Pakistan test its first cruise missile "BABUR"
- Thread starter super7fc1
- Start date
andromidagalaxy
New Member
Following are the 12 countries with cruise missile
1. u.s.a
2. germany
3. france
4. U.K
5. Russia
6. China
7. Taiwan (yes with mach 2.4)
8. India
9. Pakistan
10. Sweden
11. Norway
12. Israel
1. u.s.a
2. germany
3. france
4. U.K
5. Russia
6. China
7. Taiwan (yes with mach 2.4)
8. India
9. Pakistan
10. Sweden
11. Norway
12. Israel
andromidagalaxy
New Member
Sorry with pakistan the list has grown to 13 not 12. I missed japan.
13. Japan.
13. Japan.
Some references on alledged Ukraine Cruise Missile:
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_002609.php
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/kh-55.htm
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_002609.php
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/kh-55.htm
And Iran also, if you're referring to the KH-55's. Supposedly Ukraine sent the remainder back to Russia or destroyed them. I don't think they have any long range LACM's today.
We should distinguish between LACM's and ASCM's. Lots of countries have ASCM's- for example, Pakistan had Harpoons long before the Babur. LACM's are more complex, due to the need for TERCOM guidance, where ASCM's only need INS and radar. So the list of 13 or 14 are not LACM operators, but all types of CM's. We could add Brazil, Iran, Australia, etc. It's a long list.
We should distinguish between LACM's and ASCM's. Lots of countries have ASCM's- for example, Pakistan had Harpoons long before the Babur. LACM's are more complex, due to the need for TERCOM guidance, where ASCM's only need INS and radar. So the list of 13 or 14 are not LACM operators, but all types of CM's. We could add Brazil, Iran, Australia, etc. It's a long list.
Clearly indicates??? How do you reach this conclusion? And this during a period of US sanctions on Pakistan?pshamim said:
Come now, one crashed missile from 7 years ago? Pakistan was deciphering the Tomahawk before they even had their hands on the pieces?
Pshamin, I can understand that China and Pakistan would not admit to collaborating on the project, it would be a MTCR violation for China. But we all know who Pakistan's closest ally is, and we know the relationship that the Clinton administration had with Pakistan was not good. We also know that China has had a similar cruise missile in service since 1992. And we know the close relationship between China, North Korea, and Pakistan wrt the Pak missile programs.
While it's possible that someone at Boeing might have passed over some plans, it's highly unlikely. I know how tightly controlled these are, it would be extremely difficult to smuggle anything out- they are always accounted for, and only given out in portions relevant to the job at hand. Nobody, not even even subcontractors, gets to see the entire set. Boeing is not Los Alamos.
Compare the picture I posted of the DH-10 on the test fixture and the Babur launch photos. Are you honestly going to tell me that the Babur more closely resembles the Tomahawk? If so, please provide the details of your assessment, because I don't see it that way, and I have worked on Tomahawks. All LACM's in this class bear strong superficial resemblances to each other, the Soviets started out by mimicking the Tomahawk. Basic dimensions are almost identical.
And though I won't offer specifics on an open forum, I can assure you that the significant portions of the Tomahawk are destroyed in any malfunction of the missile. The idea that Pakistan (or anyone else, for that matter) could reverse engineering the guidance system from a failed missile is incredible, to say the least. They have provisions for self-protection- any attempt to slice the processor would destroy it, most of the system would be fused before it even hit the ground, the software has strong encryption, etc. You could get an idea of the basic layout of the missile components, but that's about it. And that's all available from open soures anyway.
Leaving everything else aside for a moment, what factory in Pakistan is producing the turbofan engines?
I have no intention to belittle Pakistan's achievement here- I'm happy for Pakistan. I'm just just trying to be realistic, and reverse engineering the critical systems on a Tomahawk from a crashed missile is not realistic.
A cruise missile in itself is not a complicated machine. What is complicated is the guidance system, fusing, autopilot, datalinking, etc. Anyone can build a basic cruise missile from COTS components. I could probably design one in a couple weeks or so. But just because it would bear a superficial resemblance to a Tomahawk doesn't mean I used Tomahawk technologies. And I would still need to acquire a TERCOM system and data from another source. That's where it gets complicated, and you can't get this from a crashed missile.
Highsea,highsea said:
Respect your opinion and it may very well be true. I should had prefaced my comment "if true". Comment was purely based on Information Minister. I personally know not much about missile technology. My knowledge is limited to F-16 and planes because of my experience as a fighter pilot and then working with F-16s in General Dynamics.
Now coming back to "Babar" and nor Babur", some of my former colleagues whom I talked today, this may not have been the first test. There may have been at least 6-7 previous tests in Balochistan province for fine tuning before the test 2 days ago.
Regards
Stranger things have happened. We supplied weapons to Iran through Israel during the first part of the Iran-Iraq war, then turned around and helped Iraq when Iran started threatening the shipping. One US General, when questioned about this, just kind of shook his head and said "You had to be there". Lol. (And of course, Tehran had no qualms about accepting weapons from their arch-enemies.)
I wouldn't rule out US help anyway, relations have improved considerably in the last few years. Hell, we are providing new F-16's. Things like INS/GPS are pretty mundane, and could easily be supplied on the side or through a third party. The only thing we would be fussy about would be the TERCOM and software, but even that can be safeguarded against tampering.
No doubt there were previous tests before this one, you have to do ground tests, guidance tests with drones, test the fusing, control surfaces and flight parameters, etc., before you are ready to launch a missile at a target.
Anyway, like you said, it doesn't really matter where it came from, the only thing that counts is that Pakistan has this capability now. LACM's are a potent weapon- I'm sure India is not pleased.
I wouldn't rule out US help anyway, relations have improved considerably in the last few years. Hell, we are providing new F-16's. Things like INS/GPS are pretty mundane, and could easily be supplied on the side or through a third party. The only thing we would be fussy about would be the TERCOM and software, but even that can be safeguarded against tampering.
No doubt there were previous tests before this one, you have to do ground tests, guidance tests with drones, test the fusing, control surfaces and flight parameters, etc., before you are ready to launch a missile at a target.
Anyway, like you said, it doesn't really matter where it came from, the only thing that counts is that Pakistan has this capability now. LACM's are a potent weapon- I'm sure India is not pleased.
ashblackhawk
Banned Member
Indians know the mindset of each every politicians in Pakistan. The day we tested cruise missile we were sure that there will be tit-a-tit version in a few years time. So very true !! We are sure the next thing is BVRAAM'shighsea said:Anyway, like you said, it doesn't really matter where it came from, the only thing that counts is that Pakistan has this capability now. LACM's are a potent weapon- I'm sure India is not pleased.
. I am very happy that pakistan have a credible level of deterrence which will keep peace in the region. I am eagerly awaiting the Fighter jet deal from IAF which is likely to go to France unless IAF gets a cheaper deal for f-16 or f-18s with ToT.:coffeenaveedahmed
New Member
Its also worth noting that Indian Generals are now sleepless and reviewing their purchase plans for PAC-3 from USA.
http://jang.com.pk/jang/aug2005-daily/14-08-2005/topst/main1.htm
Happy I-Day to all Pakistani members.
NA
http://jang.com.pk/jang/aug2005-daily/14-08-2005/topst/main1.htm
Happy I-Day to all Pakistani members.
NA
Last edited by a moderator:
highsea said:Stranger things have happened. We supplied weapons to Iran through Israel during the first part of the Iran-Iraq war, then turned around and helped Iraq when Iran started threatening the shipping. One US General, when questioned about this, just kind of shook his head and said "You had to be there". Lol. (And of course, Tehran had no qualms about accepting weapons from their arch-enemies.)
I wouldn't rule out US help anyway, relations have improved considerably in the last few years. Hell, we are providing new F-16's. Things like INS/GPS are pretty mundane, and could easily be supplied on the side or through a third party. The only thing we would be fussy about would be the TERCOM and software, but even that can be safeguarded against tampering.
No doubt there were previous tests before this one, you have to do ground tests, guidance tests with drones, test the fusing, control surfaces and flight parameters, etc., before you are ready to launch a missile at a target.
Anyway, like you said, it doesn't really matter where it came from, the only thing that counts is that Pakistan has this capability now. LACM's are a potent weapon- I'm sure India is not pleased.
High sea according to an International Post Grad student here in the UK Pakistanis were Running Simulations (For a long time) on the behavior of Missiles, while they sea Skim. I'm sure the same research group was involved in developing the Skills necessary to produce a Terrain mapping guidance system. The university was "Sir Sayed"!! The Autonomous Flight control systems could have come from the UAV programs.
adsH Sir Syed Uni has good students but they lack the facility & funds to study military programs & rocketory. If you had said NED I would have said COULD BE but even if they can arange Funds I doubt they could arange Facilities. NED & Sir Syed's students are hired by AQK Lab for studies & R&D on Missile Systems aswell as make simuliations from available missiles there.adsH said:
I am guessing here & my guess may shock many Pakistanis. The guidance system can be the work of Dawlance Electronic Coporation. They are the major home appliance producing company in Pakistan but in late 1980s they started to colaborate with POF & PAC Kamra. The projects were unknown. What happened after that was the Computer Era begain & Dawlance started to suck the best Comp Engineers out there. They were further sent to France, UK, US & even to Russia & Germany & later to China aswell. When they came back most started at Dawlance but some were transfered to POF & PAC. I was later known that Dawlance had not paid a penny for further education of these students, it was financed by Pakistan Armed forces. Dawlance ppl are said to have been working with PN on Agusta-90s, they already were exposed for helping Pakistan in missile system. They tried to cover it by saying that they build only tips of missile & dummy warheads but later it was learnt they have been in colaboration with AQK Lab on whole system. My guess is that most of the computer related programs are performed by Dawlance people at AQK as AQK's students have limits to travel abroad to study advance machanisms & computers.
Dawlance very well has facilities & funds & backing of the military. They specialize in reverse engineering aswell. They have been working with Chinese alot. To ppl they tell that they r going to China to study how to make Tv, DvD players etc but who knows what they realy have been studying. They were already busted with Missile Systems. Now they do admit that they made Missiles for PAC & later shifted the production facility of theirs to kamra so that PAC starts working on its own.
kashifshahzad
Banned Member
i met an employee who is working in the Atomic energy comission nilore Islamabad he told me that his brother will be resently going to china for a course for one year for the JF-17 .His brother is basically a CNC machine operator most of the people know here that what is CNC it is a machine in which when you design something by feeding the design in the machine you can get the manufactured parts join them and make the things which you want.He told me that he will learn there the airframes but the engines would be developed here in Pakistan SABRE can you cnfirm this report .Do pakistan have the capebility to reverse engineer an engine (If we can reverse angineer an Tomahawk an AAMRAM in the shape of SD-10 joint developed by Pakistan and china then why cant the engineSABRE said:
)ashblackhawk
Banned Member
Very true, sri.srirangan said:We don't mind.
kashifshahzad
Banned Member
Sri how can you explain your statement how it would be better for india in the long run?????srirangan said:We don't mind.