Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Sandhi Yudha]

Several countries interested in buying ex-Spanish Navy Aircraft Carrie

Several countries interested in buying ex-Spanish Navy Aircraft Carrier Principe de Asturias

armyrecognition.com

More then a decade news, however shown the interest for a carrier has been there all along.



Similar pattern now shown when TNI AL already make another visits to another potential second hand light carrier that's schedule to be retire soon. Personally I don't like it, not understand why they not learning from Thailand light carrier situation, but then again understand on political attraction for some brass in MinDef to exert image building, especially with domestic audiences.

Still if this indulgence adventure for LHD can be hold back even temporary with a second hand carrier, when realism of costs to maintain and operating carriers can shown depriving Naval capabilities (as Thailand case shown), then perhaps it's better to be entertained.

It's sad that so many politicians and 'armed forces professionals' still have such infantile dreams.

The two oldest vessels of the San Giorgio Class of LPD/LHD are scheduled for replacement, with the replacement planned for delivery around 2028-2031.
If they want a discount aircraft carrier/kapal induk-kapal indukan to satisfy and impress the press, fanboys and the dumb crowd, they should buy these ones.

Dearsan

www.dearsan.com

TNI AL datangkan kapal PPA dari Italia dan Fregat buatan Turki

Jajaran TNI AL akan memperkuat kekuatan militer dengan mendatangkan kapal perang untuk berpatroli atau yang biasa disebut Pattugliatore Polivalente ...

www.antaranews.com

Officially anyway there're no talks from TNI-AL on carrier or LHD. So far they're talking on Frigates and Submarines for foreseeable future. In latest media announcement, TNI-AL Chief talk about Italian Frigate (PPA) but also Turkish Frigate. PPA schedule later this year, however he mentioned the Turkish Frigate will come in two years.

PPA can come earlier as basically Indonesia taking over two of already build Italian PPA. However the only Frigate program that Turkiye build is Istanbul (Milgem) class frigate. Also so far the potential export according to Turkish sources is within the region in middle east.

Now some local defense enthusiasts and insiders, including the Frenchie Salesman talk about potential Daersan F-142 as the Turkiye offer to Indonesia. Base on Daersan offer in last Indodefense 2022.

During Indodefense one other Turkiye shipyard TAIS also offer their 65m Fast Missiles Boats. The deal then shown they are working with Indonesia Batam base shipyard Palindo to license and build the design in there. Will Daersan doing the same thing ? As basically F-142 still a paper design.

Still more detail information needed on this Turkiye Frigate. However so far with Arrowhead 140 and PPA have in common of 140+m dimensions and 5500-6000 ton weight. Something that F-142 also have similarities.

One thing for clear, any other Frigates outside Red-White/Arrowhead and Submarines outside Scorpene will be build outside PT. PAL yards. Whether this will be overseas Yard or local Yard with license or Work Share agreement, that's not clear yet.

With all this in the schedule build up plan, personally I just don't see LHD can be afforded. Well what do I know anyway.

After two frigates from the Netherlands, two Danish-British frigates and two Italian frigates, now plans for two from Turkey?
Amazing.

 

[Meriv90]

Very Egyptian like, are there other countries that have such logisti/sourcing variety?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The UAE Navy perhaps....
Piriou/DCNS, Constructions Mécaniques de Normandie (CMN), Fincantieri, Koninklijke Schelde/Damen, Lürssen Werft, Abeking & Rasmussen, Shin Yang and PAL.

And also the Royal Saudi Navy.

 

[Ananda]

two frigates from the Netherlands, two Danish-British frigates and two Italian frigates, now plans for two from Turkey?
Amazing.

Plus potential Two Chinese Destroyer.

are there other countries that have such logisti/sourcing variety?

Egypt

Still, I'm bit doubt Indonesia will get to Egypt level on variation of sources. Simply because Indonesia did not have financial backers on procurement like Egypt. Asside US support, do remember Egypt got financial backers from Oil Rich kingdoms.

There's talk before on Indonesia will get French Fighters, US Fighters, Euro Fighters, Russian Fighters, Korean-Indonesia Fighters and Chinese Fighters in the inventory at the same time. However toward the end potentially Rafale and either F-15EX or KF-21. While the Hawk, Flankers will be run down and even (if the rumours prove right) potentially F-16 will not be upgraded further and follow on to be running down.

There's one sanity check so far that prove steed fast. The budget availability from finance people. Those in the end will put break on what can be sources. So far they still manage 'relatively' to put check filtering.

 

[76mmGuns]

Yes, I agree the drive to have LHD at this stage mostly more to Political PR then real capabilities build up. That's why in my previous post I said that it can happen in Indonesian case. Politically, image building can be more important.

For that I recommend and hope they just buy second hand carrier, refit that as command ship and UAV carrier. That way, the brass and politicians in MinDef can have their image building, but still have money left to build better capacity to the navy.

Cause having completely reasonable non political image building in Indonesia decision making is simply not fall through under current political environment. Thus the best way as local enthusiasts like me can hope is middle compromise but with sanity check.

I hope it's a sensible decision.

I remember seeing one of the Canberra Class ships docked in Sydney. Damn impressive looking big ship. Not useful in a heavy front line battle, but very impressive looking

 

[Ananda]

hope it's a sensible decision.

Personally still big doubt on that. Mostly because when I try to find the reasons for LHD or Light Carrier, there're two thing that seems keep coming out:

• For Logistics and Emergency causes,
• For command ship and SUV carrier

I believe those two reasons can be done more economically with LPD, more appropriate the UAE Al Maryah class LPD that PAL currently build. Getting LHD or Light Carrier without proper escort build up and increase in operational budget first, will only results Thailand situations. It is going to be white elephant ship good for image building on occasion parade patrol.

On the matter of fleet build up, I still use Prabowo's presentation as reference. In there he doesn't mention any LHD, and only put 12 Frigate and 7 tactical and 2 Attack Submarine. Thus eventough there's momentum on this LHD, but seems not what can be said as definite development plan yet.

Add:

TNI-AL news channel video on their Chief explanation for Interim Submarine. Basically that's been said before as Scorpene program need 7-8 years to be ready, there's need to fill the gap on that period. What's additional info is his explanation that they are looking for Submarines that's will be ready (for TNI-AL operationally) within next 3 years.

Thus within that period, I don't see they are talking of new Submarine. Either second hand ones or taking over Submarine thats currently being build (like what they've done with 2 PPA).

Personally I tend to see second hand 209-1400 that's being retired by current users. Looking that, again the potential are either Brazil, Turkiye or South Africa ones. Those are the ones that being talk or planned to be retire or discarded (due to operational budgetary reasons).

There's rumours again that Fincantieri offering similar schemes of PPA procurement with Italian Submarine. Again it is rumours, but Fincantieri delegation has been known come to Indonesian MinDef and TNI-AL with Submarine offer. Perhaps they're offering new build ones, but then again with the aim to get operational Submarine within 3 years, either it is second hand ones or current building ones. It could be Fincantieri offer refurbished last batch of Sauro Submarines ? The detail of their offer not yet clear.

Chinese already known offering package of S26T Submarine with Type 52D Destroyer Indonesia holds second meeting with CSSC on S26T submarine as China sweetens deal with destroyer. This is the Submarine they're offering to Thailand that the Thais seems having indecision situation, although from Thai media their Political establishment still want to goes ahead. However with new government on Thai, I don't know the latest info.

For me there's one thing that interesting. Perhaps it is editorial error, but the TNI-AL channel newsman talk about TNI-AL German order that need 7 years to finish. Clearly the Chief talk about Scorpene, which is as German can be as goat can fly. So could be the interim Submarine is German made boats ?

 

[Ananda]

Seems this photos of Noahtu OPV 90/98 model, has been circulating around within Indonesian Enthusiasts social media. This models from my understanding being ordered by Noahtu for their own marketing or display purposes, also being send to Defense institution like MinDef and TNI-AL.



The models seems still in line with the weapons systems that being speculate as the OPV specs, which are 76mm gun, 8 SSM, Decoys launchers and CIWS. Some enthusiasts speculate on Leonardo Twin 40mm gun (as being put in Makasar class LPD).

However I suspect it could be Aselsan Gogdeniz CIWS. As there're strong speculation those OPV SEWACO will use combo of Leonardo and Aselsans guns and systems.



Just my opinion, those OPV seems suitable enough to be build in numbers replacing old East German Parchim Corvette as back bone of TNI-AL Patrolling Flotillas. Off all depends on the results of those OPV performance. After all those two OPV's basically the prototypes.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Seems this photos of Noahtu OPV 90/98 model, has been circulating around within Indonesian Enthusiasts social media. This models from my understanding being ordered by Noahtu for their own marketing or display purposes, also being send to Defense institution like MinDef and TNI-AL.

View attachment 51732

The models seems still in line with the weapons systems that being speculate as the OPV specs, which are 76mm gun, 8 SSM, Decoys launchers and CIWS. Some enthusiasts speculate on Leonardo Twin 40mm gun (as being put in Makasar class LPD).

However I suspect it could be Aselsan Gogdeniz CIWS. As there're strong speculation those OPV SEWACO will use combo of Leonardo and Aselsans guns and systems.

View attachment 51730View attachment 51731

Just my opinion, those OPV seems suitable enough to be build in numbers replacing old East German Parchim Corvette as back bone of TNI-AL Patrolling Flotillas. Off all depends on the results of those OPV performance. After all those two OPV's basically the prototypes.

Looking to the shape of those miniature CIWS (and the lack of sensors on top), they really look more like the OTO Melara Twin 40 mm in stealth cupola.

Anyway, i really like to have such a OPV-90 model in my room!

 

[Ananda]

they really look more like the OTO Melara Twin 40 mm in stealth cupola.

Guess you're right, further check on the OPV model it's more like this one:


Well if this the case, on the configuration in the model is the final cut, then seems it is Leonardo that got all the gun system. The speculation is the SSM will use Atmaca. This raise question how much Leonardo and what Aselsan-Havelsan part.

Will this going still Leonardo and Aselsans combo in SEWACO or Leonardo them more dominant? Fincantieri already bring Noahtu as their preferred Domestic Yard on doing Naval job in Indonesia, could this means in the end the SEWACO on this OPV more Leonardo then previous speculation of Aselsan dominance?

Seems the final configuration still reserve potential twist.

 

[koxinga]

If most of the equipment are Turkish, there is also another possible option, the Kaan-SNG-40/70T from Ermaksan/MKE, which is also based off the OTO Fast Forty heritage.

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Naval 40 mm Turret from Ermaksan | TURDEF

SAHA Expo Defence and Aerospace Exhibition opened its doors. Many Turkish manufacturers are exhibiting their solutions.

turdef.com

 

[Ananda]

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5 TNI-AL officers already seconded to Italian PPA Montecucolli, which at this moment part of Italian Carvour Task Force that conducting Asia Pacific tour. One of the officer is Naval Lt Col or equivalent to Commander rank. Potentially he will be the XO for the first TNI-AL PPA.

TNI-AL put this in their social media, shown they are communicating to public on their preparation toward PPA operational. Still putting 5 officers as part of job training, will not mean the Indonesian PPA order already being prepared for transfer soon. Seems from my understanding there's still financial technicality finalisation between Indonesian MoF (finance people) toward financial institutions (Euro and Middle East base), that's preparing credit line execution. Thus they haven't send the full compliment of crews toward final preparations.

 

[Ananda]

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Well, they launch those OPV 90. Means they are entering SEWACO integration phase. This enthusiasts X account seems belong to someone that having access to the yards.

Seems the model description similar to the poster they are putting on the launch ceremony. The CIWS and main gun indicating Leonardo designs. Still Aselsan and Havelsan also has similar designs. Will see the end final instalation will be, hopefully will not be long. I really hope this design will be Parchim replacement. 16 of this OPV 90 will have better capabilities then 16 Parchim Corvettes.

Add:
Another Indonesian Enthusiasts put slightly better picture in X of this first OPV-90 after entering water.

 

[Ananda]

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MinDef official X on the launching of the OPV

 

[koxinga]

Looks nice with strong Sigma influence.

Indeed, a key question is whether MinDef will run this as a proper Parchim replacement program, and whether the design will be given to other shipyards much like the LST program.

 

[Ananda]

Until now I still find hard to believe some outside design consultants are not involved with NOAHTU/DRU yard. The design shown too much lines similarities with SIGMA 9814 that Damen pitching to Vietnam. Noahtu/DRU yard can say it is their original design. Still for a yard that has no prior track record for Naval Combat Vessels on that size, I still have reserve much doubt it is their own design.



Above is PAL design for 95m OPV, something that shown also similarities with Noahtu OPV 90/98 that's just being launch. So indication shown potential the design is not sole proprietorship own by Noahtu, at least the basic design.

Which back to the condition whether the design can be replicate to other Yards. If the design meet the expectations, considering not only LST but how KCR 60 design also being workout with several yards, then I say it is very probable to do that.

 

[koxinga]

deleted

 

[Ananda]

Fincantieri GM Naval Ship division talk to Indonesian media (1:19) on the transfer of technology for Indonesia as part of 2 PPA procurement. It is more on MRO and Local Logistics to support the ship operational.

With CNN Indonesia (2:45) he also talk on discussion to build 2 other similar vessels in Indonesian yard. This is already being rumours on potential PPA Batch 2, especially when Fincantieri already choose Batam base shipyard Noahtu as local partner for naval building.

There's also rumours on PAL will engage for FMP (Arrowhead derivative) batch 2 for another 2. This is what being rumours as part of 12 Frigate program (that) Prabowo's talk in his presentation. 4 FMP, 4 PPA, but then it's not being decide whether the other 4 will be NG FDI or Turkish Frigate. There's also rumours potential Damen still lobbying for another 2 SIGMA 10514 fully build in PAL or other Indonesian yard.

Again as usual with Indonesian defense procurement there'll be chaotic lobbies with potential multiple platforms. But I suspect in the end it will be down to 2 or 3 platforms.

 

[Ananda]

Video from Indonesia MinDef channel on the the launching of first OPV 90, penant number 391. In the background in video, the sister ship (pennant number 392) waiting in background. Rumours the launching of the sister ship will be differed only in days.

Using pennant number with prefix 3 shown for TNI-AL, it is classified as 'Eskorta' or escort vessels. The Eskorta category on TNI-AL usually refered to Frigate and Corvette. While combat fast patroling vessel usually have prefix 6, and coastal patrol boats have prefix 8.

Thus this is in my opinion confirm my suspicion before, eventough it is call OPV, operational wise TNI-AL will use them as Corvette. They have credentials for corvettes with SSM and potentially Mobile towed array sonar systems.

If the design prove meet the criteria acceptance, this potentially can be Indonesian equivalent to Chinese Type 056 Corvette design. Able to build on multiple yards, and low cost enough to build in numbers. The design potentially like Type 056 can be adapted to Coast Guard Cutter too.

So, I'm bit delighted for this OPV 90 design, as seems TNI-AL finally found replacement for the Parchim. Something that can become their real backbone, no matter the talks in media and forums focus more on flashy vessels like Arrowhead, PPA, FDI or F-142 Frigates. Those platforms realistically will be limited in numbers. This OPV design can be more realistic being multiplying in numbers.

 

[Ananda]

Video seems from one of Yard employees or someone with access to the yard. Shown the 2nd OPV-90 pennant number 392 readying for launch. While the 1st OPV-90 391 already in the pier being prepared for SEWACO installation.

Add:

Correction bit:
The OPV-90 391 actually not in the pier, but being move after launch to the graving dock. Seems both of OPV-90 will be move there for SEWACO installation.

Add:

They launch 392 today:

 

[Ananda]

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There's enthusiasts that bring back TKMS offer to PAL couple years ago. In sense TKMS want to open 209-1400 line in PAL Submarine facilities in Surabaya. This is in my opinion good offer as the facilities is build with DSME help for 209-1400.

This is also shown that TKMS that offering Brazilian Tupi class as Interim Submarine for TNI-AL. The Submarine then will be bringing to Surabaya and refurbished under TKMS supervision to be 'rebuild' toward latest TKMS 209-1400 standards. It is also will include rework on DSME 209-1400 to be rectified with TKMS standard.

I don't know the progress on this, but this is actually the best way to get Interim Submarine for TNI-AL. If we back to last year Prabowo's presentation of 7 Tactical Submarine and 2 Strategic Submarine then the 7 can be result from 4 ex Tupi and 3 Nagapasa.

So let's see the progress on this Interim Submarine progress. My suspicion that this Interim Submarine still calculated base on Tactical Submarine classification.