The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

rsemmes

Member
He is very lucid. He says exactly what has to said.
If there is an invitation to NATO it's for the all Ukraine, that's obvious. There has never been any question about some part of Ukraine inside NATO and others not.
Zelensky can't never hint at territorial concession to Russia. The basis of any conversation on this topic is that the Donbas and Crimea are legaly Ukrainian territory because that's what it is. There is no departing from that.
Suggesting, even indirectly, that some territories currently under Russian control could be given to Putin as a gesture of good will to start negotiations would be a terrible mistake because it would imply that Putin has some rights or at least good reasons to deserve to own these land areas.
You start with an "if", that, in this situation, is already being delusional.
He hinted.
He invited himself, that is being delusional.

In the interview there was a "the world leaders", so not him, he is the one who can do nothing. He is lucid there.
 

Fredled

Active Member
@rsemmes There is a broad consensus that Ukraine should apply to NATO and that their application should be accepted among all NATO members, save Hungary. So it's not delusional to expect such invitation in a foreseeable future. It's increasingly likely.
 

Fredled

Active Member
@Rob c I agree with what you said. I was talking about the vocabulary and basic sentences to use in formal communications with the press, the public and the international community. At no moment, the idea of giving up land to Russia should be mentioned, even thought it's what will happen at the end.
 

rsemmes

Member
@rsemmes There is a broad consensus that Ukraine should apply to NATO and that their application should be accepted among all NATO members, save Hungary. So it's not delusional to expect such invitation in a foreseeable future. It's increasingly likely.
Ukraine is too corrupt to join NATO on NATO's own words.
By "broad consensus" do you mean Zelensky and you? Do you include Trump?
"At least seven countries are against Ukraine’s immediate membership to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), including Germany and the United States, as well as Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia, Belgium, and Spain, according to Politico, citing four anonymous U.S. and NATO officials and diplomats."

To expect that in the future things will go your way because you want them to go your way is what I will call delusion.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
A hilarious illustration of why Russian officialdom should not be taken at face value just about ever. Here's a list of MoD publications that claim to have been engaged in combat with Ukrainian units that don't exist... They're not lying so much as fabricating stories with no connection to reality at all. It isn't dishonesty, it's fiction. I'm being sarcastic of course.

 

Fredled

Active Member
@rsemmes There is no such a thing as "immediate membership". The only thing that can be immediate is marking the application as receivable. When this is done, it takes at least two years before membership is offered.

There is consensus that Ukraine will join NATO, but it's also understood that it's not feasible as long as the war is going on, and that it will take several years from now on, and probably one or two years after the end of hostilities. This is neither new or extraordinary. It's what has been said for almost a year already.
Politico said:
Scholz told reporters during U.S. President Joe Biden’s visit to Berlin last week: “We are making sure that NATO does not become a party to the war, so that this war does not turn into a much greater catastrophe.”

However, the officials who spoke to POLITICO sought to underline that neither the U.S. nor Germany are ruling out Ukraine’s eventual accession to the alliance.

The Biden administration’s position has long been that admission to NATO would occur after the war ends
 

rsemmes

Member
@Fredled
My guess is that Político knows there is no "immediate membership".

"marking the application as receivable/(received?)"
"before membership is offered"
"will join NATO"
"eventual accession to the alliance"
"should apply to NATO"
"the application should be accepted"
And all for:
"to expect such an invitation in a foreseeable future"
When is that future?

There is a war now and Zelensky invited himself to a NATO that has being keeping its distance from the very beginning.
Playing with words is not now, Ukraine joining NATO in 20 years (if ever, Putin can actually do something about that) has nothing to do with the war going on now.

Zelensky keeps dreaming with NATO, NATO is not fighting this war for him; betting on NATO is delusional.

Edit.
Sorry, "hopes", not "dreams".

Zelensky said Sunday that Kyiv was hoping NATO foreign ministers meeting in Brussels with Ukraine's top diplomat would issue "recommendations" to grant his country a membership invitation.
...
Russian President Vladimir Putin has warned against any moves to place Ukraine under NATO's security umbrella.
"Such a potential decision is unacceptable to us," Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said.




 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
We've got some movement in Toretsk where Russian forces are trying to take the central mine and refuse mounds, and in Chasov Yar where Russian forces have grabbed a piece of the central factory complex. Both of these are the key points for each town. The fall of each to Russia would be the beginning of the end for Ukrainian resistance in those towns. At this point I don't think Russia will take either town before year's end, unless something drastic happens. Note in both areas Russia has been mostly stalled for some time now.
 

Fredled

Active Member
According to Heinrich Torsten report published 24h ago (so not 100% up to date but the last one):
Kursk: Ukrainians retook some areas west of Pogrebki (Russian and N-Korean graveyard ==> LOL @KipPotapych).
Oksil River, Kupiansk region: Russian arranged a second crossing over the river. Took Vyshnieve. Got close to Terny.
Toresk: Heavy fightings around and perhaps already inside Toresk. No clear situation report there at the moment.
Pokrovsk: Russian took Lisyvka (or Lysinka?) and Zhovte. Small villages in the east and south east of Pokrovsk.
Kurakhove: Russians are in Sentivka and near Stare Terny, at the left end of the reservoir where Ukes blew up the dam crossing a few weeks ago. Surprisingly, Ukrainians are still in Romeniivka in the east of the pocket, or at least one hamlet left of it. It's not clear whether this is intentional or not.
Velyka Novosylka (West of Vuhledar): Russians took Roz-Dolne and Nowy Komar ("New Mosquito" ???).
 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
According to Heinrich Torsten report published 24h ago (so not 100% up to date but the last one):
Kursk: Ukrainians retook some areas west of Pogrebki (Russian and N-Korean graveyard ==> LOL @KipPotapych).
Only RU and NK, not Ukrainian?

Regarding North Koreans:

IMG_8123.jpeg

Source: x.com. In spite of the claims by the Ukrainian officials and military personnel, we still haven’t seen any evidence of the Koreans participating in any fighting.

Oksil River, Kupiansk region: Russian arranged a second crossing over the river. Took Vyshnieve. Got close to Terny.
Russian troops had either crossed back the river or were pushed back. The area is back under the Ukrainian control/grey zone.

IMG_8127.jpeg

Source: x.com. Deepstate and much of everyone else state the same.

Toresk: Heavy fightings around and perhaps already inside Toresk. No clear situation report there at the moment.
Russians have been inside Toretsk since the end of summer. There is nothing unclear about that. I do not remember exactly, but Wikipedia says they entered the city on August 22.


Per Deepstate, this is what it looks like today:

IMG_8125.jpeg

Russia has controlled half of the city since about October or so. There has been some back and forth, but they pushed Ukrainians out of the areas they recaptured for a brief period of time.


in other news, days after Umerov (UA minister of defense) visited South Korea asking for military assistance, an ask that was declined, Koreans started testing their UAVs on T-80s and BMP-3, according to the Ukrainian outlet (in Ukrainian):


Some were saying (hoping?) these vehicles will eventually end up in Ukraine. This can probably be taken as a hard no, as well as a confirmation of the refusal on the assistance Umerov had asked for.


The USA has “publicly” called on Ukraine to lower the mobilization age to 18. There have been quite a few articles on the subject over the past few days, but I am going to quote this one from the FP to reference a few other quotations.


Ukraine should “look hard at the ages of individuals that they are willing to recruit, balancing the need to invest in future generations with the current requirements of the battlefield”, the senior US official said.

Ukraine has said it needs 160,000 soldiers to fill out its ranks, which the US sees as “on the low end”, the official said.


I wonder what the baseline is that they are coming from. From all the reports that I saw in the past long while, I’d agree with the assessment above.

“Let there be no speculation — our state is not preparing to lower the mobilisation age,” President Volodymyr Zelenskyy told parliament last week.

Zelenskyy’s office on Thursday strongly pushed back against the US request and sought to shift the blame on delays in the supply of western weaponry.

“Ukraine cannot be expected to compensate for delays in logistics or hesitation in support with the youth of our men on the frontline,” said Dmytro Lytvyn, the top communications adviser to the Ukrainian president.


While the former is pretty clear and the reasons behind it, the latter would be quite “sensational” otherwise, but with Ukraine it isn’t. I mean a country claiming to be fighting an existential war refusing to mobilize men (most of whom would go to a great length to avoid being mobilized) blames others who don’t owe them a thing and, moreover, because of whom the country still exists in the first place. The response, really, should be “Ok, then”. I mentioned it several times previously, but this tone and expectations are rather ludicrous given the situation the country is in. Another article mentioned Blinken (I think) saying that if they mobilize more men, the US would train them and so on (take it as a hearsay since I do not have a link handy). Kirby suggested as much and quoted in this article as well:

While the Biden administration has eventually approved many of Kyiv’s requests for weapons and given permission to use them inside Russia, officials believe this will not be enough to have a decisive impact.

US national security adviser Jake Sullivan last week said: “Our view has been that there’s not one weapon system that makes a difference in this battle. It’s about manpower, and Ukraine needs to do more, in our view, to firm up its lines in terms of the number of forces it has on the front lines.”

US National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby on Wednesday said Washington was “ready to ramp up our training capacity if they take appropriate steps to fill out their ranks”.


Basically we are escalating for no good reason. This article at the Defense News talks about this escalation with no real returns as far as Ukraine is concerned.


UK’s Spectator talks the same:


This CNN article, another one of many, that interviewed some soldiers at the frontline talks about shortage of men:


“I cannot say exactly how much time we have, if there is any time at all,” said Kashei, a callsign, a reconnaissance sniper. “Now they are pushing their troops to the frontline as much as possible. And then at one point they will all go for an assault. They can go very far. In one day, let’s say.[…]

The drone crew skip through their video library of the past weeks’ costly and chaotic withdrawals. There is the moment when three Ukrainian troops walk into a factory in Selydove a month earlier, advised it is under Ukrainian control, only for one of them to be shot down by Russians occupying the building.[…]

Recruitment brings its own issues. The defense of Selydove, one commander said, was bolstered by 300 fresh recruits, sent to the frontline directly and expected to undergo basic training in the trenches. Errors by command are increasing, several soldiers said, sharing an episode in which a unit of Ukrainian soldiers was attacked by drones on the frontline, after two Ukrainian commanders mistakenly failed to identify them.[…]

Mistakes are commonplace in the chaos and horror of a battlefield, yet this openness and candor is rare from troops who a year earlier would have spoken with fierce pride about Ukraine’s summer counteroffensive in Russia’s Kursk region.

“I have no people. I’m f**king alone. I’m f**king tired,” said Kotia, a callsign, another reconnaissance sniper. “I love my job, but we need other young people to love this job too. Our country is awake, but people in it are not. Guys are dying here. This is trash.”[…]


What they say about the Russian troops:

East, the drone commander, said he was assigned to the area in August. “During this time, we have never gone to the training grounds or replenished our personnel,” he said. The Russians “are constantly staffed, constantly trained, there are certain rotations, replenishment of personnel. We constantly hear about it from intercepts, that they have replacements and rotations.”

Other interesting tidbits from the article:

One commander told CNN that troops around Pokrovsk had been ordered to shoot unidentified persons on sight, in fear of Russian reconnaissance groups advancing.[…]

A drone video circulating shows a small house on the edges of Petrivka, a village closeto Pokrovsk, on November 13. The footage shows a local in an orange shirt, guiding advancing Russian troops to a basement where Ukrainian soldiers were hiding.


Frankly, I have no idea what the thought process is currently and how this is supposed to suddenly turn around.

This article discusses various proposed “peace” and otherwise “cease-fire” plans:


Most make zero sense. For example, the Germany scenario after the WW2. Completely different aims in the entirely different perspective. Israel type of scenario makes even less sense provided the scope of the conflict and the size and “quality” of the threat. And so on.

It appears that there is a “crackdown” taking place on the AWOL folks. The fellas are offered to return to their units until January 1 and “the salary payments will resume” as well as other subsidies and “social guarantees”. The article doesn’t talk about the “or else” part and I didn’t look into it further (my guess is there is none).


A recent Financial Times article reported that the AWOL is now reaching 18% of the enlisted personnel (I do not have the link handy, so take it as a hearsay).

An AP article talks about desertion:


Zelensky now talks about “giving up” land for NATO membership:


Good luck! Some suggest that there is a “consensus”. There isn’t, clearly.
 
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