The Current Conflict In Syria

Strannik

Member
That of cause is no secret to anybody, but I certainly did not expect facts appear in US "mainstream" before I got really old.

US has no evidence of Syrian use of sarin gas, Mattis says

Now Mattis admits there was no evidence Assad used poison gas on his people: Opinion

Member banned for post in violation of the Forum Rules. Ban is permanent as this was not the first time the member had been an issue, and had been previously banned.
-Preceptor
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
That of cause is no secret to anybody, but I certainly did not expect facts appear in US "mainstream" before I got really old.

US has no evidence of Syrian use of sarin gas, Mattis says

Now Mattis admits there was no evidence Assad used poison gas on his people: Opinion
@Strannik how about doing some fact checking instead of cherry picking "evidence" and I use that term rather
loosely where it's concerned to the Newsweek article and it's writer that you cite. I would actually consider that it's more in line with what generally accumulates in the bottom of ones dunny. It took me less than 2 minutes to obtain video of the relevant news conference where Gen Mattis made the remarks and the Newsweek article most definitely took him out of context.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
In light of the announced US withdrawal, Syrian and Russian forces are entering YPG-held territory in and around Manbij, and the YPG is supposedly withdrawing from the area. This creates an odd situation where US forces to the north and north-west are blocking Erdogan from attacking the SDF, while to the south-west Russian troops are blocking Erdogan from attacking the SDF. So far the village of Arima is the center of the SAA presence, and Russian MPs are located there.

Сирийская армия входит в Манбидж

EDIT: Some more updates, there is unconfirmed info of an agreement between Russia, Turkey, and the Kurds, to surrender the area west of the Euphrates to the Syrians, with some of the border area going to Turkey, and a joint commission to make sure anyone associated with the PKK leaves Manbij.

Манбидж. 28.12.2018: Уверения в преданности и любви
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Clearly Bolton turned Trump around. The Mattis resignation blowback made Bolton’s job of delaying the exit easier, I doubt he had to use his resignation card. That will come soon.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Meanwhile in Idlib; al-Nusra has actively gained territory from pro-Turkish groups, capturing armored vehicles, and other equipment, in the process. It looks like, if the US doesn't withdraw and the Kurds don't strike a deal with Assad (and they really should given US behavior in the recent past), then Erdogan might get the green light from Russia-Iran for an operation in Rojava, in exchange for an SAA push in Idlib. This simple but effective ploy of putting Erdogan on a collision course with the US while Assad profits by getting to take more rebel held areas means that if the US stays they actually simplify things for Russia and Iran.
 
There is a lot of talk in Western Media that ISIS will be able to re-establish itself in Syria if the US pullout. Of course their argument completely overlooks the fact that Assad and Russia have also cleared ISIS from large areas in Syria, including Deiir Ezzor where they had a large presence, and presumably will continue doing so as fast as they can.

So what is the actual report card? Which side has been most effective at eradicating ISIS and which one is best positioned to continue the job and why?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
There is a lot of talk in Western Media that ISIS will be able to re-establish itself in Syria if the US pullout. Of course their argument completely overlooks the fact that Assad and Russia have also cleared ISIS from large areas in Syria, including Deiir Ezzor where they had a large presence, and presumably will continue doing so as fast as they can.

So what is the actual report card? Which side has been most effective at eradicating ISIS and which one is best positioned to continue the job and why?
I don't buy that argument at all. The US and the SDF/YPG made incredible gains against ISIS, seizing Raqqa and the area around Tabka airbase, when the race was on against Assadist forces. However after the behind-the-scenes deal was struck regarding the de-facto partition of Syria along the Euphrates (with some minor exceptions), and ISIS was chased into a small, geographically less relevant area, the US-backed offensive slowed to a crawl. While the Syrian government forces and allies actively and aggressively went after any ISIS-held territories, leaving only small roving bands in the desert, from where I sit it appears that the US and the SDF/YPG have intentionally allowed ISIS to retain a small patch of territory. Given that the US has no legal justification for it's presence in Syria, allowing ISIS to remain on the map is a good way to continue claiming that the US is there to "fight ISIS", even though it's also openly being said that the US is there to counteract Iranian influence.

On the subject of report cards, I don't think it particularly matters. When ISIS became the focus of their efforts each side was able to eliminate them rapidly and fairly effectively, albeit with significant foreign support (the US backing the SDF/YPG, Russia/Iran backing the Syrian government). Either side is fully capable of crushing the last ISIS foothold rapidly and decisively. Assad is prevented from doing so because the enclave is on the east side of the Euphrates. What prevents the SDF/YPG? How little time did it take to seize Raqqa and how relatively easily were great resources brought to bear on the problem? How long since then have the Kurds and their backers been butting heads with a much smaller ISIS in the south-east? In my opinion, therein lies the key to understanding this situation, and any claims regarding the US being some sort of guarantor to ISIS not re-emerging should be disregarded as blatant lies.

Or, if one is in a more cynical mood, interpreted to the effect that the US might go back to pumping weapons into questionable hands in Syria, should that be the only way to prevent a complete victory of a pro-Iranian Assad. In which case the US withdrawal could indeed lead to a resurgent ISIS, not because the US was holding them back, but because US actions would contribute to their resurgence. Though honestly, I don't think that's a likely outcome. With a US withdrawal, a major Turkish operation in the north, we would probably see a concentrated effort on the part of Syrians, Iranians, and even the Iraqis (sealing their side of the border), to finish off the last ISIS pocket with extreme prejudice.
 
The Israeli Air Force seems to have little difficulty destroying the Pantsir S1 systems. Is there anything that Syria/Russia can do to stop this happening?

They do not appear to be using the S-300 to attack Israeli Aircraft. Would this be because they are out of range or because the S-300 cannot see them? Is Israel using their F-35's for these raids? Is Syria fearful if they use their S-300 Israel will just destroy it and be able to attack with even more impunity?

I can't believe the Russians are too happy with the status quo. Iran and Israel are still sniping at each other which is probably not in their interests and Israel seem to have more control of Syrian Air Space than Russia does. Will Russia escalate and further update Syrian Air Defences? With Syria's main International Airport being subjected to routine bombing raids it certainly appears better Air Defences (or the ability to retaliate) are sorely needed.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Israeli Air Force seems to have little difficulty destroying the Pantsir S1 systems. Is there anything that Syria/Russia can do to stop this happening?
What makes you draw this conclusion? Two Pantsyr systems have been destroyed so far, each by a sophisticated PGM, and as best as I can tell, each was unmanned at the time. Meanwhile they've done quite a bit of work intercepting Israeli PGMs. As far as stopping it, Russia could, I suppose, make good on their threat to use their EW and SAMs to back up the Syrians. It would certainly raise the threshold for a successful strike.

They do not appear to be using the S-300 to attack Israeli Aircraft. Would this be because they are out of range or because the S-300 cannot see them? Is Israel using their F-35's for these raids? Is Syria fearful if they use their S-300 Israel will just destroy it and be able to attack with even more impunity?
Ok so a few things I mentioned earlier about the "Syrian" S-300s. They're S-300PM systems that were transferred directly from a Russian air defense unit near Murmansk. They carry Russian IFF, and are accompanied by Russian military personnel. They were also delivered in record time, and as best as I can tell Syria didn't pay for them. While I'm sure there are trained Syrian operators to push the proverbial button if the decision is made, I seriously doubt Syria actually controls these systems. It's overwhelmingly likely that they are for all intents and purposes a Russian air defense element with some local staff. Their delivery was designed to send a political message to Israel, not provide an actual capability upgrade against the Israelis.

I can't believe the Russians are too happy with the status quo. Iran and Israel are still sniping at each other which is probably not in their interests and Israel seem to have more control of Syrian Air Space than Russia does. Will Russia escalate and further update Syrian Air Defences? With Syria's main International Airport being subjected to routing bombing raids it certainly appears better Air Defences (or the ability to retaliate) are sorely needed.
They've been sorely needed. A tiny inventory of modern Pantsyrs and relatively modern Buk-M2 SAMs is hardly sufficient. However Russia has been happy to let Israel do what they will in Syria for quite some time. I strongly suspect that this is exactly what Russian leadership does want. They want Russia on the sidelines as a broker for both sides, while themselves neutral. It makes it easier for Russia to achieve their own geopolitical objectives without coming into direct conflict with Israel or Iran.
 
What makes you draw this conclusion? Two Pantsyr systems have been destroyed so far, each by a sophisticated PGM, and as best as I can tell, each was unmanned at the time. Meanwhile they've done quite a bit of work intercepting Israeli PGMs. As far as stopping it, Russia could, I suppose, make good on their threat to use their EW and SAMs to back up the Syrians. It would certainly raise the threshold for a successful strike.
Yes I have since read other opinions that losing 2 Pantsyr systems in exchange for stopping a lot of PGM's is not a bad outcome at all. Still the inability to hurt the Aggressor by destroying some of their Aircraft must be a major concern.

I noticed Syria threatened to attack TLV Airport in retaliation if Israel continues to attack DAM, which I don't believe they will dare to do. But do they have any credible weapons to attack with if they choose to? I imagine they would really need to saturate the Airport precinct with rocket fire to have any chance of some getting through. Response would be disproportionate.

Ok so a few things I mentioned earlier about the "Syrian" S-300s. They're S-300PM systems that were transferred directly from a Russian air defense unit near Murmansk. They carry Russian IFF, and are accompanied by Russian military personnel. They were also delivered in record time, and as best as I can tell Syria didn't pay for them. While I'm sure there are trained Syrian operators to push the proverbial button if the decision is made, I seriously doubt Syria actually controls these systems. It's overwhelmingly likely that they are for all intents and purposes a Russian air defense element with some local staff. Their delivery was designed to send a political message to Israel, not provide an actual capability upgrade against the Israelis.
Interesting points about the S-300. Russia is still saying training has not been completed so the system basically is not online yet. They can only use this line for so long.

They've been sorely needed. A tiny inventory of modern Pantsyrs and relatively modern Buk-M2 SAMs is hardly sufficient. However Russia has been happy to let Israel do what they will in Syria for quite some time. I strongly suspect that this is exactly what Russian leadership does want. They want Russia on the sidelines as a broker for both sides, while themselves neutral. It makes it easier for Russia to achieve their own geopolitical objectives without coming into direct conflict with Israel or Iran.
You are probably right about Russian intentions. I would back them in a game of Geopolitical Chess against most Countries at the moment, including the USA. Their decision to intervene in this conflict and the strategies they have used have been daring, fascinating and very influential to the outcome. On a Political level their achievement of turning their relationship with Turkey from the brink of War after the SU-24 shoot down to arguably a closer ally than some of their NATO partners was astonishing.

Interesting to see if they build up Syria's "tiny inventory of modern Pantsyrs and relatively modern Buk-M2 SAMs". Surely they want their Client to be in a stronger position to defend itself than it is now?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yes I have since read other opinions that losing 2 Pantsyr systems in exchange for stopping a lot of PGM's is not a bad outcome at all. Still the inability to hurt the Aggressor by destroying some of their Aircraft must be a major concern.
I mean... all they have that's truly modern is SHORAD so... and remember Israel used to run wild through Syrian airspace, until they lost an F-16. Now they stay out and use stand-off munitions. Honestly they literally have a handful of modern SHORAD, a handful of old but upgraded mid-range systems, and a bunch of borderline obsolete gear

Interesting points about the S-300. Russia is still saying training has not been completed so the system basically is not online yet. They can only use this line for so long.
They don't have to use any lines. The S-300 deployment is already out of media attention, aside from a few dedicated places. They will quietly leave it alone, unless it becomes necessary to escalate.

Interesting to see if they build up Syria's "tiny inventory of modern Pantsyrs and relatively modern Buk-M2 SAMs". Surely they want their Client to be in a stronger position to defend itself than it is now?
What do you mean? Are Israeli airstrikes a real threat to Assad's regime? More-so then widespread US military presence in the Kurdish held regions, Al-Nusra presence in Idlib, and Turkish occupation of chunks of northern Syria? As best as I can tell the Israelis can't even prevent Iran from increasing their presence in Syria, merely punish them for it with some attrition.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Russian and Syrian forces have appeared north of Manbij, as the US withdraws. This comes after recent ISIS attacks on US service members. However it's important to remember that the Turks aren't sitting passively either. Erdogan recently visited Moscow, and after the Al-Nusra victories in Idlib, he is likely more amenable to trading things he doesn't control for a free hand against the Kurds. If the Kurds don't hurry up and come to an agreement with Assad, they may find themselves in the same boat as they did with Afrin.

Российские патрули к северу от Манбиджа
 

Thüringer

Member
I think we need peace with Assad. No matter what but Germany must be able to send back the Syrians that went here. Assad is not a good person but propably the best option.

What we dont need in Syria are islamist fractions and warlords.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think we need peace with Assad. No matter what but Germany must be able to send back the Syrians that went here. Assad is not a good person but propably the best option.
However you have to be careful in doing so because sending them back to a country where they may be killed by the regime or by militants within the country is a breach of international law and immoral.
What we dont need in Syria are islamist fractions and warlords.
Unfortunately it is far to late for that because they are already there and will be difficult to root out. Syria is now the playground for regional geopolitics with guns.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
What we dont need in Syria are islamist fractions and warlords.
I mean... Assad is just the biggest of the warlords. And the one with sufficient international connections and local support to pummel the rest of them into compliance. If he succeeds in dying of old age and passes the "kingship" to his son or otherwise chosen successor, we can start talking about a dynasty, but we're a far cry from that yet.
 

Feanor

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Staff member

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Some minor updates.

Armenian sappers have deployed to Syria to assist with mineclearing, and one of them was wounded, but is apparently in no danger.

Wall

A few shots of the venerable BS-3 and newer MT-12 anti-tank guns.

Сирийские БС-3 и МТ-12

Apparently the F-117A is back in action, with reports that 4 of them deployed to the Middle East, possibly due to their ability to carry larger munitions internally.

Американские самолеты F-117A снова развертывались на Ближнем Востоке
 
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