Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[x100 XKR]

La portaerei Garibaldi in pensione dopo 41 anni: a Taranto anche una petizione online per tenerla in città come museo galleggiante

Una disfida a distanza con Genova per il futuro della storica unità della Marina militare

bari.repubblica.it

The quote I take from that La Repubblica article. This is already a month old, that basically talk about the option for Garibaldi fate. Either scrap it, sell it, or turn it into museum. It's a month old article, but it is shown there're quite serious approach from Indonesian side to look into Garibaldi condition.

Don't ask me why, as I point out on my previous post, getting LHD or even 2nd hand Light Carrier is "insane" and wasting resources at this stage of TNI-AL fleet development stage. However I also heard that the intention for UAV Carrier is one of big reasons for the MinDef and TNI-AL brass to look into this possibility. This part of reason why TNI-AL also order Akinci and Anka UAV from Turkey.

Off course they also talk need to have Fleet Command ship, and for Humanitarian need. So don't ask me reasonability on that, as in my opinion they can talk or put all the reasoning, but for me it is not much difference then Brazil reasoning on getting carrier. It is image building on all the reasoning base on. Having Carriers or LHD as Flag ship seems the main thinking from Indonesian brass, as much as thinking in Thailand or Brazil.

Still if that 'urges' already set, then better having 2nd hand refurbished Light Carrier then building LHD. It is USD 300 mio agains USD 900 mio difference, which is represent at least one Full.Size Frigate.

I am just amazed at the decision making process, and would love to be a fly on the wall when the planners discuss what they would buy. For most sane people, I would have thought it's a super simple math - more gen purpose OPV/frigate hulls with ordnance to match and decent ops budget vs a throphy platform with limited utility, but what do I know .....

I know that Indonesian defence procurement is convoluted and full of political baggage, but still .... this one seems like a colossal bad idea.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

La portaerei Garibaldi in pensione dopo 41 anni: a Taranto anche una petizione online per tenerla in città come museo galleggiante

Una disfida a distanza con Genova per il futuro della storica unità della Marina militare

bari.repubblica.it

Still if that 'urges' already set, then better having 2nd hand refurbished Light Carrier then building LHD. It is USD 300 mio agains USD 900 mio difference, which is represent at least one Full.Size Frigate.

In my opinion it is the opposite, better a new local made LHD, than an old second hand carrier from abroad.

1. I don't know where you get that $300 million from, but imagine the refurbishment/modernization costs of an almost 40 years old aircraft carrier, and after that the operational costs.
2. The contract from UAE for the 163 m LPD from PAL has a price tag of $408 million, an 'LHD-nized version' of this LPD should be less than $900 million. The operational costs of such a new and smaller vessel will be much lower. Besides that the training and maintenance costs will be lower.
3. It is political more acceptable to order from an own shipyard, instead to source it from abroad. It is also better for the development of the Indonesian defence industry and the local economy.

But yes, it is still an unnecessary waste of our limited defence budget.

 

[Ananda]

The USD 300 Mio is the rumours package cost that Fincantieri offering. From what I heard the package basically the cost to refurbished and rebuild the carrier. If we look Brazil cost to acquire HMS Ocean for GBP 85 Mio or less then USD 120 Mio, thus the Fincantieri offer could be the package of refurbishment is quite extensive.

Yes building LHD in your own yard can be beneficial to local industry capabilities. However USD 900mio for LHD actually already in low range ball park. The cost of LHD can add up easily toward more then USD 1.0 Bio. LHD is cost more then double and can be close to tripe of average high end LPD. Turkiye Anadolu expected cost just USD 600 Mio in early projection, but in the end according to Turkish media costing more then double of that early projection. I put Turkiye as example, cause it will cost Indonesia around that, as like Turkiye has to build infrastructure to support LHD.

This again if the condition the decision makers are already set on having light flat top, then fully refurbished 2nd hand flat top can still be better early 'experiment' learning cost. Off course the best course at this TNI-AL stage, is just drop this flat top urges.

 

[Ananda]

PT PAL sebut pemerintahan baru miliki target bangun kapal induk

Direktur Utama PT PAL Indonesia Kaharuddin Djenod mengungkapkan bahwa pemerintahan baru memiliki target membangun kapal induk untuk memperkuat pertahanan ...

m.antaranews.com

PAL CEO still talking about building 'carrier' type vessels in public. While at same time also shown the company focus are FMP and Scorpene projects. Scorpone plan to begin first cutting on 2025, while FMP progress he claim already build 110 blocks from 161 total and already construct 58 of them in the yards as joint modules.

 

[swerve]

The USD 300 Mio is the rumours package cost that Fincantieri offering. From what I heard the package basically the cost to refurbished and rebuild the carrier. If we look Brazil cost to acquire HMS Ocean for GBP 85 Mio or less then USD 120 Mio, thus the Fincantieri offer could be the package of refurbishment is quite extensive.

Ocean was built more cheaply & simply than Garibaldi. She's bigger, with space for 800+ troops, & carries landing craft, but unless you want to carry lots of people & equipment & land them somewhere she may be less capable.

A refit of Garibaldi probably includes some new weapons & sensors, e.g. Albatros NG (CAMM-ER) SAM to replace the Sea Sparrow. Ocean had a new radar & I think some associated kit a few years before being sold.

 

[Ananda]

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Off course it is still rumours, but Keris FB in my observation due got enough tidbits and 'intentional' leaked from MIC and MinDef sources. Also TNI-AL Chief did already talk in media on serious talk with Turkish yards for sourcing Frigate design.

This design in my opinion not inlined with current Ada Corvette or Istanbul Frigates, however seems more on enlarge Ada design but with seems 32 VLS. This if being choose potentially being work out in one of Batam base Yard (Palindo perhaps) that's currently also working with Turkish design Fast Missile Boats.

The political trend seems they want for the classes of Corvette and Frigate to be build in local yards. So if Turkish yard wants to get the deal, more likely they are doing it in local partner yard. Afterall if the likes of NG and Fincantieri also working out construction with local yard, then I don't see they will let Turkish yard doing in overseas yard.

What potentially the middle ground is the batch Will be build half-half, between local yard and Turkish yard. Even that can raise some political question, as MinDef already stated they will do their best to enhance domestic industry involvement.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

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View attachment 51803

Off course it is still rumours, but Keris FB in my observation due got enough tidbits and 'intentional' leaked from MIC and MinDef sources. Also TNI-AL Chief did already talk in media on serious talk with Turkish yards for sourcing Frigate design.

This design in my opinion not inlined with current Ada Corvette or Istanbul Frigates, however seems more on enlarge Ada design but with seems 32 VLS. This if being choose potentially being work out in one of Batam base Yard (Palindo perhaps) that's currently also working with Turkish design Fast Missile Boats.

The political trend seems they want for the classes of Corvette and Frigate to be build in local yards. So if Turkish yard wants to get the deal, more likely they are doing it in local partner yard. Afterall if the likes of NG and Fincantieri also working out construction with local yard, then I don't see they will let Turkish yard doing in overseas yard.

What potentially the middle ground is the batch Will be build half-half, between local yard and Turkish yard. Even that can raise some political question, as MinDef already stated they will do their best to enhance domestic industry involvement.

The half-half concept is done before, with the 105 meter Kapal Bantu Hidro-Oseanografi (BHO) from Abeking&Rasmussen for example. An understandable and in my opinion an acceptable concept for highly advanced/sophisticated/very large naval vessels.

Besides that the local shipyards can be overloaded if there are too many naval ship construction projects at the same time.





Something else.
Here a video of the sail and fly by parade of the navy today, 28 September, but i dont understand why this event was held on this date, i mean it is not 5 october.
(2) TNI AL Tunjukan Kekuatan Alutsista Buatan Dalam Negeri di Hadapan Jokowi dan Prabowo | Liputan 6 - YouTube

 

[Ananda]

Besides that the local shipyards can be overloaded if there are too many naval ship construction projects at the same time.

Actually the local shipyard association still complaining that they don't get enough Government projects (whether for Navy, Coastguard etc), as projects being prioritize toward SOE Shipyard. Recent influx of Navy projects whether newly build or MRO is just still smaller compared to what SOE Shipyards got.

There're enough capacities on local shipyard, questions which one already have track record enough to build Naval standard vessels. From Batam I can think two like Palindo (which build Bakamla cutters), Batamec, and one other yard. The rest scatter in Lampung (like Noahtu) and couple in Jakarta and Banten area. One or two in East Java and other one in Makasar I cam see taking projects for smaller patrol boats for Navy and Coast Guard.

So taking Frigate projects (Fincantieri seems confident enough with their local partner Noahtu), can potentially be done from Batam base shipyard. Palindo and Batamec come to mind. Thus outside PAL, there're at least 2-3 private yard that has track record to handle Corvette, Cutters, OPV up to Frigates size.

So at this moment they're not overloaded yet, bit still far from that. PAL that I believe already close to overloaded under their current capacities.

Add:
Seems some comment in Indonesian forums talk the design on previous post (Keris FB originated) is not coming from Turkey, but more from either French or Italian designs, and means it is still paper design. This if it's true already 'alarm' me personally. I also heard before the Turkish design they are courting not from Turkish own projects, thus also a paper design.

Unlike PPA or Arrowhead 140 or even Chinese Type 52D which basically already base on proven vessels, taking on ship projects base on paper design is two edges knives. Yes you can practically buy the license and develop be your own (like PAL did with Daesun Makasar LPD design), but for complex ships like Frigates it is also provide increase risk factors. This is actually happening with any other industrial projects, when you buy paper designs from someone else.

If they doing it, hopefully they are choose proven naval designers and yard as partner. One thing to use paper designs for Patrol Boats, OPV/Corvette. Other thing for more complex systems like in Frigates.

 

[ChestnutTree]

Seems some comment in Indonesian forums talk the design on previous post (Keris FB originated) is not coming from Turkey, but more from either French or Italian designs, and means it is still paper design.

The design came from the Fincantierri booth. I suspect it's an offer for something between the PPA and FREMM range that they could work with PAL or another local shipyard with.

 

[Ananda]

Thanks @ChestnutTree that's make sense on the potential work out with their local partner yard. I suspect it will be CODAD as local yard have no experience on working with Gas Turbine. If this is design from Fincantieri then at least more proven sources to begin with.

Add:

Looking on the design and Fincantieri video on FCX series, then seems the design base on either FCX30 or FCX40. Those design on current TNI-AL fleet more comparable with SIGMA 10514 rather the FMP or PPA or even other talk of Turkish Daersan F142 or Chinese Type 52D. In such it is more on Light Frigates design rather then current Fully Size Frigate standard.

Light Frigates design in the end more easier for local yard to work on. We already see with Noahtu OPV-90 which have much similarities on design with SIGMA 9814.

 

[Ananda]

TNI AL berencana geser 4 KRI kelas parchim dari Armada II ke Armada I

Markas Besar TNI Angkatan Laut berencana menggeser empat kapal perang Republik Indonesia kelas parchim dari Komando Armada (Koarmada) II ke Koarmada ...

m.antaranews.com

TNI-AL 2nd Fleet transfer 4 Parchim class Corvette to 1st Fleet. To give bit perspective currently TNI-AL being divided into 3 Fleets:

• 1st Fleet handle Western Indonesia Waters including Northern Half of Sumatra, Malacca Strait, Riau Islands and Natuna Waters. HQ in Tanjung Pinang Naval Base at Riau Islands.
• 2nd Fleet (use to be call main fleet) handle some part of Western Indonesia, Central Indonesia. This is included Southern Half of Sumatra, Java Sea, Makasar Strait, Bali Strait, up to Celebes Island. HQ in Surabaya Naval Base at East Java
• 3rd Fleet handle Eastern Part of Indonesia. This is the newest fleet with HQ in Sorong Naval Base at Papua Island.

The transfer could be related to preparation for new Frigates coming in, as usually the best TNI-AL vessels put under 2nd fleet. However I could also sense 1st fleet need more Corvettes to cover Malacca Strait entrance in Riau Islands and also Natuna sea.

Parchim class also even though is aging, still have anti submarine capabilities. Perhaps that's also the reason. Either way I sense it as part to beef up 1st Fleet coverage capabilities.

 

[Ananda]

Gray Hulls in the Gray Zone: Indonesia’s Conundrum in the South China Sea

Due to long-time neglect of its coast guard equivalent, Indonesia has been forced to use its navy to respond to China’s incursions – giving Beijing an excuse to do the same.

thediplomat.com

This article is again shown arguments why the need to have robust Coast Guard as maritime constabulary forces. Something that need to shown first on any potential maritime border dispute, before Navy come.

Also Maritime constabulary actually and should also take significant burden on security patrolling. Which's why patrol boats clases should be given to Coast Guard and Navy should stay more on combatants forces minimal OPV/Corvette above. This will going to be a problem when the Navy already relatively more mature then Coast Guard like situation in Indonesia.

Navy will not going to release their part of slice of cakes. They will see Coast Guard as rival agencies for job and budgets. Practically Coast Guard budget in Indonesia (Bakamla) only being provided more during SBY era. Those 10 Patrol Cutters they have basically build by SBY era.

Jokowi's first term era of negligence on defense in first term, make in the second term maritime security budgets being absorbed unproportionately by Navy. However Navy also keep building small coastal patrol boats, that should be giving in to Bakamla.

Bakamla it self already control by Navy officers that being seconded to Bakamla. Still this is not seems stop Navy appetites to keep lobbying to deprive Bakamla on budgets allocations. Now potential new Cutter only come from Japanese Grant.

I don't know the prospects of Bakamla, on paper the other maritime security forces (like Fisheries, Transport control, even maritime police, should be merge to Bakamla. Somehow still in paper and agencies bureaucracy rivalry and political factions behind them, seems make barrier on that. Will see how new Prabowo's administration action on this.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The USD 300 Mio is the rumours package cost that Fincantieri offering. From what I heard the package basically the cost to refurbished and rebuild the carrier. If we look Brazil cost to acquire HMS Ocean for GBP 85 Mio or less then USD 120 Mio, thus the Fincantieri offer could be the package of refurbishment is quite extensive.

Yes building LHD in your own yard can be beneficial to local industry capabilities. However USD 900mio for LHD actually already in low range ball park. The cost of LHD can add up easily toward more then USD 1.0 Bio. LHD is cost more then double and can be close to tripe of average high end LPD. Turkiye Anadolu expected cost just USD 600 Mio in early projection, but in the end according to Turkish media costing more then double of that early projection. I put Turkiye as example, cause it will cost Indonesia around that, as like Turkiye has to build infrastructure to support LHD.

This again if the condition the decision makers are already set on having light flat top, then fully refurbished 2nd hand flat top can still be better early 'experiment' learning cost. Off course the best course at this TNI-AL stage, is just drop this flat top urges.

The perfect solution to satisfy the fanboys, hypernationalistic politicians, journalists without any knowledge of defence and the dumb crowd: a 107 meter long aircraft carrier looking vessel with a flightdeck of 94×11 meter.

Damen holds joint steel cutting and keel laying ceremony for Portuguese Navy’s Multi-Purpose Ship - Naval News

Damen Shipyards Group held a joint steel cutting and keel laying ceremony of the Multi-Purpose Ship for the Portuguese Navy.

www.navalnews.com

It can be delivered in just two years and it seems to have a ridiculous low price of €132 million!

Novo navio multifunções da Marinha vai custar 132 milhões de euros e estará pronto em 2026

Contrato para a construção do navio é assinado esta sexta-feira numa cerimónia com a presença do primeiro-ministro, António Costa, da ministra da Defesa, Helena Carreiras, e do chefe do Estado-Maior da Armada, almirante Henrique Gouveia e Melo.

www.cmjornal.pt

(Correct me if i am wrong, because i don't speak Portugese)

 

[Ananda]

can be delivered in just two years and it seems to have a ridiculous low price of €132 million!

"No ski-jump", "Too small, no difference with LPD", Indonesian politicians and their crowds will always be some that complaining whatever the choices being taken . For me, I'm still believe that stretch 163m Makasar Class LPD that PAL build now for UAE, should be the choice rather then this LHD or Light Carrier talk. Still can happen tough when realization on Budget comes to Finance Guys filtering.

Anyway on PT. PAL TALK; https://jabar.tribunnews.com/2024/1...m-scorpene-selesai-2028-nyelamnya-lebih-dalam their CEO claim they will be able to finish their part on Scorpene EVO manufacturing by 2028. Presently their preparation is the facilities and supply chains logistics.

2028 is faster then previously talk on the calculation, but I suspect this is only the construction part. Not including the tests and systems integration and trials.

 

[swerve]

The perfect solution to satisfy the fanboys, hypernationalistic politicians, journalists without any knowledge of defence and the dumb crowd: a 107 meter long aircraft carrier looking vessel with a flightdeck of 94×11 meter.

Damen holds joint steel cutting and keel laying ceremony for Portuguese Navy’s Multi-Purpose Ship - Naval News

Damen Shipyards Group held a joint steel cutting and keel laying ceremony of the Multi-Purpose Ship for the Portuguese Navy.

www.navalnews.com

It can be delivered in just two years and it seems to have a ridiculous low price of €132 million!

Novo navio multifunções da Marinha vai custar 132 milhões de euros e estará pronto em 2026

Contrato para a construção do navio é assinado esta sexta-feira numa cerimónia com a presença do primeiro-ministro, António Costa, da ministra da Defesa, Helena Carreiras, e do chefe do Estado-Maior da Armada, almirante Henrique Gouveia e Melo.

www.cmjornal.pt

(Correct me if i am wrong, because i don't speak Portugese)

The article in Portuguese says that the request for proposals with a budget of €132 mn didn't receive any bids, so it was increased by €46 mn, & got four bids.
Estado disponibiliza mais 46 milhões de euros para a construção de navio para a Marinha
It was expected to take three years, from contract signing in late 2023 to late 2026. Building has just begun, & the delivery date doesn't seem to have changed.

 

[koxinga]

Ridzwan had highlighted this back in July and he is back with another update. It seems odd given that RTN reportedly changed its mind again earlier this year to accept it with the Chinese engine.

As he said, they might well be hedging their bets, given the recent change of government in Thailand.

Special Report: China scrambles to sell submarine as Thailand dithers

China appears to be hedging its bets after doubts emerge over its contract to supply the RTN with the S26T diesel-electric submarine

www.janes.com

 

[Ananda]

Ridzwan claim that he got from well place Indonesian source, I bet he got from Frenchie Salesman as he use to be Jane's correspondence. Frenchie Salesman also claim China give proposal to offer Type 52D as part of sweetener for S26T. Clearly he wants to give another negative rumours for his sales rep benefits. Not make sense on why much more expensive Destroyers become sweetener for relative cheaper Submarine. More likely it is the other way around.

From what I gather (part of finance guys sources), China already approached Indonesia side on Type 52D for sometime. The rival for Destroyer deal is Turkiye TF-2000. Frenchie Salesman off course against this as means this is against his Euro commissions benefits. This is why in his social media, you tube and media columns, he is now intensifies negative campaign against Chinese, Turkiye or other Non Euro defense procurement.

China seems offering this Sub as part of Type 52D offer, to be use as operational trials by Indonesian Navy. Basically take this one, and see if you like the Submarine performance sales campaign.

However Ridzwan seems correct on the number Submarine that Indonesian MinDef try to get. The 4 Submarine number come as part of that 7 tactical Submarine. There are already 3 DSME 1400 now this 4 Submarine is basically what MinDef and TNI-AL call in media as 'interim' Submarine.

The way I see it, the term 'interim' is also bit political term, as this is not really interim Submarine. However this is what they aim as 'fast' available Submarine. Scorpene will take time to build and operate. Thus they are looking on whose 'fast' available Submarine that are now in market. Chinese seems believe they can provide fast available Submarine within time frame that being envisage by Indonesian MinDef.

It's off course political in nature, as some factions believe if we buy US stuff then we also should buy Chinese or Russian stuff. For that it is also why Frenchie, Italian, Turkiye or even India become sources that're being look at. As that's will be the middle ground for not sourcing or much reducing defense materials procurement from either US or China/Russia.

 

[Ananda]

This is video from Indonesian Defense Enthusiasts channel that's part of Indonesian media being invited by NG to their facility in Cherbourg. NG then shown to Indonesian invitee media on the model for Scorpene Evo Full Li-Ion that's also become base on Indonesian version.

On other occasion PAL CEO talk to media that design for Scorpene Indonesia will be finalize and set soon. Perhaps this is why NG already willing to shown base model to the media. The NG spokesman also talk to Indonesian media that Scorpene design has basic length of 67m but cam be strech toward 77m. Brazilian Scorpene is around the other end of range (75/76m), which possibly Indonesian version will not be much differ then Brazilian ones.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

This is video from Indonesian Defense Enthusiasts channel that's part of Indonesian media being invited by NG to their facility in Cherbourg. NG then shown to Indonesian invitee media on the model for Scorpene Evo Full Li-Ion that's also become base on Indonesian version.

On other occasion PAL CEO talk to media that design for Scorpene Indonesia will be finalize and set soon. Perhaps this is why NG already willing to shown base model to the media. The NG spokesman also talk to Indonesian media that Scorpene design has basic length of 67m but cam be strech toward 77m. Brazilian Scorpene is around the other end of range (75/76m), which possibly Indonesian version will not be much differ then Brazilian ones.

Were the Brazilian Scorpenes/Riachuelo class boats not 70,6 m long?
From which i understand the basic Scorpènes (CM-2000) are 61,7 m long, and the ones with AIP (AM-2000) 70,0 m. But it is until now unclear how much space the Li-Ion batteries require in the boat, as much as an AIP-module, less or more?


Here we see a video of KRI Soeharso 991 departing with medical equipment and medicines to four southern Pacific countries: Fiji, Papua Nugini, Solomon and Vanuatu.
Momen Pelepasan KRI Suharso-991 - YouTube

 

[Ananda]

Video: Brazilian Navy’s 1st Scorpene Submarine ‘Riachuelo’ Performs Static Dive Test - Naval News

Brazil's first Scorpene-class submarine, Riachuelo, successfully completed its static dive test on 20 November, a decisive procedure used to assess parts of its seaworthiness.

www.navalnews.com

There're few differences from various sources on S-BR length. As this two sources can shown, where Naval News stated 72 and HI Sutton put around 75. I suspect the difference whether the length calculate from front to rudder or front to screws.

Either way the Evo Full Li-Ion version that's going to be build for Indonesia shares much similarities with S-BR version. I suspect they are lengthening both Brazilian and Indonesian version compare to Indian, Chile and Malaysian ones due the changes on Li-Ion cells to compensate no AIP.