots are putting a veto on Turkey to join EDA, thus while that veto exists it is not very easy for Turkey to buy defence equipment from European countries.. a message goes to Eurozone....:nutkick
Firstly the F-16s are 30, like orko said talks are still ongoing on various stuff which also includes production of the new airframes in TAI Ankara facilities.
The modernisation of 4 of the 6 Type 209s of TuNavy has been cancelled, instead , the number of platforms to be acquired with AIP tech has been increased to 6. That means 1 -1 replacement of these subs.. Anyone want our old 209s?
ATAK tender result has been delayed, companies are asked to bring their platforms to Turkey to see their performance in harsh conditions.:unknown
Another decision taken was on the FCA tender. Turkey will initially buy 100 F-35. The number "may" increase the MoD said. When asked about EF-2000 he said EADS offer was very interesting and Turkey would love to be a part of any defence project of Europe, however Greek Cypriots are putting a veto on Turkey to join EDA, thus while that veto exists it is not very easy for Turkey to buy defence equipment from European countries.. a message goes to Eurozone....:nutkick
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