Pakistan test its first cruise missile "BABUR"

[adsH]

Do you think without GPS the accuracy of they missile to hit target will be? the Use of cruise missile is to hit thar target with pinpoint accuracy like hit a car? if falls 10m. here and their , then it is not good then blastic missile because nowdays using GPS blastic missile as becoming ore accurate

Sorry I appologise the Tomahawk relies on stored mapps and inertial and terrain contour matching (TERCOM) radar guidance system, there is no GPS involved here. And it attacks static targets. i was refering to smarter weapons (optronic seakers).

 

[SABRE]

Then tell us who and when is that Chinese official you are refering to, and what exactly have they said.

Very strange the Chinese official or state run publications kept quiet and not even a "CONGRADULATION" from them whose so called budy budy.

USA also kept quiet and said not much. I think both China and US already knew what is going on, or they secretly talked about it (negotiated) before the test.

You want me to tell you the names of the chinese officers that I know or the ones who called up FO after the test?

Well either way I cant tell their names. I dont know the ones who called from China & I dont think its a good idea to tell the names of the ones who work at Karachi's Chinese counslate. Never tell your sources.

They did "congradulate" but not publicaly. Probably to avoid getting Pakistan into trouble. Their congrates might have put some doubts in them that they helped. But they did say "congrates' Mushi & Shaukat thats what I was told.

Strange , you cliams that u have link to high offices and didn;t know the news which shook the entire World and Bring down Khan, the Nuclear Bomb blue Print given by Lybia came from pakistan, and was written in Chinese as comfermed by IAEA that is First Generation of Chinese Nuclear BOmb. Well i think your High offices didn't told u about it?

What I ment was what do you mean by Nuke Bomb. By nuke bomb I understand Nuclear Weapon + the warhead. I wanted to wheather u ment Nuke formula or the whole thing.

YOu jump to conclusions very soon. Anyways we are going out of bounds here. Non of that matters anyways.

 

[pshamim]

Sorry to say that a lot of discussion has detoriated to being totally irrelevant. If Pakistan says that it is an indigenous effort then we may have to accept it until someone refuting the claim comes up with a proof. Every thing I have read here is purely based on speculation and conjenctures.


I would like to see something from a neutral expert before I can debunk Pakistani claims. Until then, peace and a sincere request to you guys to return to the subject matter. I like to know what the strategic implications are going to be in the region after this test.

 

[webmaster]

I like to know what the strategic implications are going to be in the region after this test.

Thats right Shamim. This has been the trend on all discussion forums not just here that people are discussing where the technology came from rather than what strategic implications would it have. It seems especially Indians are creating this mess from forum to forum and thread to thread. They want to talk about the history of the missile rather than how it would effect India's future wars...

Pakistan needed this technology and Pakistan has it - lets talk about how it is going to change the strategic landscape in South Asia.

 

[pshamim]

Pakistan needed this technology and Pakistan has it - lets talk about how it is going to change the strategic landscape in South Asia.

I hope that they listen to us and tell us what the real implication will be in the India-Pakistan theatre after this test.

 

[Salman78]

Anyways back to the topic. Is it possible that a missile can incorporate both Galileo and GPS as a means of guidance. I know the military grade signals which allow for a one meter error margin are not available freely but what if a missile uses both the systems in parallel to increase the accuracy further down to a couple of meters.

The built-in GPS navigation system in my Honda Accord has a 5 meter accuracy. I have tested it dozens of times.

It is not difficult at all these days to mate a map with GPS. results are astounding. This is an off the shelves technology these days.

 

[doggychow14]

Any help to Pakistan recieved on the babur being chinese or US would be denied. It would be a strict violoation of the non proliferation treaty.

 

[ashblackhawk]

The built-in GPS navigation system in my Honda Accord has a 5 meter accuracy. I have tested it dozens of times.

It is not difficult at all these days to mate a map with GPS. results are astounding. This is an off the shelves technology these days.

The maximum available accuracy for commercial GPS systems is 10m. 5m accuracy is too much, as military limits are imposed below 10m range. Dont know how Honda came up with such good system. :coffee

 

[SU 30MKI]

The only danger India is facing that, Pak take 2 or 3 missile to destroy target now it will take only one missile.

India will now speed up it anti missile shild, since anti missile sheld are capable to shooting such missles.

 

[P.A.F]

well according to my knowledge even the best missile defence would find it very very hard to destroy a cruise missile. firstly they fly extremly low and secondly they fly to fast

 

[kashifshahzad]

well according to my knowledge even the best missile defence would find it very very hard to destroy a cruise missile. firstly they fly extremly low and secondly they fly to fast

Same as a sidewinder misses its target in a close dogfight.the missile goes straight and dosent follow the target caz its too close

 

[mysterious]

Yes it is extremely difficult to first of all detect a cruise missile and secondly, to take it out. The following is what I wrote around the end of 2003 in relation to this same topic in an other forum:

"US forces use a number of methods to deal with cruise missile threat like using Stinger missiles especially after the Block 1 upgrade but it still has major limitations keeping it from being the primary source of countering a cruise missile. Even when used through the Avenger system, it still isn't perfect at all.

Then there's the Sentinel AN/MPQ-64, but again, it also lacks joint overhead surveillance connectivity, has limited radar range, and lacks ability to see over the horizon, all of which are required for effective cruise missile defense like the Avenger.

Then there's PAC-3, it is quite good as compared to the two mentioned above but once again, its effectiveness against the cruise missile is again limited by its inability to see over the horizon.

The only thing that is expected to fulfil the role of being a cruise missile killer is MEADS which will be inducted around 2012.

In the meantime, it will have to be a mixture of early warning systems, existing air defence systems, etc to try and take up the threat of a cruise missile attack to some effectiveness as stated above, but cannot be totally relied up on to eliminate the threat entirely."

Certainly things have changed since I posted that but I Hope it helps understand some basic points. Cheers!

 

[SU 30MKI]

well according to my knowledge even the best missile defence would find it very very hard to destroy a cruise missile. firstly they fly extremly low and secondly they fly to fast

During recent tests, conducted in September and November 2004 at White Sands test range, PAC-3 missiles engaged multiple targets, both short, long range and cruise missiles, with "ripple fire" attacks. In the most recent test, four PAC-3s were "ripple-fired" at two incoming targets. All targets were destroyed by the first missile. Test objectives included demonstrating the system's ability to detect, track and engage a TBM and cruise missile simultaneously, and validating the performance of several components of the PAC-3 Missile that were part of on- going cost reduction initiatives.

http://www.defense-update.com/products/p/patriot-pac3-abm.htm

 

[gf0012-aust]

well according to my knowledge even the best missile defence would find it very very hard to destroy a cruise missile. firstly they fly extremly low and secondly they fly to fast

I'd have to say that thats old information. Modern integrated defences using PESA/AESA systems on platforms such as the E2 Hawkeyes are able to identify and track cruise missiles - and the worst air to air missile is faster by a considerable margin compared to a subsonic cruise missile.

The USN trained against Mach 6 "russian" targets for 20+ years - systems such as RAM are more than capable of intercepting and destroying a supersonic cruise missile - let alone a subsonic or transonic one. They trained against their own mach 3.5 cruise missile simulators (and still do)

If you look at a force using PAMs/AEGIS and AWACs/AEW&Cs, fighters running lookdown/shootdown - then the odds shift considerably.

 

[aaaditya]

i remember reading in an article that phalcon can detect a cruise missile at a range of 600kms ,let us assume that every awacs has this capability,does it mean that it can do any one function at a time (like aircraft tracking or missile tracking) or both the functions simultaneously,also can an awacs control and guide surface to air missiles against cruise missile?what are the capabilities of e3 awacs in these aspects?

 

[SABRE]

i remember reading in an article that phalcon can detect a cruise missile at a range of 600kms ,let us assume that every awacs has this capability,does it mean that it can do any one function at a time (like aircraft tracking or missile tracking) or both the functions simultaneously,also can an awacs control and guide surface to air missiles against cruise missile?what are the capabilities of e3 awacs in these aspects?

Gary said E2 not E3 but that doesnt matter, both have same function & purpose. Anyways nice question. I want the answer too.

 

[aloof.prodigy]

One thing is sure... while US might have something(s) for defense against
cruise missile but Pakistan and India certainly don't have any!

admin: political comments and statements are not appreciated on this forum - plse keep responses to a technical nature.

 

[pshamim]

An interesting response to the CM test from an Indian source. Does highlight a difference between Indian and Pakistani procurement strategies. One other thing that I will disagree with the author that it was the very first test by Pakistan. I do know that I had heard some rumors from some former colleagues about the ongoing tests and trials of such a weapon over the last few years. I do not think that it is a 100% indigenous effort. Different parts and components must have been procured from different sources and sucecessfully put together.

I also disagree that defece against a BM is more difficult than defending a cruise missile

Here is the article. Will like to see response and your comments.:

Babur Cruise Missile

Posted by vkthakur on Saturday, August 13, 2005 (EST)

Pakistan's remarkable success in testing a long range cruise missile has brought out weaknesses in our strategic intelligence and weapon development.


Pakistan's recent testing of the Babur cruise missile is sure to have rattled decision makers in New Delhi. Though there has been no official comment, reaction to the event in the Indian press is a good indicator that our government had no clue of what Pakistan was upto.

Initial press reports harped on the fact that the missile must have been developed with outside assistance, possibly from China. Big deal! Does that make the missile any less potent? Besides, the facade of joint production notwithstanding, our own Brahmos is really a derivative of the Russian Yakhont missile, tweaked to conform to the limitations of the MTCR regime. Incidentally, while our Brahmos is chained to 300 km range limit for ever the Babur is already 200kms ahead!

There can be no denying that Pakistan has achieved a remarkable success in developing a sophisticated weapon system. I think rather than grudging the Pakistan its success we should focus on the strategic implications of that success for us. In addition we need to focus on

• Our apparant dismal lack of strategic intelligence.
• The poor performance of our own weapon development programs vis-a-vis Pakistan.

Intelligence Failure



There is good circumstancial evidence to suggest that the Babur is based on off the shelf components procured by Pakistan from abroad.

The fact that the development of the missile by Pakistan went undetected was because of the fact that it was never developed by Pakistan. An attempt to build a cruise or a ballistic missile from scratch is easy to detect, even for Indian intelligence! Testing of unproven rocket motors requires building of physical infrastructure that can be detected by commercially available high resolution satellites.

Another indicator is the confidence expressed by General Pervez Musharaf in the capabilities of the Babur missile after just its first test. If a complex system, such as a cruise missile, were to be developed from scratch it would take years if not decades of testing to acquire the confidence that General Prevez Musharaf expressed. India's own labored effort with developing ballistic and air defense missile development illustrates my point.

One could suggest that the General was boasting and that the missile is neither fully developed nor as potent as he would want us and his countrymen to believe. Indeed, there is no denying the proclivity of the Pakistani establishment to boast. The following statement attributed to a Pakistani army spokesperson illustrates the point.

"It is a terrain hugging missile, which has the most advanced and modern navigation and guidance and a high degree of maneuverability and its technology enables it to avoid radar detection and penetrate undetected through any hostile defence system."

Clearly the "most advanced" and "penetrate through any hostile defense system" bits are boasts. However, a boast is not a bluff. When General Pervez Musharraf stated :-

"In quality, it (Babur) is far better. Brahmos has a range of 290-300 kilometres while … Babur can hit a target up to 500 kilometres".

He was, in all probabilites, grounded in facts and if that is so like the Brahmos, Pakistan's Babur is based on a well tested weapon system.

Clearly the Babur is not a home grown missile. Pakistan must have acquired the missile, its engines and electronics, all from abroad.

Acquisition of critical missile components and technology from abroad by Pakistan should not have been difficult for our intelligence agencies to detect. Our country has good relations with western nations and Ukraine from where the electronics for the Babur were probably sourced. There are understandable difficulties in penetrating a closed society like China. However, Indian intelligence can compensate by better infiltrating Pakistan and maintaining closer liason with intelligence agencies of other friendly countries. I for one would be very surprised if the Mossad was not aware of it! Afterall, the Babur could easily find its way into Iranian and Palestinian hands!

I think our focus should be on fixing our strategic intelligence apparatus so that Pakistan's purchase of critical missile components and technology abroad does not go undetectd. Only then will we have an opportunity to prevent the dangerous escalation that seems to be taking place in the sub continent.

One would imagine that the Kargil fiasco would have woken up India to the need for good intelligence. Apparantly, it has not.

Frankly, a nuclear weapon state with such a pathetic strategic intelligence gathering capability as India is a danger to the entire world. Indigenous Weapon Development



Measured by any yardstick, India's own weapon development progams have performed very poorly. When compared with efforts in Pakistan our failings appear magnified.

If it has not so far dawned on our government that DRDO has been leading the nation up the garden path for decades now, it should now.

Pakistan with the success of its Khalid MBT, JF-17 Combat Fighter and Missile development programs has shown that it is more cost effective to build on existing technology procured from abroad rather than create it. Indeed, our own Brahmos program illustrates the same.

However, DRDO does not seem to have learnt any lessons. It continue to leverage its indigneous slogan, which has a compelling appeal to the sentiments of the uninformed masses, to grow in size and inefficiency. Its steady bloat is suckering the country out of its resources enfeebling, rather than strengthening it. Conclusion



With the first test of the Babur cruise missile Pakistan has achieved a remarkable success. The missile itself poses little threat to India. The boasts of the Pakistani army spokesperson notwithstanding, cruise missiles can be detected and engaged. For example the F-18E/D with a AN/APG-79 AESA Radar and AIM-120 air to air missile can detect and engage a missile such as the Babur.

Enagagement of cruise missile will be greatly assisted by the acquisition and the integration of the Phalcon AWACS from Israel in the years to come.

Unlike ballistic missiles a subsonic cruise missile takes a significant amount of time to reach its target. This allows for a multiple layered defense. The threat to India will continue to be from ballistic missile that Pakistan fields now and in the future. The above perspective notwithstanding the Babur missile test does highlight the failures in Indian intelligence and defense production. These are serious failures considering that we are right in the middle of two nuclear armed and aggressive adversaries. The country's leadership should not only address these failures but assure the nation that they will not be repeated.



http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/2111.aspx

 

[P.A.F]

http://www.dawn.com/2005/08/22/top3.htm

Pakistan to launch remote sensing satellite system




By Our Staff Reporter
ISLAMABAD, Aug 21: Pakistan plans to launch a self-controlled Remote Sensing Satellite System (RSSS) at a cost of Rs19.3 billion to ensure strategic and unconditional supply of satellite remote sensing data for any part of the globe over the year.

According to sources, the project will be executed by the Pakistan Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (Suparco) over a period of six years. President Gen Pervez Musharraf has approved the project in principle.

The project will require another recurring expenditure of about Rs150 million per year and overall working expenses of about Rs1.15 billion.

The president, sources said, had directed Suparco to develop the capability to make and launch different types of satellites, specially, communications, remote sensing and weather satellites.

Pakistan’s space programme must contribute in the areas of mass education, information technology, communications, agriculture, mineral development, mapping and geographic information system, atmospheric sciences, environment and pollution monitoring and in various areas of national security, the president said.

On the completion of the project, high resolution satellite images will be available for national defence and security in any critical time. They will also enable universities and non-profit organisations to obtain satellite remote sensing data and carry out analysis for other application areas.

The project will help Pakistani engineers acquire comprehensive know-how and technology transfer. Thus, it will be a vital support for future in-house Pakistan remote sensing satellites of world standards to meet demands of enhanced capabilities.

This will help Pakistan coup with the commercial and strategic needs and open a new era of applied research and new trends for planning and implementation of public sector development projects for socio-economic uplift of the country.

Pakistan entered into space era in 1990 with the launch of its first experimental satellite Badr-1, an indigenous effort of Suparco, launched in low earth orbit by a Chinese vehicle from XI Chang Launch Centre.

Second satellite of Pakistan, Badr-2, launched in 2001, carried an experimental earth imaging payload.

The RSSS is highly sophisticated, application oriented, high resolution satellite that will be first of its kind in Pakistan to directly address the demands of today’s market.
__________________________________________________________________

Can this be linked to our cruise missile project???. i mean will it help to store data of terrain into the BABUR to assist with its flight pattern?

 

[mysterious]

Well the way I understand what the article is trying to make clear is that the RSSS is going to be used for a number of operations and national security/defence would be just one aspect of that. As far as Babur LACM is concerned, it could well be using data from the RSSS in the imminent future.