Pakistan test its first cruise missile "BABUR"

aaaditya

New Member
gf0012-aust said:
agree wholeheartedly. SLCM assists in establishing 2nd and 3rd strike options.

its a whole lot harder to detect and prosecute against a sub than it is against a skimmer.
the question to be asked would be can babar be successfully integrated on the agosta 90b already manufactured without any major redesign ,or affecting the submarines performance?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
aaaditya said:
the question to be asked would be can babar be successfully integrated on the agosta 90b already manufactured without any major redesign ,or affecting the submarines performance?
thats always the $64k question. I suspect that it won't be an issue of effecting the subs performance though, as there are few variables to contend with - and I'd be guessing that there would be both french and chinese assistance in integrating and adapting a solution.
 

hovercraft

New Member
hawa-ka-sipahi said:
greetings!
what about BABUR II missile i have heard , having range of up to 1000 kms!?
also how BABUR can be air lanched from Mirage/JF-17/F-16s?
how effective is the GPS/INS systems?
AND is F-7PG also capable of firing BABUR?(since it is GPS/INS guided)
  1. Babur II cruise missile has range of 1000kms and also bigger warhead and speed. But that is under develpment and babur's production started after one month of test.
  2. And i also heared pakistanies are develping babur's smaller version too under 300km range for export market. But no prove or source is in my mind.
  3. Pakistanies are designing the jf-17 for baber cruise missile lounch capable and Mirage/F-16/P-3Orian/even C-130 and also J-10 are able to lounch this missile with some modifications.
  4. When this missile was tested pakistani scientists and Gen. Mushurraf too claimed this missile has pinpoint accuracy. But they said its navigation system is not GPS, it is INS. Some people think it has synthetic appurture radar for precise navigation and with on-chip internal calculations(INS).
  5. If realy this missile have INS with synthetic appurture radar and has pinpoint accuracy then this missile is looking more modren then amrican Tomhawk, because amrican tomhawk uses GPS system, if enemy forces destroy or jam the GPS settlites then tomehawk is use less. (but babur is more advanced then AMRICAN Tomhawk, it is very difficult to say).
  6. And I don't think f-7PG is able to fire this missile.
 

aaaditya

New Member
tomahawk also has dsmac and tercom,does babur have these?if so what satellite does babar use to provide the images?

ins is not considered to be as accurate as the gps ,hence many countries use a combination of gps and ins,so that each system compensates the other.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
hovercraft said:
  • When this missile was tested pakistani scientists and Gen. Mushurraf too claimed this missile has pinpoint accuracy. But they said its navigation system is not GPS, it is INS. Some people think it has synthetic appurture radar for precise navigation and with on-chip internal calculations(INS).
  • If realy this missile have INS with synthetic appurture radar and has pinpoint accuracy then this missile is looking more modren then amrican Tomhawk, because amrican tomhawk uses GPS system, if enemy forces destroy or jam the GPS settlites then tomehawk is use less. (but babur is more advanced then AMRICAN Tomhawk, it is very difficult to say).
as aaaditya has pointed out, Tomahawk uses tri-seekers. That means that the missile has redundancy.

western missiles (per se) in this type of class favour multiple seekers to provide redundancy. They are usually dual seekers, and in some cases tri-seekers.

at a technology and certainly at a redundancy level, the system is superior and thus more resistant to single seeker interference.
 
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zoolander

New Member
the tomahawk is mainly guided by gps but it is not dependent on it. Without i doubt it can achieve the accauracy it does now but it is still very accuarate. tomahawks are able to have mid course guidance. it use topographic (landmarks. exp. rivers, mountains, city,) to guide itself.
Of course there is also inertia guidance.

i doubt the babur could beat the tomahawk in range.

no info has been officially given out so lets not come to concensus that pakistan has created some wonder missile.

while we are on this subject

how does this babur compare to the cummunist china's lacm and taiwan's lacm
 

mysterious

New Member
'hovercraft', stop making claims you cannot backup. Just one 'irrelevant' post from you has made other people tire their fingers here to guide you to the truth!

Once again, to repeat what everyone has said, TomaHawk is still superior to Babur. It will take Pakistan years to introduce innovative techs to the basic missile to really make it come at par with a TomaHawk.
 

hovercraft

New Member
ok sirs don't mind, tomehawk is much better then babur it is because may be i donot have much more information about tomhawk so leave it plz.
but this is fact that pak cruise missile tech is much better then indian cruise missile.
Or, i am wrong this time too?

But remember babur has terrian maping navigation system (which is announced when this was tested) and and this system must uses 3d digital map, which may be feeded on babur's computer, like tomhawk, babur missile is too able to determine the rivers, mountains, and other natural or artifical features, (didnot you seened the animation of babur missile which shown on PTV when this missile tested) its flying altitude is 10ms, 33 feet(which is too much low & dangerious) and speed is 880km/hour, are all these possible with only INS? the answer is NO.
so like tomhowk, this missile too has digital 3d map and camera's or radar to determine his waypoints and target.
If Tomhowk is most advanced cruise missile in the world then babur ranked second. i also read this point on many news papers and articals.
 
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shamsi

New Member
aaaditya said:
the question to be asked would be can babar be successfully integrated on the agosta 90b already manufactured without any major redesign ,or affecting the submarines performance?
Why can't be babur integrated with 90 Bravo or other platforms? I do not see any issues, my friend, this is not regulus being fitted to Growler, its Babur on an Agosta rack!
 

shamsi

New Member
gf0012-aust said:
thats always the $64k question. I suspect that it won't be an issue of effecting the subs performance though, as there are few variables to contend with - and I'd be guessing that there would be both french and chinese assistance in integrating and adapting a solution.
Gary, please don't under-estimate the ****'s now...Is there only the French or Chinese who work in Pakistan?
 

shamsi

New Member
hovercraft said:
  1. Babur II cruise missile has range of 1000kms and also bigger warhead and speed. But that is under develpment and babur's production started after one month of test.
  2. And i also heared pakistanies are develping babur's smaller version too under 300km range for export market. But no prove or source is in my mind.
  3. Pakistanies are designing the jf-17 for baber cruise missile lounch capable and Mirage/F-16/P-3Orian/even C-130 and also J-10 are able to lounch this missile with some modifications.
  4. When this missile was tested pakistani scientists and Gen. Mushurraf too claimed this missile has pinpoint accuracy. But they said its navigation system is not GPS, it is INS. Some people think it has synthetic appurture radar for precise navigation and with on-chip internal calculations(INS).
  5. If realy this missile have INS with synthetic appurture radar and has pinpoint accuracy then this missile is looking more modren then amrican Tomhawk, because amrican tomhawk uses GPS system, if enemy forces destroy or jam the GPS settlites then tomehawk is use less. (but babur is more advanced then AMRICAN Tomhawk, it is very difficult to say).
  6. And I don't think f-7PG is able to fire this missile.
Vaow, where do you get your information? I am shocked (mildly sarcastic tone). A lot of you represent above seems unrealistic...a lot of assumptions but no actual data to back it up?
 

shamsi

New Member
gf0012-aust said:
as aaaditya has pointed out, Tomahawk uses tri-seekers. That means that the missile has redundancy.

western missiles (per se) in this type of class favour multiple seekers to provide redundancy. They are usually dual seekers, and in some cases tri-seekers.

at a technology and certainly at a redundancy level, the system is superior and thus more resistant to single seeker interference.
I like Gatling AAA coupled to AMDR or some other doppler system, would make many of these seekers useless with a nice volley of DU rounds!
 

shamsi

New Member
zoolander said:
the tomahawk is mainly guided by gps but it is not dependent on it. Without i doubt it can achieve the accauracy it does now but it is still very accuarate. tomahawks are able to have mid course guidance. it use topographic (landmarks. exp. rivers, mountains, city,) to guide itself.
Of course there is also inertia guidance.

i doubt the babur could beat the tomahawk in range.

no info has been officially given out so lets not come to concensus that pakistan has created some wonder missile.

while we are on this subject

how does this babur compare to the cummunist china's lacm and taiwan's lacm
Chinese build with cost in mind, and with a saturation doctrine. Taiwanese have based their system on American components, and Babur, I can't really comment on, since "so much" is available on PTV and other "sources"...cheers...
 

shamsi

New Member
hovercraft said:
ok sirs don't mind, tomehawk is much better then babur it is because may be i donot have much more information about tomhawk so leave it plz.
but this is fact that pak cruise missile tech is much better then indian cruise missile.
Or, i am wrong this time too?

But remember babur has terrian maping navigation system (which is announced when this was tested) and and this system must uses 3d digital map, which may be feeded on babur's computer, like tomhawk, babur missile is too able to determine the rivers, mountains, and other natural or artifical features, (didnot you seened the animation of babur missile which shown on PTV when this missile tested) its flying altitude is 10ms, 33 feet(which is too much low & dangerious) and speed is 880km/hour, are all these possible with only INS? the answer is NO.
so like tomhowk, this missile too has digital 3d map and camera's or radar to determine his waypoints and target.
If Tomhowk is most advanced cruise missile in the world then babur ranked second. i also read this point on many news papers and articals.
hey Hovercraft, have you thought about it? maybe babur has a GoCDMA online broadband connection too, and it logs on to google maps, and then looks for the target...has a cup of tea, and then goes to the destination....I thought Pakistan having TERCOM was old news.All public release figures have a "purpose." Do you really think that the real operational or test data will ever be released?Do you really think that a complicated system such as CM would be put in service in one month?For those of you who think Pakistan is a Defence industry china town, please think again. All i think of chinese export hardware is badly designed non-810 STD PCBs that are over priced.
 

Rich

Member
The Babur doesn't have the capability of TLAM-lV or Tactical TLAM. It doesn't have the targeting package, the range, and most of all the remarkable Intelligence/Targeting/CNC ability of the US military. Nor can the Pakistanis hose an enemy with 300 to 500 from multiple platforms.

But give em credit. The Babur is a remarkable achievement for a country of Pakistan's infrastructure. Even with Chinese help, and help from the scattered crashes of Yank TLAMs. I have to say however that with the Pakistanis and Indians developing nuclear capable cruise missiles the subcontinent is going to be destabilized even more. I wish both sides would sit down and hammer out some kind of arms control.

We have the capability of arming our TLAMs with nuclear warheads that blow at 150kt. The things scared the heck out of the Russians because they are so difficult to track. And since it aint helping us to have itchy Russian trigger fingers around all those ICBMs there was no point in deploying nuclear TLAMs. So we bargained them away in SALT and were both better off. Then one day we both woke up and discovered none of us ever wanted to hurt the other.:usa :russia

I hope the same thing happens on the subcontinent. Frankly Im concerned over the situation. I'd feel better if we were finding ways to get rid of the things. Thank you.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
shamsi said:
I like Gatling AAA coupled to AMDR or some other doppler system, would make many of these seekers useless with a nice volley of DU rounds!
Gatling type guns have gone out of favour as principle air defence weapons for a variety of reasons - you'll note that no new ships in any of the large modern "western" type navies are fitted for them. They may be fitted as an "event requirement" under discrete circumstances, but they're not included per se from fit out.

They're regarded as "hail mary" weapons.

That doesn't mean that they're not effective, just that they're not as effective as everyone assumed on specific targets.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
shamsi said:
Gary, please don't under-estimate the ****'s now...Is there only the French or Chinese who work in Pakistan?
shamsi, the response wasn't one of underestimating the ****'s (??) - it was a statement of likely in country assistance from nations that have a degree of expertise.

If I was going to be brutally honest - I'd say that there would be less likelihood of chinese assistance as they have demonstrated a stellar lack of success in testing sub launched missile systems - so although they have some capability in adaptive engineering, or in lateral integration, they've failed to deliver at a systems specific level.

Countries that have demonstrated and shown specific experience in designing and integrating cruise missile launch systems on submarines (be they hot or cold launch) could be counted virtually on the digits of one hand.
 

pshamim

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Pakistan conducted another successful test of its Cruise Missile Babur today. It was a ground version with a 500km range and was witnessed by the Pakistani President.


Pakistan launches cruise missile

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40677000/jpg/_40677516_cruise2ap203.jpg Cruise missiles can be targeted with pinpoint accuracy

Pakistan says it has tested a cruise missile for the second time.
The Babur missile is capable of carrying nuclear and conventional warheads and has a range of 500km (310 miles), a military statement said.
Pakistan had fired its first cruise missile last August and described the launch as a "milestone" in its history.
Cruise missiles are usually low-flying guided missiles. South Asian nuclear rival India had no comment on the latest launch.
Last year Pakistan and India agreed to give each other advance notice of future nuclear ballistic missile tests. The agreement, however, does not cover guided missiles.
Routine
Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf witnessed the test launch at an undisclosed location and congratulated the scientists involved, a military official told the AFP news agency.
"All phases of the planned trajectory were extremely successful and the missile impacted with pinpoint accuracy," the military said in a statement.
India and Pakistan routinely test-fire their missiles.
Last March, Pakistan successfully tested a long-range nuclear-capable missile - the Shaheen II, with a range of 2,000km (1,250 miles). The two countries have twice veered close to war since their nuclear tests in 1998 - over Kashmir in 1999 and again in 2002. Both countries have limited command-and-control structures, and neither has developed the technology to recall a nuclear-tipped missile fired in error.
 

mysterious

New Member
Pakistan all set to test cruise missile
From DILSHAD AZEEM

ISLAMABAD - Pakistan is all set to test-fire “Babur” cruise missile with its improved version in a day or two after completion of its successful laboratory tests, The Nation has learnt here.

“All arrangements have been made to test-fire the cruise missile on Monday. It will have capability to hit pinpointed targets from surface, warship or submarines,” the sources maintained.

The “Babur” missile will have a range of nearly 300 miles to hit the target either from a fixed location or the submarines.

“The laboratory tests showed cent per cent accuracy in the latest technology of the cruise missile,” the sources said.

“The Babur missile is prepared mainly for the submarines but it can also be fired from the fighter jets and have capability to chase the target in case of movement,” they disclosed.

In response to a question, the sources revealed that the cruise missile would be undetectable from the radar system before or after its launching to hit the target. “This is the latest technology in the world.”

Pakistan has already fired the first version of the “Babur” but its improvement is continuing as Islamabad continues to improve its defence capabilities.

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/mar-2006/20/index5.php

This is what I had come across before the test had taken place. Note the second last paragraph as it indicates that Pakistan has acquired the 'cold launch' capability. I'd be interested on finding more information regarding this.
 
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