kashifshahzad
Banned Member
What is the difference between the P-3 orions and the swedish planes which we are getting I think till 2015 we will need another plane to surpass the Indian planes i dont know for which plane they will go for 
F-16's done, What should PAF's next acquisition be?
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My friend thats not half of the deal. I got hold of some importent elements & posted it here but it got ignored, here are few things not mentioned.rafale_2k5 said:It seems that the F-16 deal is on the verge of final stages n PAF is ultimately goin 4 the Block-52s unlike what some people were contemplating 4 the blk60s,hers the link n report....the repotr seems to be a pretty lousy one as is evident from his reort by referring to P-3C as PC-3 n refrs to TOW missile as Toe !!!!!!
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/may2005-daily/08-05-2005/metro/i17.htm
Pak-US talks on F-16s sale conclude
Muhammad Saleh Zaafir
ISLAMABAD: A high-level defence team from the United States comprising experts from the Pentagon and Lockheed Martin Corporation, builders of the most modern multi-role F-16 fighter aircraft, concluded its discussions with the authorities concerned here to facilitate a deal for the supply of these planes to Pakistan. The team has now returned to the US.
This was disclosed by Pakistan’s Ambassador to the United States General (retd) Jehangir Karamat while exclusively talking to The News here Saturday.
The US is expected to sign a deal regarding timing of the delivery and per-plane cost immediately after the receipt of approval from Congress where the issue is being discussed. The State Department has already put up a proposal to the Congress for approval.
Sources revealed that the US is prepared to provide 24 new Block-52 F-16 CD aircraft, the 4th generation of F-16s to Pakistan, and current Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Block 15 F-16s the Mid-life update (MLV) which would enhance the capability of the existing fleet to the level of 3rd generation planes. The process for the same would be commencing early next year.
Pakistan intimated the US team that it wished to enhance the existing fleet of F-16s to 111 by 2015 and Islamabad is contemplating to buy 71 more 4th generation aircraft.
To a question, the ambassador declined to give further details of the deliberations between the two teams on the F-16s issue.
To another query, he said India has neither responded to the US offer of F-18 sale nor made any request to the US in this regard.
Jehangir Karamat said US President George W Bush would visit the region by the end of current year. He will also come to Pakistan but officially no word has yet been given by Washington about his visit even to India.
The US approach to Pakistan-India talks is very positive and Washington is keen to see progress in the process and facilitating a move forward in dialogue, he said.
General Jehangir Karamat said the United States is in the process of supplying Pakistan with the most sophisticated weapons including spares about which both the countries had previous agreements besides PC-3 Orion planes for the navy, Toe missiles for PAF, choppers and C-130 Hercules wide body planes.
To another question, the ambassador said the situation regarding immigrants having legal documents has somewhat improved but the illegal immigrants who have either no documents or dubious documents are facing problem. Pakistani immigrants
overstaying in the US are also facing trouble but the embassy is putting up its best efforts to reduce their hardships.
He said the attitude of host government has also improved and visitors from Pakistan are now normally treated at the entry points.
The envoy said joint military exercises of the US with India would have no adverse impact on Pakistan’s defence.
During his stay in the Federal Capital, Karamat held separate meetings with President General Pervez Musharraf and Prime minister Shaukat Aziz. He will return to the US tomorrow.
1. If Pakistan buys any defence equipment (including fighter jets) that are second hand (used by USAF/Navy/Marines) Pakistan will get them for FREE. The only thing we will have to pay for is the upgrading. US would not downgrade those used AirCrafts except for few equipments that are not supposed to be exported. (Note: 2nd hand F-16s include Block 15,32,50)
2. All F-16s may be Block52C/D but PAF has successfuly negotiated on coustomization including the AESA Radar, AIM-120.
3. AirFrame are suppose to be of Block60.
4. All MLU will upto the level of Block52+.
5. Belgiun F-16 came up & US said that when we are giving you our 2nd hand AirCrafts for free why u wana waist ur money on Beligum's F-16.
These moves are to make Pakistan's air-defence at par with India's. With free F-16s, PAF can go for Surplus of F-16s of level of Block52+.
My source said that PAF F-16s will be more or less like Block60 except they wont have external fuel tanks.
Seems like USA doesnt want to through away their 1000+ F-16s when JSF comes arround. They probably wont to give them to those who deserve these machines. Strengthen the defence of allies.
Pakistan has also asked for Recon AirCrafts besides P3C-Orion...the recon aircrafts name is un-disclosed.
My source also added that PAF may become largest F-16 fleet in the region by 2020 that is if USA agrees not to shut down the equipment prodution.
SABRE
When that report says "boost the current fleet to 111", do they mean buy second hand F-16A/Bs (given that they reportedly come free, but PAF has to pay for upgrades). Also, when they say add 71 more 4th Generation fighters, do they mean JAS-39 Gripens and Block-52+ F-16s?
When that report says "boost the current fleet to 111", do they mean buy second hand F-16A/Bs (given that they reportedly come free, but PAF has to pay for upgrades). Also, when they say add 71 more 4th Generation fighters, do they mean JAS-39 Gripens and Block-52+ F-16s?
A
Aussie Digger
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It only refers to F-16's. Why would PAF officials be talking to the US about Gripens? They're made by Sweden. I know they use GE F404 engines, but presumably if the USA is willing to sell advanced F-16's and AMRAAM/JDAM munitions, then I can't see any reason they'd refuse to supply F404 engines (the same ones as used in F/A-18 fighters) to Pakistan for the Gripens...
AS to the second hand F-16A/B's. The MLU program will include airframe remedies to ensure (zero-life) the aircraft have the life in them that Pakistan requires, just as the European F-16 users have done. In effect the upgraded F-16's should be as capable and have almost as much life left in them as new build fighters, they'll just be a bit cheaper...
AS to the second hand F-16A/B's. The MLU program will include airframe remedies to ensure (zero-life) the aircraft have the life in them that Pakistan requires, just as the European F-16 users have done. In effect the upgraded F-16's should be as capable and have almost as much life left in them as new build fighters, they'll just be a bit cheaper...
According to defence sctry the 24 of the F-16s are going to be new ones if you see more purchases along with those 24 than they probably are 2nd hand MLU upgrades. All second hand would be brought up to the level of Block 52+BilalK said:
Rest is what AussiDigger is saying. But there is a plan to buy new F-16s every 4 years.
When u got F-16 Block52+ C/D with AIM-120 AMRAAMS & AESA Radars why do you need Gripens. Plus with AIM-120, AESA Radar, Airframe of block 60 & life brought upto Zero, our F-16s are going to be as good as UAE's which are better than Rafale, which will make ours better too.
The 2nd AirCraft that PAF wants to introduce as their primary Front line AirCraft (the last time I checked on the list with my sources) could be one of these;
1. Rafale (MultiRole Version)
2. Mirage2000-9 (probably with different name & coustomization)
3. F-18E/F
4. JAS-39 Gripens
We could go for Block60s but the coustomization of Block52+ & future MLUs can bring the current fleet to the level of it so need for them. Other possible backs are
5. J-10 (which i herd one of my source say as C/D versions not current A/B)
6. JH-7 (maritimes patrol to replace mirage5)
rafale_2k5
New Member
Those humps u r refeing to r called CFTs (Conformal Fuel Tanks), on another note if wat all sabre is sayin is true than that is really pretty good news 4 PAF, were definitely seein some interestin developments , n i dare say Indians r not gonna finalize their MRCA deal soon, theyll probably wait 4 PAFs acquisitions/ specs n if all this about AESA is true than Indians shall definitely be gon 4 F-18s u guys can count on it, because Russian AESA technooy has no matured n Israelis have recently displayed one during AERO INDIA , n idont know how mature the technology really is if someone is intereste i can send u the specs, plus its not only radar but a host of other features as well!!!!-
I have my own doubts of the US letting the Gripen come to us. The recent F-16 sale was to benefit lockheed martin not pakistan. The 71 Aircraft promised would also probably be newer builds. That would give the US aircraft industry enouygh funds to go through the worst of times. Thus if these sales are for the purpose of assisting the US defense industry, i dont see why the US would want the same for sweden.Aussie Digger said:
i know this shouldn't be disscussed here but opening another thread would be silly
http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0505090379115108.htm
Pakistan-US-Planes
The first test flight of C-130 transport plane made by Lockheed Martin Corporation has been conducted in the United States and the latest version of Hercules fleet delivery to Pakistan will begin next month, said a local press report.
The News reported in its Monday issue that Islamabad and Washington entered into 75-million-dollar deal in August 2003, which it said was the largest military sales since 20 years.
According to the report, the plane is configured for different missions and is the latest addition to the transport plane fleet.
"The inclusion of the latest C-130 planes would not only improve the defense capability, but also enhance its ability to conduct humanitarian relief missions," the daily added.
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?id=11257
Pentagon approves missile sale to Pakistan
ISN SECURITY WATCH (10/05/05) - The Pentagon has approved two missile sales worth US$180 million to Pakistan, in a move warmly welcomed in Islamabad, where officials say the deal signals improving relations.
According to a statement from the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which handles foreign arms sales for the Pentagon, the sale would include 40 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles (AGM-84L) and 20 ground-launched (RGM-84L) Harpoon Block II missiles.
In a separate deal, worth US$46 million, Pakistan is also seeking to purchase 300 Sidewinder missiles for fighter aircraft.
“The Pakistani Air Force currently lacks this self-defense capability. These missiles are needed to allow Pakistan to defend its borders, participate in coalition operations and exercises and operate a modern Air Force,'' the Defense Department said in a statement.
On 20 November 2004, US Congress adopted a bill to provide US$300 million in military assistance to Pakistan as part of the first installment of a historic US$3 billion economic and military assistance package announced at Camp David in June 2003.
Next month, Pakistan is scheduled to receive six C-130 J transport aircraft in accordance with a US$75 million deal signed in August 2003.
Pakistani Foreign Ministry spokesman Jalil Abbas Jilani welcomed the Pentagon’s announcement as an illustration of improved Pakistani-US relations. US Congress still has to approve the deal, but Jilani told ISN Security Watch he was confident there would be no hitches.
A US embassy official in Islamabad, who spoke to ISN Security Watch on condition of anonymity, said the Pentagon’s move indicated US “concern for the security of Pakistan, which is not only a friendly country, but also a key ally in the war against terrorismâ€.
In a related development, the Pakistan Navy has placed an order with the US for eight P3-C Orion aircraft and six Phalanx Close-In Weapon Systems. According to the official, the eight P-3C aircraft will cost around US$970 million, and the funds will come from US military assistance to Pakistan.
US-Pakistani relations significantly improved after Pakistani military president Pervez Musharraf agreed to join the US-led “war on terror†following the 11 September 2001 attacks on New York and Washington. Before than, there were more US sanctions against Pakistan than against any other country in the world.
Neighboring India has strongly objected to the US sale of weapons to Pakistan.
__________________________________________________________________
Looks like where getting the new C-130 J multi-mission aircraft too
http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0505090379115108.htm
Pakistan-US-Planes
The first test flight of C-130 transport plane made by Lockheed Martin Corporation has been conducted in the United States and the latest version of Hercules fleet delivery to Pakistan will begin next month, said a local press report.
The News reported in its Monday issue that Islamabad and Washington entered into 75-million-dollar deal in August 2003, which it said was the largest military sales since 20 years.
According to the report, the plane is configured for different missions and is the latest addition to the transport plane fleet.
"The inclusion of the latest C-130 planes would not only improve the defense capability, but also enhance its ability to conduct humanitarian relief missions," the daily added.
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?id=11257
Pentagon approves missile sale to Pakistan
ISN SECURITY WATCH (10/05/05) - The Pentagon has approved two missile sales worth US$180 million to Pakistan, in a move warmly welcomed in Islamabad, where officials say the deal signals improving relations.
According to a statement from the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which handles foreign arms sales for the Pentagon, the sale would include 40 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles (AGM-84L) and 20 ground-launched (RGM-84L) Harpoon Block II missiles.
In a separate deal, worth US$46 million, Pakistan is also seeking to purchase 300 Sidewinder missiles for fighter aircraft.
“The Pakistani Air Force currently lacks this self-defense capability. These missiles are needed to allow Pakistan to defend its borders, participate in coalition operations and exercises and operate a modern Air Force,'' the Defense Department said in a statement.
On 20 November 2004, US Congress adopted a bill to provide US$300 million in military assistance to Pakistan as part of the first installment of a historic US$3 billion economic and military assistance package announced at Camp David in June 2003.
Next month, Pakistan is scheduled to receive six C-130 J transport aircraft in accordance with a US$75 million deal signed in August 2003.
Pakistani Foreign Ministry spokesman Jalil Abbas Jilani welcomed the Pentagon’s announcement as an illustration of improved Pakistani-US relations. US Congress still has to approve the deal, but Jilani told ISN Security Watch he was confident there would be no hitches.
A US embassy official in Islamabad, who spoke to ISN Security Watch on condition of anonymity, said the Pentagon’s move indicated US “concern for the security of Pakistan, which is not only a friendly country, but also a key ally in the war against terrorismâ€.
In a related development, the Pakistan Navy has placed an order with the US for eight P3-C Orion aircraft and six Phalanx Close-In Weapon Systems. According to the official, the eight P-3C aircraft will cost around US$970 million, and the funds will come from US military assistance to Pakistan.
US-Pakistani relations significantly improved after Pakistani military president Pervez Musharraf agreed to join the US-led “war on terror†following the 11 September 2001 attacks on New York and Washington. Before than, there were more US sanctions against Pakistan than against any other country in the world.
Neighboring India has strongly objected to the US sale of weapons to Pakistan.
__________________________________________________________________
Looks like where getting the new C-130 J multi-mission aircraft too
kashifshahzad
Banned Member
Thankz for combining these news i have read that before by the way nice effort i can find these news in one post
The AGM-84L is not a Sidewinder AAM, it is the air-launched Harpoon Block II AShM. The RGM-84L is the ship launched version of the same missile.P.A.F said:
I disagree. First, the sale to Pakistan is coming out of $6 Billion in grants from the US, half of which can be used for military purchases. If the US wasn't interested in helping Pakistan, and only worried about the US defense industry as you claim, we could just put the entire $6 Billion toward some more F-22's or JSF's. This would be much more beneficial to Lockheed than giving Pakistan F-16's.corsair7772 said:
As Sabre mentioned, if the US gifts second hand aircraft to Pakistan to fill in the numbers, only the MLU's get paid for anyway, the airframes are freebies. The 24 will be new builds, but that is hardly "enough funds to get through the worst of times" as you put it. Besides, the F-16 line has orders for at least two more years as it stands (not counting the new AC for Pakistan), and who can say what the future holds?
Assuming the Congress approves the F-16 and AMRAAM, then the US would have no reason to block the Gripen if Pakistan wanted them. The only US technology that is particularly sensitive on the Gripen is the AMRAAM and the GE404 engine (and the engine is much less sensitive than the missiles). Regardless, I don't think it would make sense for Pakistan to buy them, since the F-16 will be a more capable AC, far superior range and loadout, an equivalent AAM, and potentially better avionics and ECM/ECCM package.
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I dont think Gripens would be good idea after F-16 inductions. F-16 Block 52+ & 60 C/D/E/F are far superior. Except for few computerized features on Gripens there is nothing to it. The weapons it carries are either same to that of F-16s (e.g: AMRAAMs) or they are more or less similar. This has been said before but every one keeps on revolving arround Gripens. From what I feel, by talking to my sourcrs, on two ACs seem to be most favored bow. RAFALEs & Mirage2000-9 & even amongs them Mirage2000-9 seems to be more favored.
We should try get some 2nd hand F-15s for free. That will would bring some major edge in Air Defence & the Su-30MKIs would be in check almost all the time. Not only AESA radars & AMRAAMs would keep them off Pakistani AirSpance but the possible threat of a Dog Fight with F-15s.
We should try get some 2nd hand F-15s for free. That will would bring some major edge in Air Defence & the Su-30MKIs would be in check almost all the time. Not only AESA radars & AMRAAMs would keep them off Pakistani AirSpance but the possible threat of a Dog Fight with F-15s.
rafale_2k5
New Member
SABRE said:
Well i think were countin the chickens even be4 the eggs have hatched , wait 4 these 24 to be cleared , i still have my lingering doubts oer AESA n AMRAAMs , doubt whether these shall be cleared , a case in study is Egypt which despite having around 200 F-16s lacks the BVR capbility!!!! and talkin about F-15s is goin oer the board plus the allied costs of infrastructure n other things would be tremendous , even if US consented i seriously doubt whethr PAF shall be able to afford such an under taking!!!!!
the F-15s seem to be a long shot...
But i dont see any need for the Gripen, since we know can get hold of something equavelent or better, F-16 block 50/52+ (maybe block 60!)! and i personally feel that the Gripen is more prone to sanctions then the F-16. Sweden has one of the thoughest export control laws in the world, especially when the deal is regarding high-tech offensive weapons. The swedish public (or to be more precise the swedish media) doesnt see pakistan as a important ally in the war on terror, but more as a backward military controlled fundamentalist country. So convincing them of selling us, sanction free Gripens is a very very hard task, and i dont see us succeeding.
My opinion: PAF should go for more F-16s, buy 70 new built block 50/52+ (or a mixture of block 52+ and block 60 if it suits our need better) and get the old ones MLU. then see whats on the market. Maybe the Rafale might be out there in a new version/block 2, the price might be a bit lower, then we should maybe consider that, or the mirage 2000-(9)? (cant remember which precisely, but SABRE mentioned it sometime back, and it sounded like a good AC)
But i dont see any need for the Gripen, since we know can get hold of something equavelent or better, F-16 block 50/52+ (maybe block 60!)! and i personally feel that the Gripen is more prone to sanctions then the F-16. Sweden has one of the thoughest export control laws in the world, especially when the deal is regarding high-tech offensive weapons. The swedish public (or to be more precise the swedish media) doesnt see pakistan as a important ally in the war on terror, but more as a backward military controlled fundamentalist country. So convincing them of selling us, sanction free Gripens is a very very hard task, and i dont see us succeeding.
My opinion: PAF should go for more F-16s, buy 70 new built block 50/52+ (or a mixture of block 52+ and block 60 if it suits our need better) and get the old ones MLU. then see whats on the market. Maybe the Rafale might be out there in a new version/block 2, the price might be a bit lower, then we should maybe consider that, or the mirage 2000-(9)? (cant remember which precisely, but SABRE mentioned it sometime back, and it sounded like a good AC)
SABRE said:
AESA isn't a magic stick, granted it has befits over teh Doplar generations, but it also has Overheads, the Tech is considerably new, Size matters when AESA is concerned. all these factors have to factored inn when procureing a System.
As i see it PAF was interested in Grippens because of the TDL systems. The grippen can perform brilliantly when integrated with the whole Swedish Package. and i think PAF is going for swedish data-links. Eyrie is the AEW&C and According some information the JF-17 will have swedish Datalinks with French/Pakistani Avionics. It not all about hardware we (capability analysts) have to look at the requirements Capabilities vs Costs of each of the AC. you don't always have to pit a rock against a rock. you need strategy and well designed matured TDL systems as the Swedish system which worth a look. Swedish TDL's is still one of the best of it class.
And put grippens with redundant amount of AEW&C Assets you will have a very sturdy defense to defend your self from anything coming your way.
No, incorrect. The US was using AESA systems in the 50's. What has changed is that they've succeeded in miniaturising it for aircraft - and that was first done over 15 years ago. Also, the incoming APG-81 has passed a number of tests where they are now talking about making it a sealed unit as it is so reliable. Read into that and you can draw some very specific conclusions about efficiency and capability. The APG-81 will be on the JSF and F-22 - the indications are that if necessary, it can be fitted onto the F-15's. It's smaller and more efficient than the 79.adsH said:
The Israelis have also developed a small AESA solution which is regarded as a highly competitive solution for current Mirage users.
AESA is getting thrown around like some new buzzword when what should be discussed is symbiotic capability of a countries BMS. Without an integrated BMS, all the talk about networks, netcentric committments, AESA, PESA is just fanciful talk.
kashifshahzad
Banned Member
Mirage is a good choice we are operating some versions of it no way for grippens caz a lot of senctions hurdles it also uses US parts so why done have US planes in PAF . I am just wondernd that when we will have Thrust vectoring Engine Jets I am impressed after seeing the video of SU-35 posted in a thread in the militery AviationSABRE said:
The absolute utility benefit of TVC in manned aircraft is now questionable.kashifshahzad said:
do the maths:
Pilot - can cope with 9G's of shift - then they will black out and/or lose co-ordination
Missile - can turn at 30-40g - no blackouts
the benefit died when off bore sight missiles were developed - if you have an offbore sight missile that is TVC'd and is multiple seekered then it's kill envelope is going to be much more dangerous than a pilot who is trying to evade.
TVC on manned aircraft is great for airshows - it has a really really limited utility in manned aircraft.
Cost benefit analysis. 60-80 x TVC missiles for the cost of your typical $40M manned aircraft.
Whether we like it or not, manned combat aircraft have a limited future in holistic terms.
gf0012-aust said:
A force like PAF still needs a good AEW&C DATAlinks thats what they need rather then then Fancy AESA units. granted the F-16 would come with them the JF-17 have been designed with the Previous Gen Doppler's simply because they are cheaper and made locally, i'm aware of the drawbacks of the Doppler's scanning Rate, and the AESA Directed Energy Beams abilities to track multiple targets. Nothing a Good AEW&C integrated with a Good TDL can't provide. AESA vs TDL i would Go for TDL since cash is scarce in PAF. this what i think GF personally i know AESA has advantages.
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