Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

Indonesia and France Discuss Key Details on Scorpène Evolved Submarines - Naval News

Indonesian and French officials convened, to discuss the construction and operational support for two Scorpène Evolved submarines that the Indonesian Navy (TNI AL) will operate.

www.navalnews.com

NG and PAL have discussion on production detail scheme for the two Scorpene Evo. Seems they will not wait for the first sub to finish, thus they will conducting staggered start of construction for both submarine in the same facilities simulatanously.

In my previous posts I put talk from couple years even from my understanding from 2021, on discussion and offer from TKMS to refurbishment not only DSME 209-1400 Nagapasa class but also ex Brazil 209-1400 Tupi Class. Further digging, seems the offer related to TKMS offer for 214-1800. My understanding TKMS will provide supervision to help PAL facility for full 209-1400 line to basically modified Nagapasa class and refurbishment even rebuild ex Brazil Tupi Class. However the 214-1800 will still build in TKMS facility.

Seems as MinDef and PAL preference goes to NG, and NG will be the partner to enhance PAL submarine facility. For that it is rumours (which Naval News also put), NG then will also help PAL on modification for Nagapasa class.

Thus the talk on Interim Submarine then now increasingly shown it will be done by overseas Yard. Considering with PAL and NG fully committed for Scorpene building (potential could be 2+2), and also potential modification of Nagapasa class.

Then the question who will be able to provide 2 or even 4 Submarines with 3 years ? Budget wise also need to consider as rumours the cost that MinDef wants is USD 300-350, something that fall in ball park of DSME 209-1400. This I heard from finance people source that say MoF only agree USD 600 and potentially up to USD 800 for 2 interim submarine.

With that costs range (unless being add), seems eventough it is being talk (as article put) that Fincantieri, TKMS and even Turkish yard already offering, I have suspicion that either DSME (now Hanwha Ocean) or Chinese yard that can meet the budget range.

Interesting development, whether getting refurbished second hand 209-1400 or new ones (which potentially) can be Chinese. I put the Chinese can be a surprise candidate yard, not only on budget price (as they want to cut margin for export order as shown in Pakistan and Thailand case), but also the speed of their yard capacities.

 

[Ananda]

Better video for the launching of second OPV-90 # 392. However I put the video, as in latter part, Navy Chief talk something that I already suspect. For TNI-AL, eventough this vessels call OPV, but operational wise it is treated as Light Frigate which similar as Corvette.

The vessels will have weapon and sensors systems to find threat from Aerial, Surface, Underwater and ECM. Thus clearly it's OPV in name only. The vessels will be sloted to equip new 3rd Fleet in Eastern Indonesia.

391 being name KRI Raja Haji Fisabillah, while 392 being name KRI Lukas Rumkorem.

 

[swerve]

What air defences will they have?

 

[tonnyc]

What air defences will they have?

If you are asking about surface-air missiles, none.

Looking both old news articles and current ones, it's intended to have a 76 mm gun, 35 mm CIWS, 20 mm as secondaries, and decoy launchers. I speculate that the 76 mm gun would be the Leonardo Super Rapido, the 35 mm CIWS will end up being Escribano 30 mm Guardian, and the decoy launchers will be Terma's. All three companies were mentioned here as suppliers, but the exact models are not mentioned and are my educated guesses.

 

[Ananda]

For CIWS as in previous page, I'm speculating for Aselsan Gogdeniz 35mm as option against Rheimettal 35mm. @Sandhi Yudha put speculation on oto mellara twin 40mm, and base on Antara article below, seems Sandhi's right.

TNI AL perkuat armada dengan tambah dua Kapal perang

TNI AL memperkuat armada tempurnya dengan menambah dua kapal perang offshore patrol vessel (OPV) yang merupakan buatan dan dibangun oleh industri ...

www.antaranews.com

Laksamana Muhamad Ali juga mengatakan bahwa kapal ini dilengkapi dengan persenjataan canggih seperti meriam 76 mm dan 40 mm leonardo, meriam 20 mm escribano, serta sistem peluncur surface to surface missile roketsan.

Leonardo will got both primary and secondary (as CIWS), Escribano will got short range ship defense, and Roketsan will got SSM. As this quote come from TNI-AL Chief, I suspect the weapons configuration is final. Aselsan and Therma will got sensors and combat mgt system.

Thus the aerial defense then will come from primary and CIWS, Surface from SSM and primary gun plus Escribano 20mm as short range defense. Personally I'm still more intrigue with what's for underwater defense. Asside speculation for SEA light weight towed array sensors, light weight torpedoes also being speculate going to be fitted later on. However those underwater systems so far still being speculation.

SEA to Provide KraitSense ASW System for OPV Programme

www.sea.co.uk

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Thank you gentlemen, i just know now that TNI-AL will take the Escribano Sentinel 30 as secondary RWS. I never heard before of that brand.

I don't need to tell that taking an Oto Melara Marlin 30 mm or Aselsan SMASH 30 mm was a more logic choice. Not only those two companies are already involved in this project (you get one less supplier), but TNI-AL/BAKAMLA also already use those two 30 mm gun.
But hey, this is an Indonesian project.

 

[Ananda]

https://www.eme-es.com/sentinel-20/

If the quotes from Antara's right, this vessels will use Escribano 20mm not 30mm. Those using Oerlikon 20mm, which TNI-AL already use that for years. I suppose that's mean they can use similar ammo with Oerlikon 20mm that's already in inventory. Actually it is reasonable choice for logistics ammo pov.

As choices for Corvette design in replacing Parchim Corvettes, asside for this Sigma influence OPV-90, there are other Corvette program in another private yard PT. Karimun. The design around 12m shorter then this one, doesn't have hangar but having similar size helicopter deck. Also the design have capabilities to launch RHIB from stern and equip with SSM too. This design is enlargement of Presidential Ship KRI Bung Karno that replace Presidential Ship KRI Barakuda (which base from FPB-57).

Thus TNI-AL now work on Corvettes design (or call it Light Frigate) of 98m and 76m. Personally I prefer this OPV-90 design as Parchim replacement, as size do matter for capacity growth. Still I got feeling both designs can being work out as Parchim replacement.

 

[Ananda]

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This video from one workers from Noahtu/DRU shipyard, shown both OPV-90 already in the graving dock, being prepare for installation work. However this is not the main reason I like to talk about in here.

This graving dock is main asset for Noahtu Shipyard. By size of Length 220m, Width 32m, and depth 11m, is actually one of big graving dock in Indonesia. Comparable in size with PAL graving docks. Thus as Noahtu already been choose by Fincantieri as local production partner, then if they got PPA Batch 2 contract, this Noahtu yard will be the place to do it.

Looking on their facilities, eventough so far theu manage to build LST, Tankers, Cargo Ship and now OPV/Corvette, got impression it is not entirely meet Fincantieri standard. So Fincantieri must refurbished some of facilities to meet their standard, and I believe it is going to be part of offering contracts.

The size of facilities is suitable enough tough, at 100,000m2+. Their graving dock already big enough so does their production yard and slip way. Guess the upgrade mostly in equipment. Well, this just my assesment base on my time when still worked in Corporate Banking, assessing few Shipyard that we are financing.

 

[swerve]

https://www.eme-es.com/sentinel-20/

If the quotes from Antara's right, this vessels will use Escribano 20mm not 30mm. Those using Oerlikon 20mm, which TNI-AL already use that for years. I suppose that's mean they can use similar ammo with Oerlikon 20mm that's already in inventory. Actually it is reasonable choice for logistics ammo pov.
...

According to the Escribano website, the gun in the Sentinel 20 is the Oerlikon KAA, so it must be able to use the same ammunition. Escribano's an engineering company set up 35 years ago that moved into making RCWS & the like.

Transferable skills . . . . consider Molins, which in the 1930s made machines for making cigarettes. Made an autoloader for the 6pdr guns during WW2, mostly for small naval vessels such as MTBs, but also an aircraft version, mounted on a small number of Mosquitos. Quite similar mechanically to what they were already doing.

Went back to cigarette-making machines after the war. My grandmother worked there in the 1960s, doing administration, & translations for their customers in Spain & Latin America.

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia: 'green water navy'

https://www.sea.co.uk/defence/undersea-battlespace/towed-array-sonar KraitSense is basically compact towed array sonar. Thus actually choosing this (if the customer really TNI-AL), then it's actually can be better then most ASW suites they have. SEA only says their Southeast Asia customer...

www.defencetalk.com

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Indonesian Enthusiasts put in his X photos of latest progress Hidro-Oceanography Vessel build in Palindo yard in Batam under contract from Fassmer and Abekin-Rasmusen as prime contractor. As @kato put before, the hull will be then send to Germany for fitting and installation.

Base on the foto, seems the progress in Palindo yard close to completions, and wait transfer to Germany for finalisation. This vessels also being prepared as one of mother vessels for SRV.

 

[Ananda]

For that I recommend and hope they just buy second hand carrier, refit that as command ship and UAV carrier. That way, the brass and politicians in MinDef can have their image building, but still have money left to build better capacity to the navy.

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Off course it is still rumours, that instead building LHD, MinDef and TNI-AL decide to procure Garibaldi. The price of below USD 300 including Fincantieri refurbishment and half a dozen AV-8B with parts and some spares.

However it is lesser evil for me personally then pushing LHD at this stage of TNI-AL reshaping the fleet development. Yes procuring 40+ years old light carrier is insane, but much less insane then pushing for LHD procurement. At least they can play command ship and UAV carrier concept for at least a decade plus more, before taking on next stage. All with more economical cost. Afterall LHD will cost them close to a billion USD.

Some rumours that I heard, this is part of switching deal with Fincantieri from before 6 newly build FREMM plus 2 old Maestrale as interim Frigates. Now it is potentially become 2+2 PPA (with the second batch build by Fincantieri in local shipyard partner) plus one refurbished Light Carrier.

 

[koxinga]

I get the desire for the LHD (and there is some use for HADR) and if it comes with a full refurbishment at the price, it could be reasonable, but operating AV-8Bs are truly insane.

For one, most of TNI-AL's AO (area of operations) should be reachable by TNI-AU's land-based fighters and two, those are 30 years old, subsonic planes that will be maintenance heavy, given the few remaining operators and USMC transitioning out of the Harrier by 2026.

 

[Ananda]

Operating LHD or Light Carrier during current TNI-AL stage of development, for me is already insanity enough. Are they not learning enough from Thailand ?

Still just like when Thai got ex Spanish Navy AV-8A, it is soon become unoperational. Thus if the rumours have some base, the only thing that I see possible on operating old AV-8B is some thinking on learning curve on operating carrier borne VTOL.

If they acquire Light Carrier as learning curve for LHD operation latter on, then even AV-8B can be use as training ground. At least they can use that as evaluation phase on future LHD or Light Carrier operations. However even that, personally I still say it is wasting budget resources. At least for current stage of fleet development.

 

[Ananda]

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The Hidro-Oceanography Vessel launch from Palindo Shipyard in Batam. Still in primer paint, as the Vessel will be put in Transporter to be shipped to Abekin-Rasmusen facility in German for installation of SEWACO and finalization.

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[Sandhi Yudha]

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View attachment 51783

The Hidro-Oceanography Vessel launch from Palindo Shipyard in Batam. Still in primer paint, as the Vessel will be put in Transporter to be shipped to Abekin-Rasmusen facility in German for installation of SEWACO and finalization.

Add:

They do not give any data of the specifications of this new ship, but it looks larger than the France made Rigel class, which has a length of 60 m. If i'm not wrong, the ship we see besides the new hydrographic ship is an 58 meter long FPB-57 Mk.II

Well, this is the first partly local made hydrographic vessel, as far as i know. The 45,50 meter long KRI Pollux 935 with an endurence of only 6 days, is just a patrolboat without hydrographic equipment. Let alone the 21 m glasfiber KAL Vega.

 

[Ananda]

Kapal BHO buatan dalam negeri bakal perkuat TNI AL pada akhir 2025

Kapal Bantu Hidro-Oseanografi (BHO) Ocean Going buatan galangan kapal dalam negeri PT Palindo Marine Batam bekerja sama dengan galangan kapal Jerman Abeking ...

m.antaranews.com

More info on the ship, it is also stated as before already being talk that there are two BHO (Hidro-Oceanography) ships being build. One with Germany Contractor (this one) and other with UK contractor. The one with UK contractor also the hull being build in Indonesian yard, however this one from my understanding the UK contractor also going to do installation on Indonesian partner yard under their supervision.

The one with UK design and contractor is primarily build as mother ship for SRVS, while this one with Fasmerr and Abekin-Rasmusen will able to be use as SRVS mother ship but more as secondary role.

All this shown TNI-AL want to improve capabilities of their oceanography fleet. The talk also in improving sensors on existing ones. Clearly in my opinion mapping the whole undersea topography and current in Indonesian water and EEZ is part of that. This is also related to TNI-AL intention to improve their Submarine operation and also ASW capabilities.

 

[x100 XKR]

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View attachment 51783

The Hidro-Oceanography Vessel launch from Palindo Shipyard in Batam. Still in primer paint, as the Vessel will be put in Transporter to be shipped to Abekin-Rasmusen facility in German for installation of SEWACO and finalization.

Add:

The FPB57 next to it is more interesting IMO. Normally, a fast attack craft of FPB57-size is either a gun boat (ala Cyclone class) or a missile boat (ala Combattante III, Type 143 etc) but this one has no missile, yet sporting 2 heavy torpedoes (I assume locally built SUT?). What's the back story on that one? A ship that size has too little endurance to be a stand alone ASW platform, too small to project power, and too lightly armed to be a strike element.

All the talks about LHD and a used carrier is plain bonkers .... Logistics, training and operating budgets for those would be significant. Perhaps there is some untapped oil/gas reserve that will provide massive revenue windfall somewhere that we have not heard about ..... who knows?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The FPB57 next to it is more interesting IMO. Normally, a fast attack craft of FPB57-size is either a gun boat (ala Cyclone class) or a missile boat (ala Combattante III, Type 143 etc) but this one has no missile, yet sporting 2 heavy torpedoes (I assume locally built SUT?). What's the back story on that one? A ship that size has too little endurance to be a stand alone ASW platform, too small to project power, and too lightly armed to be a strike element.

All the talks about LHD and a used carrier is plain bonkers .... Logistics, training and operating budgets for those would be significant. Perhaps there is some untapped oil/gas reserve that will provide massive revenue windfall somewhere that we have not heard about ..... who knows?

Yes, the four FPB-57 Mk.II vesssels are armed with a Bofors 57 mm (and also a Bofors 40 mm if i'm not wrong) and two 533 mm torpedo launchers for the IPTN built SUTs. From which i remember these four vessels are equipped with the Hollandse Signaalapparaten WM-28 fire control radar and PHS-32 sonar.

 

[Ananda]

To add what Sandhi put, FPB-57 that PAL make on that configuration basically divided in to Nav II version and Nav V version. Nav II basically have torpedoes for ASW and Nav V have SSM for Anti Surface.

I suspect the introduction of Parchim is one of reason why they don't pursue more on FPB-57 of all version. That and Asian Financial crisis. They are then want to replace FPB-57 with KCR-60 or PC-60. Parchim in the end despite all the limitations, still considered better platform for patroling and ASW.

In the end MinDef then also goes with Project 41 which 41 combat vessels of existing fleet, from Frigate, Corvette and Patrol Boat being refurbished in local yards. That's from my understanding as stop gap measure until newly build replacement can be source or build. It is deemed politically more acceptable then getting interim second hand vessels. That FPB-57 in Palindo yard, I believe part of that project 41 refurbishment.

 

[Ananda]

La portaerei Garibaldi in pensione dopo 41 anni: a Taranto anche una petizione online per tenerla in città come museo galleggiante

Una disfida a distanza con Genova per il futuro della storica unità della Marina militare

bari.repubblica.it

But what will be the fate of the Garibaldi? End up scrapped? It already happened a few years ago to the Vittorio Veneto, a significant amount of time after its final decommissioning: the cruiser went to a Turkish shipyard. For the Garibaldi, however, Indonesia has reportedly come forward. However, it is not excluded that the Garibaldi could be sold to some other Navy. And then there is a third hypothesis with Genoa and Taranto in a sort of long-distance challenge, which involves reusing the ship, after a renovation, as a floating museum of naval and sea history.

The quote I take from that La Repubblica article. This is already a month old, that basically talk about the option for Garibaldi fate. Either scrap it, sell it, or turn it into museum. It's a month old article, but it is shown there're quite serious approach from Indonesian side to look into Garibaldi condition.

Don't ask me why, as I point out on my previous post, getting LHD or even 2nd hand Light Carrier is "insane" and wasting resources at this stage of TNI-AL fleet development stage. However I also heard that the intention for UAV Carrier is one of big reasons for the MinDef and TNI-AL brass to look into this possibility. This part of reason why TNI-AL also order Akinci and Anka UAV from Turkey.

Off course they also talk need to have Fleet Command ship, and for Humanitarian need. So don't ask me reasonability on that, as in my opinion they can talk or put all the reasoning, but for me it is not much difference then Brazil reasoning on getting carrier. It is image building on all the reasoning base on. Having Carriers or LHD as Flag ship seems the main thinking from Indonesian brass, as much as thinking in Thailand or Brazil.

Still if that 'urges' already set, then better having 2nd hand refurbished Light Carrier then building LHD. It is USD 300 mio agains USD 900 mio difference, which is represent at least one Full.Size Frigate.