PAF IN 2015

[Aussie Digger]

Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"

Well Mysterious the fact that you're a Muslim doesn't make your belief's any more valid than mine. You believe certain things because of what you have read in the Koran and because of what others have told you. That doesn't necessarily make these things so. I don't mean to belittle your religion, but the inescapable fact is that the majority of people in "Western" countries enjoy a better standard of living than most of those of Middle Eastern Countries. Muslim Countries exist which have achieved better living standards for their people and yet are every bit as pious and devout muslims as you obviously are. It seems to me therefore that countries whcih try to justify their lack of attention to these basic humans rights on the basis of their faith are in fact simply using there faith as an excuse. Surely it wasn't originally designed for that purpose? Religions, (of any type) as I understand them, were originally designed to comfort and support people, not oppress them. Cheers.

 

[mysterious]

Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"

Well for gf, all I can think of to say is that religiously I dont think you're much of an involved person. Answer to your questions is that you dont judge a faith by its followers; you judge a faith by its teachings and its guidance. Yes you are right about the Arabs, they have certainly deviated away from the true teachings of Islam. Pick up a copy of the translation of the Qur'an and you will see that women have equal rights as men in Islam but in most of the Islamic countries that is NOT the case; the true Islamic society should be based on democratic principles which is NOT the case in most of the Islamic countries. The fact that they are not following their religion (in this case, Islam) properly doesnt mean that Islam should be judged by 'their' actions. Similarly, when I critisized America and France, I did not criticize these states' main religion, Christianity; I criticized the society, the state, the people.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"

Well for gf, all I can think of to say is that religiously I dont think you're much of an involved person

You assume again, what you can accurately say is that my comprehension of your faith is limited, That is why I interact with different people to see if they are representative of their faith, and I ask questions to see whether the answers are consistent.

you judge a faith by its teachings and its guidance

Religion shouldn't be judged by it's followers, but it sure will influence people. They can be a reflection of the teachings if you don't see others within the faith.

Hence my earlier questions about Islam in another thread on the forum. To find similarities, to make a connection with anyone you need to find common ground - hence why I ask questions.

 

[mysterious]

Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"

And as for Aussie, I'd say he is not following my posts correctly or rather he doesnt want to. I have said it again and again; yet I'll say it again, the problem with most of the Islamic countries is that they havent figured out the 'perfect' way of making the state and religion work together which is very important in the Muslim world. Yes, I agree that Islamic countries have functioned badly and not delivered in the sense that an Islamic state is suppose to according to the teaching of the Qur'an; that is because they have deviated away from the true teachings. But on the other hand, they have not deviated enough so as to be catagorized as disfunctional on a "moral" level as most of the western societies. You have Saudi Arabia as an example, they have their goods and their bads. The bads include, not granting women equal rights and stuff like that. The good though, tell us that the society in Saudi Arabia is much more richer in moral welfare than any other place on this planet!! Please tell me if Saudi Arabia's crime rate is anywhere near the US rate. Please tell me that in Saudi Arabia, rape is a problem. Please tell me Saudi Arabia has the rate of disfunctional marraiges anywhere near that of the US. So, as gf said in an other post, at the end of the day; you will believe in what you think is right and I will believe in what I think is right. Its all about agreeing to be disagreeable. :smokingc:

 

[mysterious]

Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"

Yes religion does influence people in a way but it all comes down to people again as religion will influence people in the way that they have studied it and took it to be. You cant make the religion teach itself to the people, its the people who study it and then do things accordingly. For instance, JIHAD is something that is much known around the western world these days and as soon as someone mentions it, people think it means HOLY WAR when it DOES NOT mean that! It means "struggle" in the way of God!! Military aspect of JIHAD is just ONE part of it and that is also highly regulated by the rules laid down in the Qur'an and the Hadith. It is these organizations like al-qaeda that have made out their own meaning out of Jihad as for them it only means Holy War. So you see, in this way you cannot say religion has influenced people. Its more about what influence people have taken up on themselves and bent the religious teachings to further their own personal interests.

 

[Roger Smith]

Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"

It is NOT about having larger/largest Muslim populations Roger my friend, its about the Religion of the STATE!!! India is a Hindu state no matter how secular of a democracy it clammers about being and it will remain so. Turkey, much like rest of the Europe is on the path to "secularism" and its only an Islamic state for the name's sake I'd say! All other Islamic states are quite "Islamic" when you compare them to Turkey. So my point is that no true Islamic state would keep relations with a Zionist state because we Muslims know we have to show our faces to God and stand trial of our deeds when we die; and its better to keep one's honour and dignity rather than join forces (or shake hands) with Zionists who are killing Muslims each day! So Roger, like it or not, it all comes down to "religion" in the end! And lastly, I dont believe in secularism as a secular life is meaningless. :smokingc:

Mys..... You may be right with your theory on religion, it is all crap and we are not living in the middle ages. Religion and state should be separate for improvement and betterment of people economy and the country infrastructure.

Thats the problem Roger, you're not a Muslim. If you were one, you wouldn't have posted this post of yours. You see, for Muslims, state and religion cannot be two different things; they go together. Thats the way Islam is. For Muslims, the betterment and improvement of people lies more with the spiritual and holy ways rather then western materialism. When you separate state and religion, you have countries like America, where crime rate is the highest in the world, where raping a woman accurs every 30 minutes or even much less, where sexual immorality is not an issue, where money and material well-being is all what people want (because that is how capitalism works - money is your new religion), etc. Then you have countries like France, where people are allowed to roam around naked but not wear headscarves just because it shows a sign of some religious affiliation. You see this whole idea of state and religion going together is what lies at the roots of Islam and that is why the Muslim world is lagging behind these days because they haven't found the right way to make the state & religion work together and so they are trying their best to do so. I am a proud Muslim and currently am taking up courses to dig deep in to the roots of Islam and believe me! the more I find out the more I love my religion.

In my view, the west has succeeded in prosperity and material welfare because it decided to forgo religion and accept secularism. Tell me, are the people in the west going to take their prosperity and material welfare (and wealth) to their graves? What are they going to do when asked in the afterlife about how religious they were? Are they going to answer, "Oh! We were so busy making money and gaining material advancements that we didnt get the time to pray or do at least something religious"?

The point I am trying to make here is that, once again, Islamic countries need to figure out a way to make the state and religion go hand in hand or it just wont work as a vast majority in the Muslim world is NOT ready to give up religion for the material well being and economic development at the hands of Capitalism (as far as what I have found out from my study and research).

I disagree with you, religion and state can function separately like in Muslim countries in Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia and Eygpt.........which has elected democratic government.

Basically, the Muslim population has been suppressed and oppressed by their rulers and religious leaders for too long and there is no independent or individual power to function or think.

So your point is that Democracy and Islam are two different things? Now that is ONE pro-western B.S. that I've been getting a lot recently. If you have the time and interest, please look up some Islamic books and even the Qur'an itself; true Islamic society is based on democratic style. I do agree to one thing though that it is unfortunate that most of the Islamic countries have in a way swayed away from the true Islamic teachings and have rather continued to follow their "traditional" paths. And there's a good point here, every now and then, specially when Islam is mentioned, half the world confuses "Religion" with "Tradition". There is a very fine line between the two actually.

It is all self imposed by the rulers and religious leaders of the Muslim world to oppressed the mass population for financial benefit and control of power.

Just few example;
1) During Taliban's era in Afghanistan human rights were suppressed.
2) Sadam Hussuein in Iraq had no opposition, if any entity raises their voice they simply disappear.
3) Pervez Musharraf is afraid of his opposition candidates like Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif, send them to exile.
4) Saudi Arabia & GCC rulers have complete/absolute rule over the kingdom.
5) Iran run by religious leaders.
6) Sudan and other African Muslim countries are having civil wars.
7) Checyna & Kashmir civil unrest.

Well, I rest my case!

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"

Yes religion does influence people in a way but it all comes down to people again as religion will influence people in the way that they have studied it and took it to be. You cant make the religion teach itself to the people, its the people who study it and then do things accordingly. For instance, JIHAD is something that is much known around the western world these days and as soon as someone mentions it, people think it means HOLY WAR when it DOES NOT mean that! It means "struggle" in the way of God!! Military aspect of JIHAD is just ONE part of it and that is also highly regulated by the rules laid down in the Qur'an and the Hadith. It is these organizations like al-qaeda that have made out their own meaning out of Jihad as for them it only means Holy War. So you see, in this way you cannot say religion has influenced people. Its more about what influence people have taken up on themselves and bent the religious teachings to further their own personal interests.

Without sounding patronising, when you post like this it is actually much easier to engage with you as you don't become aggressive.

Keep it up.

 

[mysterious]

Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"

I agree with you over the point that rulers of such Islamic countries at times do many things for personal benefits and objectives. But I wouldn't agree with you over Pervez Musharraf. I dont think he's afraid of the opposition at all. Nawaz Sharif was a traitor, went to Saudi Arabia of his own choice and deal with the authorities in Islamabad. Benazir, is corrupt as hell and a bad name for her father who was a great man! She faces charges which she is afraid to face and thats why she roams around all over the world blabbing without having the courage to come home and face the realities (why doesnt she come? what fear has she got if she's so innocent?). :smokingc:

 

[webmaster]

Stick to the damn topic, kids.

 

[Revival_786]

Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"

I agree with Mysterious. What many Islamic countries are doing today is not necessarily Islamic. And, for example, in Islam people elect a leader. Know this... The Western countries are much more "older" in their existance since their countries were established long before Muslim countries were fully established. The Muslim world was either occupied by the British, etc. and subject to constant territorial fragmentation to ensure fighting across people. The Muslim countries are still "new" - they are evolving and are developing. The Muslim world didn't go through the industrial revolution (which was more of a western phenomenon), the state of Israel creating problems, fast population growth rates (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) and corruption are some of the reasons Muslims are lagging behind.

These are just temporary problems which might take (25-50 years or even less to solve). The Muslims brought the world out of the dark age with modern and advanced ideas. It won't be "long" before the Muslims are back to the post of being part of the leaders of the world today

Muslims are among the best societies in the world, if not the best because their morals will not change even if secular societies vote that raping is legal, etc. (gay and lesbian marriages are starting to become common over there)...

 

[Winter]

Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"

You eminent members have just delivered me a bloody ridiculous demonstration of a train derailing.

In a pathetic and consequently useless attempt to bear this thread back to at least a shadow of it's former self as to hold back the tide with a tea towel, I will predict from my lack of knowledge and what I have seen and read, Pakistan will have no more than 100-120 JF-17s by 2015.

From now on, I will cross my fingers in the future knowing that at least half the threads on this forum do have the potential and scope to 'develop' into this...

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"

You eminent members have just delivered me a bloody ridiculous demonstration of a train derailing.

welcome to the frustration zone..

 

[mysterious]

Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"

I dont get it! Bloody ridiculous demonstration of a train derailing? Where did that come from?

 

[saraab]

guys , we arent here to discuss what is Islamic and whats not.
This aint going anywhere like this.

i agrree with u winter.

 

[umair]

I dont get it! Bloody ridiculous demonstration of a train derailing? Where did that come from?

It means the "BLOODY STUPID MANNER" in which u guys have gone off topic and ruined a perfectly good thread.
Mysterious buddy,I agree with what u say bout us muslims,but there is a way of putting one's arguments accross without making others and u'r self feel defensive about u'r beliefs.I've seen the whole thread and in my opinion trouble started from Paxter's posts.
Mysterious,Roger,Paxter and other such members"Stop acting and bickering like 14 year old hormone driven kids.It's this behaviour of u'rs due to which senior and sensible members (cept gf)are'nt posting regularly anymore.Rectify u'r attitudes AND LEARN TO DISCUSS POLITICS IN POLITICAL FORUMS.Also keep cool heads on issues sensitive to u'r self before responding.Believe me restraining one self is difficult but by doing it, not only would u be able to produce answers which make others think, but in a form acceptable to the addressed member/s"
ThankYou

 

[webmaster]

Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"

I dont get it! Bloody ridiculous demonstration of a train derailing? Where did that come from?

If you don't understand such simple sentences, what are you doing debating on Islam and what islam is? Are you some type of contractor on Islam that you have to bring it in every thread and somehow make it Islam vs the nonislam ?

Your lack of defence knowledge just doesn't help so its best not to reply and ruin the thread. Read, learn and shut up if still you can't comment on the topic accordingly.

 

[Roger Smith]

Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"

Pakistan will have no more than 100-120 JF-17s by 2015.

I feel by 2015 the situation on the Indian sub-continent would much better than now and peace, prosperity, progress will prevail in every sector between Pakistan and India for betterment of both countries.

I assume building armed forces and wars would in the past as bad memory and a part of history.

 

[The Watcher]

Roger that does not mean pakistan or any other country involved will stop spending on defence and security of the nation. Good days and good relations are welcomed but a country should be prepared to face any aggression from any side. Pakistan's airforce will be stronger and better in years to come.

 

[Roger Smith]

Roger that does not mean pakistan or any other country involved will stop spending on defence and security of the nation. Good days and good relations are welcomed but a country should be prepared to face any aggression from any side. Pakistan's airforce will be stronger and better in years to come.

Let us pray and hope for the best for Pakistan in the coming future. :smokingc:

 

[mysterious]

Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"

Hats off to you Umair. I agree with you and sorry I got a little carried away. But I thought you said (except gf) all senior members were quite sensible, so when did Webs join in? And as for Webs, not knowing what a particular sentence doesnt mean that you dont know stuff about other things. I bet you dont know about the great big world other than your military obsession but that doesnt give me any right to diss you out here. And if you think I'm a contractor working for Islam, then you my friend need some counselling about what one should do when its hard times for your religion at the hands of a few individuals. It is my duty by faith to correct the misconceptions about Islam and on this forum I only do so when something related to that comes up, not otherwise!!