Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"
Myst
Myst
I think Umair is referring to my posting habits - not as to whether I am sensible.
PAF IN 2015
- Thread starter jastreb
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mysterious
New Member
Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"
I know gf bro. No hard feelings! Just used Umair's comments to give a reality check to Webs. Peace out! :smokingc:gf0012 said:Myst
I think Umair is referring to my posting habits - not as to whether I am sensible.
Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"
Hmm...Myst, you have missed the point of my last post by a good degree somewhat.hwell
I must say I concur in principle (of hope) with Roger Smith's post to a future of peace and prosperity for India and Pakistan by 2015...
I believe by 2015 the PAF will be in essence essentially the same as today (in size, etc), with minor touches, unless there are a few as-yet unforeseen big changes or reforms...Of course as well with new and upgraded aircraft acquired by the time, including as I said earlier in the region of 100 JF-17s.
Military obsession? Webbie needs counselling? :rollmysterious said:
Hmm...Myst, you have missed the point of my last post by a good degree somewhat.
hwellI must say I concur in principle (of hope) with Roger Smith's post to a future of peace and prosperity for India and Pakistan by 2015...
I believe by 2015 the PAF will be in essence essentially the same as today (in size, etc), with minor touches, unless there are a few as-yet unforeseen big changes or reforms...Of course as well with new and upgraded aircraft acquired by the time, including as I said earlier in the region of 100 JF-17s.
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Aussie Digger
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Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"
Me too, massive changes on the scale some have predicted here deosn't seem very likely. Massive expenditure would be required to achieve some of the forces some of the posters here are recommending and that could only have a seriously detrimental effect on Pakistan's army and naval forces, not to mention other Government priorities. PAF may introduce one or 2 new capabilities such as AWACS and air - air refuelling aircraft, and perhaps introduce one or 2 new types of aircraft into it's ORBAT, but I cannot see significant wholesale changes occurring. At best one or 2 types of older aircraft may be replaced with larger numbers of newer aircaft and that will be about it I'm afraid. Cheers.
Me too, massive changes on the scale some have predicted here deosn't seem very likely. Massive expenditure would be required to achieve some of the forces some of the posters here are recommending and that could only have a seriously detrimental effect on Pakistan's army and naval forces, not to mention other Government priorities. PAF may introduce one or 2 new capabilities such as AWACS and air - air refuelling aircraft, and perhaps introduce one or 2 new types of aircraft into it's ORBAT, but I cannot see significant wholesale changes occurring. At best one or 2 types of older aircraft may be replaced with larger numbers of newer aircaft and that will be about it I'm afraid. Cheers.
urm We are all off topic here and like i ask about a damn SU 30 MKM not the whole 9 yards about Religion btw i am from malaysia and yes state and religion is seperate but it also depends which state are you in... some states choose to be under the influence of religion in the matters of state. so my point is just because you live in canada and believe in the seperation of state and religion that does not mean the whole world agrees with you.
i believe in the seperation of state but like awang who is also a malaysian believes not. thats y we have democracy so now shut the hell up about religion and get back to the planes......
i believe in the seperation of state but like awang who is also a malaysian believes not. thats y we have democracy so now shut the hell up about religion and get back to the planes......
mysterious
New Member
Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"
Well obviously there wont be major changes apart from bringing in newer aircraft to replace the older ones and AWACS and possibly an air-to-air refuelling aircraft because all PAF has to do is keep a credible deterrance force as compared to the Indian Airforce. I dont see PAF having any aggressive designs over anyone.
Well obviously there wont be major changes apart from bringing in newer aircraft to replace the older ones and AWACS and possibly an air-to-air refuelling aircraft because all PAF has to do is keep a credible deterrance force as compared to the Indian Airforce. I dont see PAF having any aggressive designs over anyone.
mysterious
New Member
Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"
Yes Paxter, I took a look at that thing and I think it was Roger who started off with the lack of Israeli and Malaysian diplomatic contact and stuff. His post was kind of aggravating and I got carried away. Dont worry, things like these happen all the time.
Yes Paxter, I took a look at that thing and I think it was Roger who started off with the lack of Israeli and Malaysian diplomatic contact and stuff. His post was kind of aggravating and I got carried away. Dont worry, things like these happen all the time.
I believe we threw the idea around a bit in 'Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????'saraab said:
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Aussie Digger
Guest
Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"
Some people around here seem to believe that the PAF's money should be spent wholly and solely on combat aircraft alone and no other supporting capabilities with the possible exception of AWACS. Apparently the PAF can support their fleet on a quick reaction alert level indefinitely and as such do not require air to air refuelling or the ability to maintain any real sort of combat persistence. In addition any strike missions the PAF may undertake will be of such a short range and duration that again no air to air refuelling will be required. In addition to this, the PAF apparently sees no value in the tactics used lately by most modern airforces, namely the "time critical targeting" approach which allows aircraft to deploy their weapons in the most effective and time critical manner. The downside of this tactic being of course that the aircraft require a considerable period of loitering over the battlefield. The upside, besides the combat effectiveness is that during this time they can also be employed in air defence, recon, battle damage assessment tasks etc until required for the strike role... Some people I think need to lose their fixation on combat aircraft numbers and types and realise that balanced capabilities are required. Not distorted numbers of a particular breed of aircraft. Cheers.
Some people around here seem to believe that the PAF's money should be spent wholly and solely on combat aircraft alone and no other supporting capabilities with the possible exception of AWACS. Apparently the PAF can support their fleet on a quick reaction alert level indefinitely and as such do not require air to air refuelling or the ability to maintain any real sort of combat persistence. In addition any strike missions the PAF may undertake will be of such a short range and duration that again no air to air refuelling will be required. In addition to this, the PAF apparently sees no value in the tactics used lately by most modern airforces, namely the "time critical targeting" approach which allows aircraft to deploy their weapons in the most effective and time critical manner. The downside of this tactic being of course that the aircraft require a considerable period of loitering over the battlefield. The upside, besides the combat effectiveness is that during this time they can also be employed in air defence, recon, battle damage assessment tasks etc until required for the strike role... Some people I think need to lose their fixation on combat aircraft numbers and types and realise that balanced capabilities are required. Not distorted numbers of a particular breed of aircraft. Cheers.
Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"
amateurs talk about weapons, tacticians talk about logistics
To paraphrase an expression:Aussie Digger said:
amateurs talk about weapons, tacticians talk about logistics
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Aussie Digger
Guest
Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"
Very true gf. I often forget that I'm discussing defence issues with people who not only have no actual military experience, but don't even real-life experience in defence related matters, as you obviously do. Cheers.
Very true gf. I often forget that I'm discussing defence issues with people who not only have no actual military experience, but don't even real-life experience in defence related matters, as you obviously do. Cheers.
Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"
there are some smart cookies in here though, but the obsession with weapons and weapons systems is kind of to be expected.Aussie Digger said:
amit21mech
New Member
Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"
Admin Edit: Words like "pathetic" are inappropriate as a descriptor.. Please replace it with a suitable less inflammatory adjective.
And I think PAF can not even think of aggressive designs over anyone by looking at her present pathetic situationmysterious said:
Admin Edit: Words like "pathetic" are inappropriate as a descriptor.. Please replace it with a suitable less inflammatory adjective.
Guess i have to agree on the fact that the Pafs paying little attention to its logistics. An aerial refuelling capability and SAM batteries would be another ACE for the PAF. But what can an airforce do when it cant even manage to obtain decent aircraft in both quality and quantity?
I guess I'd look at it in a contrarian manner. The bottom line is that Pakistan does not have the same robust financial base as India does. Thats not meant to offend anyone, it is the reality of RealPolitik. On the basis that Pakistan cannot hope to meet India platform for platform, then it needs to counter what it sees as Indias strengths with a robust defence system.corsair7772 said:Guess i have to agree on the fact that the Pafs paying little attention to its logistics. An aerial refuelling capability and SAM batteries would be another ACE for the PAF. But what can an airforce do when it cant even manage to obtain decent aircraft in both quality and quantity?
The day that you start considering nukes as the solution is the day that you might as well tell your army to start shooting your own countrymen - because the use of nukes as a response mechanism will lead to the same endgame.
mysterious
New Member
Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"
I dont think Pakistan has considered nukes being a solution at all. It only has a first-use policy in face of extreme situations in which the soveriegnity of the country might be at stake and stuff like that; otherwise Pakistan seems to be bent on facing India 'conventionally'. Yes it lacks the financial base but given the right deals, it could muster up excellent defences! Lets wait and see what the 'major non-NATO ally (MNNA)' brings for Pakistan. Already India has broken down in sweat after hearing this news!
I dont think Pakistan has considered nukes being a solution at all. It only has a first-use policy in face of extreme situations in which the soveriegnity of the country might be at stake and stuff like that; otherwise Pakistan seems to be bent on facing India 'conventionally'. Yes it lacks the financial base but given the right deals, it could muster up excellent defences! Lets wait and see what the 'major non-NATO ally (MNNA)' brings for Pakistan. Already India has broken down in sweat after hearing this news!
Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"
India wouldn't be quaking in its boots as its mature enough to recognise the issue of symbolism. It's a variation of the old CENTO agreement. You need to look beyond the issue of seeing it as a buffering statement to India - it is clearly NOT.
Politics is a little more complicated than often presented.
The issue of association with NATO has got nothing to do with sending India a message. The statement is one of recognition by the US for Musharaffs stand against radicalism and terrorism.mysterious said:
India wouldn't be quaking in its boots as its mature enough to recognise the issue of symbolism. It's a variation of the old CENTO agreement. You need to look beyond the issue of seeing it as a buffering statement to India - it is clearly NOT.
Politics is a little more complicated than often presented.
mysterious
New Member
Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"
Yes I know what you mean gf, thats why I said that we have to WAIT and see what benefits MNNA status brings for Pakistan as clearly you cannot take that statement by Colin Powell at its face-value unless you see something happening as a result of that statement that is benefitting to Pakistan other than just 'praise'! :smokingc:
Yes I know what you mean gf, thats why I said that we have to WAIT and see what benefits MNNA status brings for Pakistan as clearly you cannot take that statement by Colin Powell at its face-value unless you see something happening as a result of that statement that is benefitting to Pakistan other than just 'praise'! :smokingc: