F-16's done, What should PAF's next acquisition be?

[kashifshahzad]

Yaar why cant you understand that you have an engine then why cant you copy that ok ok Pakistan is making its planes and why cant it build its engine too so the whole plane will be complete and after doing some variations we can have other versions of planes like b,c etc

 

[BilalK]

I think PAF will get something like Block-52+ or Block-60 F-16, and I think they should get something like 80. In addition to that, 60 Multirole Rafales, for post-2012 situations.

 

[rafale_2k5]

Yaar chineese also have Sukoi then why cant Pakistan have an option to have them form China because they are also manufacturing SU

I must have posted the details but my mouse is not working i cant copy and paste all that stuff right when i will get the chance then i will post then any other time

Firstly any such like venture would require Russian approval, secondly chnese have yet to reach that stage where they could manufacture world class engines although ws-10A the derivative 4 al-31fn used in J-10s is undergoin trials but yet to be fielded n cleared from production point of view. The chinese have recently signed a deal 4 , 250 al-31fn from russia engines which is testimony to te fact that WS-10A is behnd schedule. All in all it is not easy to photo copy anything ranging from engines to avionics its a wholly different ball game. Take the case of JF-17 despite bein a F-16 chappa falls behind even earlier F-16A/B models. Although it may have superior avionics but performance parameters r seriously short of baseline F-16A/B versions .

 

[corsair7772]

The PAF is standardising on 3 types only at the moment. A hitech fighter, F-16 and JF-17. This is from official sources. So the J-10+gripen combo is not feasible. Also regarding what kashif said, you cant have pure attack aircraft in a force as restrained as the PAF. You buy multirole aircraft to save money but perform all missions.

Id recommend going in for an upgraded J-10 or Raphael. After years of political restraints, the PAF should be willing to paymore inorder to attain a freedom from political stringincies. I think a J-10 fitted out with French avionics and some chinese ones, enough to ensure compatibility with the Eyerie, would be best. At current rates a J-10 costs $25 million a piece. With the upgrade itll cost $45~65 mill a piece, still affordable.

When in future, say by 2014 the current F-16 become redundant the PAF might want to look into the russian models which have been copied by the Chinese like the Su-30 renamed he J-13. And for that matter the J-X which is supposed to meet the F-22 in combat.

In reality you dont really need a brand new fighter if your willing to make concessions. You could build upo a ground based Air Def system like this:

20 Sa-10 SAMs (chinese copies or ex-CIS)
20 Ks-1
10 Ft-2000
30 mobile SAMS (HQ-7/Crotale)
950 Shoulder SAMs
600 Radar controlled mobile AA guns
3000~5000 AA guns

This should suffice to hold off massive hi tech strike. The PAF could use the JF-17s for interception in the point defence form if the fighters do get through and the Mirages for strike and interdiction. And then you could always buy some cheap J-10s of only chinese avionics to beef up the interceptors.

 

[kashifshahzad]

The PAF is standardising on 3 types only at the moment. A hitech fighter, F-16 and JF-17. This is from official sources. So the J-10+gripen combo is not feasible. Also regarding what kashif said, you cant have pure attack aircraft in a force as restrained as the PAF. You buy multirole aircraft to save money but perform all missions.

Yeah i think we both and the PAF agrees in this matter we cant afford a single typs of aircraft to attack and get the air superiority.

Id recommend going in for an upgraded J-10 or Raphael. After years of political restraints, the PAF should be willing to paymore inorder to attain a freedom from political stringincies. I think a J-10 fitted out with French avionics and some chinese ones, enough to ensure compatibility with the Eyerie, would be best. At current rates a J-10 costs $25 million a piece. With the upgrade itll cost $45~65 mill a piece, still affordable.

DESIGN

The single-engine J-10 fighter is similar in size to the Lockheed Martin F-16, with a rectangle belly air intake, low-mounted delta wings and a pair of from canard wings. The design is aerodynamically unstable, to provide a high level of agility, low drag and enhanced lift. The pilot controls the aircraft through a computerised digital fly-by-wire (FBW) system, which provides artificial stabilisation and gust elevation to give good control characteristics throughout the flight envelope. The J-10 is also the first Chinese-made fighter to be fitted with a large two-piece bubble canopy to give the pilot a better view in close air combat.

POWERPLANT

The initial low-rate production J-10s are powered by the 27,500lb-thrust (120kN) Russian Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan rated at 17,857 lb (79.43 kN) dry and 27,557 lb st (122.58 kN) with afterburning. The same powerplant is also being used by Chinese air force's Su-27s and Su-30s. Lyulka-Saturn reportedly delivered 54 AL-31F turbofan engines to China between 2002 and 2004. These are the AL-31FN model with special modifications to be fitted in the J-10.

China is also developing its own WS-10A turbofan powerplant, and it could be fitted on the later versions of the J-10. An all-aspect vectored-thrust version of the AL-31F was revealed for the first time at Zhuhai Air Show 1998, leading to speculation that this advanced engine may wind up on the J-10, potentially conferring phenomenal manoeuvrability.

SPECIFICATIONS

Crew: 1 (basic variant); 2 (fighter-trainer variant)
Dimensions: N/A
Weight: N/A
Max Speed: Mach 1.2 (sea-level) or Mach 2.0 (high altitude)
Range: Combat radius over 550km
Service Ceiling: N/A
Max Climb Rate: N/A
G Limit: N/A

My opinion is this that the design of J-10 is similar to that of F-16 if we get much F-16's which could meet our AC's need for year 2020 i think this will be sufficient if the block 60 is available then F-16's will be best for airforce with BVR's capability and having a lot of SAM site in defence.The range of J-10 is not sufficient i dont know whether the range of this plane is given correct or it true but the main thing which i want to mention is this IF CHINA develops its own AC engine then this will be good thing i have also heard that the FC-1 thunder is also going to use Chinees engine in the comming aircrafts i dont know when the batch will arrive .Spend less find a more suitable plane for the airforce superior then F-16's because they are gonna die after some years and then the Indian SU's will be upon us so make a correct decision.

When in future, say by 2014 the current F-16 become redundant the PAF might want to look into the russian models which have been copied by the Chinese like the Su-30 renamed he J-13. And for that matter the J-X which is supposed to meet the F-22 in combat.

J-11 AIR SUPERIORITY FIGHTER AIRCRAFT

The Shenyang Jian-11 (J-11) is a Chinese licensed copy of the Russian Sukhoi SU-27SK single-seat fighter aircraft. Under the 1996 agreement between Shenyang Aircraft Industry Company (SAC) and Sukhoi, China would build 200 J-11/Su-27SK fighters, initially using Russian supplied kits and later with greater indigenous contents. China is also seeking to upgrade the J-11 with better avionics and weapon suites, and is currently developing a new turbofan engine and fire-control radar for aircraft. About 90~100 J-11s had been reportedly made by 2004.

I havent heard about the J-13

In reality you dont really need a brand new fighter if your willing to make concessions. You could build upo a ground based Air Def system like this:

20 Sa-10 SAMs (chinese copies or ex-CIS)
20 Ks-1
10 Ft-2000
30 mobile SAMS (HQ-7/Crotale)
950 Shoulder SAMs
600 Radar controlled mobile AA guns
3000~5000 AA guns

SA-2 Surface To Air Missile

Class: Medium Range, Surface to Air Missile System
Origin: China Length: 10.7 meters
Diameter: 70.0 cm
Tail Span: 54.0 cm
Weight: 2300.0 Kg
Warhead: 130 Kg High Explosive
Propulsion: Solid Propellant Booser with Liquid Propellant Sustainer
Guidance: Radio Command
Max Speed: 3.5 Mach
Max Range: 60 KM
Ceiling: 85,000 feet
​

Cortale Surface To Air Missile

Mobile, Automatic, All Weather Surface to Air Missile System
Origin: France
Length: 2.94 Meters
Diameter: 16.0 Cm
Weight: 80.0 Kg
Warhead: 15 Kg High Explosive
Propulsion: Single Stage Solid Propellant
Guidance: Command to Line of Sight
Max Speed: 2.3 Mach
Max Range: 11 KM
Reload Time: 2 min Intercept Range: 10.000m max or 500m min
​

Anza Mk I, II, III

Class: Manpad, Short range Anti Aircraft Missile
Origil: KRL, Pakistan Length: 1.5 meters
Diameter: 07.2 cm
Weight: 15.0 Kg
Warhead: 0.37 Kg Shaped Charge
Propulsion: Solid Propellant
Guidance: I R Homing


​

Mistral
​

In addition to these missiles PAF & Air Defence Command also use French made Mistral missiles with following details avalible

Max Speed: 3.5 Mach
Max Range: 6.0 KM
Warhead: 130 Kg High Explosive
​

Air Defence Command

Organisation
​

Air defense command is divided into following,

Northern Air Command (Peshawar)
Central Air Command (Sargodha)
Southern Air Command (Masroor)

Subordinate to it are four sector operations centers and subordinate to the SOC's are seven Control And Reporting Centers. The Sectors HQ are

North : Peshawar
West : Quetta
Center : Sargodha
South : Karachi

Long Range Radar Systems

FPS-89/100 It is located at ten locations. It has a search range of 350 km.
Type 514 This is a Chinese system acquired in 1985.
Condor This high-level system was acquired from UK in 1986.
TPS-43 G This is an advanced American radar system with a 275 mile range. These were commissioned in 1989

***Thompson CSF These are ATC radars that correspond to Pakistan's growing civil air traffic routes, but they are ideally placed to boost early warning from the Indian border

Low Level Radars

AR-1/15Six AR-1 radars were installed in 1968-9. They have a range of 150 km.
MPDR45 MPDRs were obtained from Siemens of Germany in 1979-80. They are controlled from six control and reporting centers which are also mobile. The three versions available with Pakistan are :
MPDR 45 (with 45 km. range)
MPDR 60 (with 60 km. range)
MPDR 90 (with 90 km. range)

This is what Pakistan posess in Air Defence Field

 

[kashifshahzad]

Firstly any such like venture would require Russian approval, secondly chnese have yet to reach that stage where they could manufacture world class engines although ws-10A the derivative 4 al-31fn used in J-10s is undergoin trials but yet to be fielded n cleared from production point of view. The chinese have recently signed a deal 4 , 250 al-31fn from russia engines which is testimony to te fact that WS-10A is behnd schedule. All in all it is not easy to photo copy anything ranging from engines to avionics its a wholly different ball game. Take the case of JF-17 despite bein a F-16 chappa falls behind even earlier F-16A/B models. Although it may have superior avionics but performance parameters r seriously short of baseline F-16A/B versions .

China is also developing its own WS-10A turbofan powerplant, and it could be fitted on the later versions of the J-10. An all-aspect vectored-thrust version of the AL-31F was revealed for the first time at Zhuhai Air Show 1998, leading to speculation that this advanced engine may wind up on the J-10, potentially conferring phenomenal manoeuvrability.

 

[Aussie Digger]

I think an additional purchase of F-16's should be made to bring the fleet up to around 100 fighters. On top of this, upgrades should be performed to provide a reasonable level of BVR A2A combat capabilities and additional strike capabilities included in your force structure including Stand-off weapons.


The nexxt major acquisition should be an AWACS capability. If your current fleet was upgraded and bolstered with the additional F-16's and new weapons such as AMRAAM, AIM-9x/IRIS-T or ASRAAM, plus JDAM's, JSOW, JASSM and AGM88 HARM, then your force would benefit more from an AWACS capability and possibly and A2A refuelling capability than another small fighter type no matter how advanced.

Only once all these capabilities were in place would a new fighter be appropriate to replace your older aircraft, IMHO.

 

[kashifshahzad]

My opinion is that all Aircrafts must be upgraded with BVR's capebility so they will become an effective force for the enemy if it is not possilbe then necessery requirements should be fulfilles the acurisition of an AWACS is help ful to our aircrafts but no one can deny the importance of a midair refuler

 

[Ahsan1]

My summary is like this:

Rafale: This aircraft will almost outclass the flankers, and will clear out any aircraft entering Pakistans Air Space. It has a termendous amount of payload, and great radar. It will counter the threat of MKIs thus clearing the battlefield for interceptors. Although it is expensive, but from my knowledge I think PAF can afford about 60 of them, which i think will be pretty good. Because we are still ready to counter threat from IAF even with 32 F-16s. By acquiring Rafales we will be able to import infrastructure plus weapons acquisition. Which will make PAF pretty powerful to clear the skies.

Grippen: From my point of view after the F-16s there is no need for them because they perform the same support. Although if PAF still wants to acquire one more 4th generation aircraft this will be the best choice after Rafales, because it is confirmed that Pakistan is getting AWACs from Sweden, so called Erieye with this there will be a huge data link programming in the sky. Thus making easier for PAF not only to get missions from the ground bases but also from the sky by their fellow mates.

J-10: There are rumors that it will have some sort of stealth. But this will be my last choice, because i personally prefer western technologies, but however this will be a real beast in form of model C and D. And also it will have power to eliminate Su-30s, and it will have a great support with its fellow mate JF-17 thus making a very good combo to fight!

Eurofighter: I believe Pakistan will not be able to get it, and even if it gets its hands on it, it will likely open the sanctions problems for the future because it is a joint fighter making it move venurable for sanctions.

JXX/XXJ: Will be the future aircraft for PAF when Raptors will be handy for USAF, and also when IAF will have its PAK-FA.[Comments deleted to prevent flame.]

Mod edit: Path: We have indian members on this site so please watch your language. Country bashing will not be tolerated.

Umair: Howcome you always beat me to the job path?:

 

[Elite Brain]

I'd want PAF to go for the Rafale. Its a damn good aircraft and free from any political strings. If the saudis buy 96 Rafales as was reported a few weeks ago....Pakistan should also place a joint order for the Airforce and the Rafale-M for the Naval air arm. For PAF...the F3 version of the Rafale could be upgraded lateron to the full F4 standard and the inclusion of the Apache cruise missiles would be a major plus point.

 

[kashifshahzad]

I'd want PAF to go for the Rafale. Its a damn good aircraft and free from any political strings. If the saudis buy 96 Rafales as was reported a few weeks ago....Pakistan should also place a joint order for the Airforce and the Rafale-M for the Naval air arm. For PAF...the F3 version of the Rafale could be upgraded lateron to the full F4 standard and the inclusion of the Apache cruise missiles would be a major plus point.

OK done Rafale is good AC HOW????? explain

Dont say that its shape is good when it takes a turns it looks beautiful to you and it also has cartoons on its body that why you like it

i have said that F-16 C/D and E/F are made to counter Rafale and other fighter competing in the europe

 

[kashifshahzad]

Dassault Rafale Origin:France

Type:multi-role combat aircraftMax Speed:1,150 kt / 1,324 mphMax Range1,093 km / 679 milesDimensions:span 10.90 m / 35 ft 9.125 in
length 15.30 m / 50 ft 2.375 in
height 5.34 m / 17 ft 6.25 inWeight:empty 9060 kg / 19,973 lb
maximum 19,500 kg / 42,990 lbPowerplant:two 7450-kg (16,424-lb) afterburning thrust SNECMA M88-2 turbofansArmamentne 30-mm DEFA 791 B cannon, plus provision for up to 6000 kg (13,228 Ib) of disposable stores carried on 14 external hardpoints





General Dynamics F-16C/D Fighting Falcon Origin:USA

Type:single-seat air-combat and multi-role fighterMax Speed:1,146 kt / 1,320 mphMax Range3,886 km / 2,415 milesDimensions:span 10.00 m / 32 ft 9.75 in
length 15.03 m / 49 ft 4 in
height 5.09 m / 16 ft 8.5 inWeight:empty 8,273 kg / 18,218 lb
max. take-off 19,187 lbPowerplant:{one 13154-kg (29,000-lb) afterburning thrust Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 or General Electric F110-GE-129 turbofanArmament:{one 20-mm M61A1 Vulcan cannon with 500 rounds, plus provision for up to 9276 kg (20,450 Ib) of externa ordnance on one underfuselage, six underwing and two tip hardpoints, this total declining to 5420 kg (11,950 Ib) for sorties including 9-g manoeuvres; the ordnance can include AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, a wide range of disposable ordnance (free-tall and guided), drop tanks and electronic pods (ECM, reconnaissance and targeting)

NOW COMPARE AND THEN SAY

If you say i can also send the spec of E/F too which are the latest versions of F-16's

 

[XEROX]

How does the PAF intend on paying for the [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rafales, dont they cost around $70million a piece
[/font]

 

[BilalK]

The multirole version of Rafale is supposedly somewhat cheaper than the current version.

 

[XEROX]

The Rafale C is the multi role a/c, but i think only the F-1 variant exists and thats only with a2a, the F-2 and F-3 will come with the air to ground,

The prices are, Dassault Rafale B $64.4million
Dassault Rafale C $60.6million
Dassault Rafale M $65million

Price Lists

 

[SABRE]

The price of the Rafale's multirole version is estimated to be from $30Million to $40Million.

A2A aircrafts are always expensive compared to Multirole. e.g: F-15s, F-14s, EF-2000, F-22 Raptor, Current versions of Rafale.

 

[Elite Brain]

OK done Rafale is good AC HOW????? explain

Dont say that its shape is good when it takes a turns it looks beautiful to you and it also has cartoons on its body that why you like it

i have said that F-16 C/D and E/F are made to counter Rafale and other fighter competing in the europe

 

[Elite Brain]

How does the PAF intend on paying for the [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rafales, dont they cost around $70million a piece
[/font]

Saudi Petro dollars, if they decide to go for the Rafales that is. The Erieye AWACS deal is rumoured to be a joint buy with Pakistan too so i wouldnt be surprised if they go for the RAFALE rather than the EuroFighter as a safe hedge from Anglo-American pressure..( Downgraded F-15's and the Al-Yamanah contract for the Tornados.)
You do the math. :coffee

 

[P.A.F]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kashifshahzad
OK done Rafale is good AC HOW????? explain

Dont say that its shape is good when it takes a turns it looks beautiful to you and it also has cartoons on its body that why you like it

i have said that F-16 C/D and E/F are made to counter Rafale and other fighter competing in the europe



You MORON....learn to speak english,shower once in a year and quit being a leech in the swamp hippo's ass.Your posts are idiotic and i think everyone here would agree with me.If you dont understand these words, look in the dictionary...if you know what that is.

Hey elite Brain i think u where a bit harsh to the guy there. calm down a bit. give the guy a chance. he will learn as time passes

anyway i totally agree with you on how PAF can get the rafales

 

[rafale_2k5]

OK done Rafale is good AC HOW????? explain

Dont say that its shape is good when it takes a turns it looks beautiful to you and it also has cartoons on its body that why you like it

i have said that F-16 C/D and E/F are made to counter Rafale and other fighter competing in the europe

It seemsd childish to compare two differnet type of design pholsphies where strengths of one cancel out those of the other , one a 70s era upgrade the other a future prospect , basically aircrafts r sought after basing upon the doctrinal underpinnings 4 that particular type of aircraft . IF EF was rejected by some country it doesnt mean that EF is crap but on the contrary it may not have met the particular requirements 4 some airforce. after all these aircrafts r 4.5 generation , with millions of dollars worth R&D involved !!!! wat really matters as how effectively u employ your strengths againdst the opponents weakness , n thats wat makes the difference between a god airforce anda bravado force which ultimately let itself be consumed more easily!!!! were not talkin WW2 tactics here mate and the ROE have chnged , quoting an EF pilot
"no self respecting figter pilot would want to end up in a fair dog fight " perhaps the quote sums up it all!!!! theres no point bradishing paper figures because there r so many variables ranging from operational to logistics that need to be taken into acount. In the end it all revolves around price vs capability offered maatrix !!!!!! other wise if one has the pocket than why shouldnt one go 4 F-22s rather than wastime on whos who?? senarios....