F-16's done, What should PAF's next acquisition be?

Which one?

  • Rafales

    Votes: 15 57.7%
  • Eurofighter

    Votes: 5 19.2%
  • JSF

    Votes: 6 23.1%
  • F15E

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    26
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corsair7772

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
PJ-10 BrahMos said:
The Rafale C is the multi role a/c, but i think only the F-1 variant exists and thats only with a2a, the F-2 and F-3 will come with the air to ground,

The prices are, Dassault Rafale B $64.4million
Dassault Rafale C $60.6million
Dassault Rafale M $65million

Price Lists
WOAH!!! Whered you get these figures? If the Rafale was so cheap dont you think we wouldve been tripping over ourselves trying to buy it?

The Mirage-2005 costs exactly $100million a piece. Which is why in the late 1990s France wanted $4 billion for 40 Mirages whereas Pakistan wanted to pay $3.25 billion for the lot cuz it needed $750 million to upgrade the ADGE(which incase you dont know is Pakistans Ground Radar surveillance system.)
Pakistan later tried to but the Airframe and engine alone from dassault, and tried to get the rest from various countries off the shelf. This wouldve bought down the M-2000 price from 100 to $27.5 million! Dassault ofcourse was not impressed and shooed us awy.

I think you got these figures from Veneks Aviation probably cuz they must be incorrect. Ill try to get another figure but for the time being ill accept yours.
Hell theyve even listed the M-2000 figures somewhat incorrect. They say that the M-2000 costs $30 million a piece whereas if i recall correctly then the entire price of a single upgrade for the Greek Airforce M-2000s was $34.5million ! Ofcourse the upG could cost more than the aircraft, perfectly reasonable buy i think ur figures are out of date. Better search for some more.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Elite Brain said:
You MORON....learn to speak english,shower once in a year and quit being a leech in the swamp hippo's ass.Your posts are idiotic and i think everyone here would agree with me.If you dont understand these words, look in the dictionary...if you know what that is. :rolleyes:
Elite, that kind of response is really unacceptable. If you're unhappy with the response from another poster, work out a polite way to express your dissatisfaction.
 

kashifshahzad

Banned Member
Lockheed Martin F-16E/F Block 60/62 Fighting Falcon

Last revised May 8, 2004


</H1>

For a long time, it was uncertain if there would be a Block 60/62 version of the F-16C/D. However, in 1994 the United Arab Emirates (UAE) indicated that they needed 80 long-range strike fighters. The UAE wanted the latest available technology incorporated into these planes, and they indicated that if the USA was not willing to release such technologies, they might consider such competitors as the Eurofighter and the Dassault Rafale.

In pursuit of the UAE contract, Lockheed Martin came up with a delta-winged design based largely on the F-16XL. Wingroot troughs could hold four AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles, and a thrust-vectoring General Electric F110 engine was proposed. The delta-winged F-16 was to carry an improved radar, an internal FLIR and laser designation system, and an improved cockpit with a much more advanced set of multi-function and liquid-crystal displays.

However, very early on Lockheed Martin began to develop second thoughts about such an advanced aircraft, and began to consider a more conventional design for the UAE. The UAE had indicated that they were reluctant to commit themselves to an untried aircraft, one which had no other customers and in particular one in which the USAF was uninterested. By this time, the Pentagon had indicated that they were interested in the Joint Advanced Strike Technology (JAST) project as a potential replacement for the F-16. Lockheed Martin was a contender for the JAST project, and since the delta-winged F-16 could outperform the JAST in virtually every aspect except stealth and for considerably less money, the company might end up competing against itself. The delta-winged F-16 project was quietly shelved.

Lockheed then proposed a Block 60/62 lot of F-16C/Ds for the UAE order. The Block 60/62 would be largely based on the earlier Block 50/52, but would have an internal targeting and navigation system similar to LANTIRN but with only the sensor heads outside the aircraft. However, the Block 60/62 designation would not be applied until the aircraft actually enter production.

Again, two alternative engines would be offered. The Block 60 would be powered by the General Electric F110-GE-129EFE (Enhanced Fighter Engine), which would offer 34,000 lb.s.t with possible growth to 36,000 lb.s.t. The Block 62 would be powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229A which offers 32,000 lb.s.t, with possible growth to 35,900 lb.s.t. Both of these engines are available with thrust vectoring.

The Block 60/62 will be equipped with a Northrop Grumman sensor suite that will be based on the APG-68(V)5 radar. It is an integrated system that will have an internal targeting and navigation system similar to LANTIRN but with only the sensor heads outside the aircraft. An Agile Beam Radar (ABR) will be provided which will have an active array with a large number of transmit/receive modules This beam can be steered almost instantaneously, making it possible to interleave various radar modes. For example, the radar could search for surface targets and do terrain-following while simultaneously searching for airborne threats.

The cockpit will have the backup electromechanical instruments removed, and three full-color displays will be added.

An attempt will be made to use commercially-available products such as PowerPC and Pentium processors, and the Ethernet databus will be used.

After two years of negotiations (including a controversy of whether computer software codes would be released), the UAE signed contracts on March 5, 2000 for 55 single seat and 25 two-seat Block 60 F-16s. These planes would be known as Desert Falcon. On March 14, it was announced that the powerplant would be the General Electric F110-GE-132, an uprated version of the existing F-16 engine which can deliver 32,000 lb.s.t.

Norway has also expressed an interest in the advanced Block 60 F-16. The RNoAF will require a modern multi-role fighter as it transitions between its F-16 MLU aircraft and the future JSF. Greece and Israel have expressed interest in the Block 60 as well. The advanced F-16 faces stiff competition for these export orders from the Eurofighter and the Dassault Rafaele. However, at the moment, it does not appear that the USAF will itself be interested in a Block 60 F-16, since the JSF is scheduled to replace the F-16 beginning in 2008. This is, of course, subject to change if the JSF is delayed or turns out to be more expensive than expected.

The planned under-nose integrated FLIR targeting system (IFTS) has been replaced by a new podded FLIR mounted on the intake hardpoints. Apparently, there were problems in achieving the promised performance with the original layout. The Northrop Grumman AAQ-32 targeting FLIR and laser designator has been repackaged in a new station. However, the original wide-area navigation FLIR housing above the nose will still be there. The Northrop Grumman APG-68(V)5 agile-beam radar has been redesignated APG-80. The Block 60 aircraft will be capable ob delivering the EGBU-24 Paveway III, the Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM), and the Wind-Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD). In addition, it will be able to carry the AGM-88 HARM, the AIM-9M Sidewinder, and the AIM-120 AMRAAM.

In 2003, the Block 60 was redesignated F-16E/F, in recognition of the major structural, avionics and propulsion system advancements, which make the Block 60 a practically new version of the F-16. The first of 80 Block 60 F-16s for the United Arab Emirates Air Force made its maiden flight at Fort Worth on December 6, 2003. It bore the serial 3001 and wore the civil registration of N161LM. Deliveries are scheduled to run from 2004 to 2007.




Read this lol then say what do you think about rafales .I think you are Prasident of Dassault If Pakistan is not gonna to Buy your Rafales then you are showing this kind of behaviour which you use at home.


WOAH!!! Whered you get these figures? If the Rafale was so cheap dont you think we wouldve been tripping over ourselves trying to buy it?

The Mirage-2005 costs exactly $100million a piece. Which is why in the late 1990s France wanted $4 billion for 40 Mirages whereas Pakistan wanted to pay $3.25 billion for the lot cuz it needed $750 million to upgrade the ADGE(which incase you dont know is Pakistans Ground Radar surveillance system.)
Pakistan later tried to but the Airframe and engine alone from dassault, and tried to get the rest from various countries off the shelf. This wouldve bought down the M-2000 price from 100 to $27.5 million! Dassault ofcourse was not impressed and shooed us awy.

I think you got these figures from Veneks Aviation probably cuz they must be incorrect. Ill try to get another figure but for the time being ill accept yours.
Hell theyve even listed the M-2000 figures somewhat incorrect. They say that the M-2000 costs $30 million a piece whereas if i recall correctly then the entire price of a single upgrade for the Greek Airforce M-2000s was $34.5million ! Ofcourse the upG could cost more than the aircraft, perfectly reasonable buy i think ur figures are out of date. Better search for some more.
I dont think Pakistan in 3Billion dollars is going to buy these Rafales.

50 Rafales = 3 billion gone (price of one Rafale 60 million ) all prices are in $

Only we will be able to form 3-4 Squardons

And when you consider the Prices of F-16's the price of single AC is about 25million $ we can have 150 AC's .


My Sujjestion is this Pakistan must go for F-16's first then make JF-17 side by side and Buy J-XX or J-10's and the chance for JH-7 bomber is also there so P.A.F do you agree
 

Elite Brain

New Member
gf0012-aust said:
Elite, that kind of response is really unacceptable. If you're unhappy with the response from another poster, work out a polite way to express your dissatisfaction.
Point taken, but you have to admit, that character is pretty damn annoying and most of his utterings are pure BS. But i shall restrain myself from now on.....:mad:
 

kashifshahzad

Banned Member
Elite Brain said:
Point taken, but you have to admit, that character is pretty damn annoying and most of his utterings are pure BS. But i shall restrain myself from now on.....:mad:
First read above there must be some mistake from me in my english i will try to cover up but thins kind of behaviour i wanst expecting that :(
 

umair

Peace Enforcer
The Rafale C is the multi role a/c, but i think only the F-1 variant exists and thats only with a2a, the F-2 and F-3 will come with the air to ground
All Rafales delivered from 2003 onwards are of F2 standard.
 

kashifshahzad

Banned Member
SRIRANGAN DO YOU REALLY KNOW WHAT THE JSF IS:

Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

The Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is a multi-role fighter optimized for the air-to-ground role, designed to affordably meet the needs of the Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps and allies, with improved survivability, precision engagement capability, the mobility necessary for future joint operations and the reduced life cycle costs associated with tomorrow’s fiscal environment. JSF will benefit from many of the same technologies developed for F-22 and will capitalize on commonality and modularity to maximize affordability.

The 1993 Bottom-Up Review (BUR) determined that a separate tactical aviation modernization program by each Service was not affordable and canceled the Multi-Role Fighter (MRF) and Advanced Strike Aircraft (A/F-X) program. Acknowledging the need for the capability these canceled programs were to provide, the BUR initiated the Joint Advanced Strike Technology (JAST) effort to create the building blocks for affordable development of the next-generation strike weapons system. After a review of the program in August 1995, DoD dropped the "T" in the JAST program and the JSF program has emerged from the JAST effort. Fiscal Year 1995 legislation merged the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) Advanced Short Take-off and Vertical Landing (ASTOVL) program with the JSF Program. This action drew the United Kingdom (UK) Royal Navy into the program, extending a collaboration begun under the DARPA ASTOVL program.

The JSF program will demonstrate two competing weapon system concepts for a tri-service family of aircraft to affordably meet these service needs:









USAF-Multi-role aircraft (primarily air-to-ground) to replace F-16 and A-10 and to complement F-22. The Air Force JSF variant poses the smallest relative engineering challenge. The aircraft has no hover criteria to satisfy, and the characteristics and handling qualities associated with carrier operations do not come into play. As the biggest customer for the JSF, the service will not accept a multirole F-16 fighter replacement that doesn't significantly improve on the original.

USN-Multi-role, stealthy strike fighter to complement F/A-18E/F. Carrier operations account for most of the differences between the Navy version and the other JSF variants. The aircraft has larger wing and tail control surfaces to better manage low-speed approaches. The internal structure of the Navy variant is strengthened up to handle the loads associated with catapult launches and arrested landings. The aircraft has a carrier-suitable tailhook. Its landing gear has a longer stroke and higher load capacity. The aircraft has almost twice the range of an F-18C on internal fuel. The design is also optimized for survivability.

USMC-Multi-role Short Take-Off & Vertical Landing (STOVL) strike fighter to replace AV-8B and F/A-18A/C/D. The Marine variant distinguishes itself from the other variants with its short takeoff/vertical landing capability. UK-STOVL (supersonic) aircraft to replace the Sea Harrier. Britain's Royal Navy JSF will be very similar to the U.S. Marine variant.






The JSF concept is building these three highly common variants on the same production line using flexible manufacturing technology. Cost benefits result from using a flexible manufacturing approach and common subsystems to gain economies of scale. Cost commonality is projected in the range of 70-90 percent; parts commonality will be lower, but emphasis is on commonality in the higher-priced parts.

Key design goals of the JSF system include:



Survivability:</B> radio frequency/infrared signature reduction and on-board countermeasures to survive in the future battlefield--leveraging off F-22 air superiority mission support



Lethality: integration of on- and off-board sensors to enhance delivery of current and future precision weapons

Supportability: reduced logistics footprint and increased sortie generation rate to provide more combat power earlier in theater

Affordability: focus on reducing cost of developing, procuring and owning JSF to provide adequate force structure






JSF’s integrated avionics and stealth are intended to allow it to penetrate surface-to-air missile defenses to destroy targets, when enabled by the F-22’s air dominance. The JSF is designed to complement a force structure that includes other stealthy and non-stealthy fighters, bombers, and reconnaissance / surveillance assets.

JSF requirements definition efforts are based on the principles of Cost as an Independent Variable: Early interaction between the warfighter and developer ensures cost / performance trades are made early, when they can most influence weapon system cost. The Joint Requirements Oversight Council has endorsed this approach.

The JSF’s approved acquisition strategy provides for the introduction of an alternate engine during Lot 5 of the production phase, the first high rate production lot. OSD is considering several alternative implementation plans which would accelerate this baseline effort.

Program Status

The focus of the program is producing effectiveness at an affordable price—the Air Force’s unit flyaway cost objective is $28 million (FY94$). This unit recurring flyaway cost is down from a projected, business as usual,cost of $36 million. The Concept Demonstration Phase (CDP) was initiated in November 1996 with the selection of Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Both contractors are: (1) designing and building their concept demonstration aircraft, (2) performing unique ground demonstrations, (3) developing their weapon systems concepts. First operational aircraft delivery is planned for FY08.

The JSF is a joint program with shared acquisition executive responsibilities. The Air Force and Navy each provide approximately equal shares of annual funding, while the United Kingdom is a collaborative partner, contributing $200 million to the CDP. CDP, also known as the Program Definition and Risk Reduction (PDRR) phase, consists of three parallel efforts leading to Milestone II and an Engineering and Manufacturing Development (EMD) start in FY01:





Concept Demonstration Program. The two CDP contracts were competitively awarded to Boeing and Lockheed Martin for ground and flight demonstrations at a cost of $2.2 billion for the 51-month effort, including an additional contract to Pratt & Whitney for the engine. Each CDP contractor will build concept demonstrator aircraft (designated X-32/35). Each contractor will demonstrate commonality and modularity, short take-off and vertical landing, hover and transition, and low-speed carrier approach handling qualities of their aircraft.



Technology Maturation. These efforts evolve key technologies to lower risk for EMD entry. Parallel technology maturation demonstrations are also an integral part of the CDP / PDRR objective of meeting warfighting needs at an affordable cost. Focus is on seven critical areas: avionics, flight systems, manufacturing and producibility, propulsion, structures and materials, supportability, and weapons. Demonstration plans are coordinated with the prime weapon system contractors and results are made available to all program industry participants.

Requirements Definition. This effort leads to Joint Operational Requirements Document completion in FY00; cost/performance trades are key to the process.
<H1 align=center>Specifications

Functionstrike fighter Contractortwo competing teams:
Lockheed-Martin
Boeing Service U.S. Air Force U.S. Marine Corps
U.K. Royal Navy U.S. Navy Variants Conventional Takeoff and Landing (CTOL) Short Takeoff and Vertical Landing (STOVL) Carrier-based (CV) Unit Cost FY94$ $28M $35M $38M Propulsion Baseline: Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 derivative from F-22 Raptor
Alternate Engine: General Electric F120 core Thrust Empty Weight ~22,500 lbs ~24,000 lbs Internal Fuel 15,000 lbs 16,000 lbs Payload 13,000 lbs 17,000 lbs Maximum Takeoff Weight ~50,000 lbs Length 45 feet Wingspan 36 feet 30 feet Height Ceiling Speed supersonic Combat Radius over 600 nautical miles Crew one Armament First flight 1999 Date Deployed 2008 Inventory Objectives U.S. Air Force
2,036 aircraft U.S. Marine Corps
642 aircraft

U.K. Royal Navy
60 aircraft U.S. Navy
300 aircraft









I want to know on which bases you included this aircraft in this poll??

 
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XEROX

New Member
WOAH!!! Whered you get these figures? If the Rafale was so cheap dont you think we wouldve been tripping over ourselves trying to buy it?
These figures are on this forum:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=952&page=1

and i got the figures from:
http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/military_aircraft_prices.htm


All Rafales delivered from 2003 onwards are of F2 standard.
It was my understanding that the export version of the F2 standard would be made available after 2006 and F3 during 2012, does France currently have F2 standard Rafales??
 
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SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
kashifshahzad said:

I want to know on which bases you included this aircraft in this poll??

The ACs in the poll are inducted on the bases of countering Su-30MKI. I guess.

Sri I would exclude JSF if u have mentioned JSF on the basis for countering MKI.
 

adsH

New Member
SABRE said:
The ACs in the poll are inducted on the bases of countering Su-30MKI. I guess.

Sri I would exclude JSF if u have mentioned JSF on the basis for countering MKI.
The Main aim of the JSF is to provide deap strike Capability, variants have been designed to meet the requirements of different Services. the USAF (If they are going for it) would expect it to be a new Weapons Truck. its BVR capability should be brilliant overall its cannot match the Raptor in A2A. But that doesn't mean that it can't go in to the theater without escorts. Having said that i must insist (unless someone can Correct me with facts) it has Limited A2A capability. if it was a capable A2A AC then you'd see USAF and RAF procuring these instead of the Raptor or Typhoons. We (RN) has plans to use VTOL Variant in conjunction with other Services like RAF, USN, USAF extended A2A Capabilities (Inter-dependencies). The RN's JSF will work in conjuntion with our Type 45 Fleet defense systems.

Type 45 Armaments
The Principal Anti Air Missile System (PAAMS), with the BAE SYSTEMS SAMPSON Multi-Functional Radar (MFR) (for surveillance and fire control) and the Signaal/Marconi S1850M Long Range Radar (LRR) for air/surface search.
SYLVER launcher and combination of up to 48 Aster15 and Aster30 missiles.

This interdependency means we will not be able work outside our Role in any other Conflict. we would have set parameters in any Coalition led conflict. I guess we can reassure our selves that Royal Air-force Still maintains a comprehensive air superiority capability.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
The JSF is primarily being designed as a stealthy battlefield strike/interdiction aircraft. It has inherent A2A capabilities that are being designed to exceed that of F-16/F-18 series fighters, but A2A is not it's primary role. It will be significantly inferior to F-22, and possibly Eurofighter Typhoon in the A2A role.
Unfortunately will be used in the A2A role however by the majority of Countries that will end up buying it (like Australia)...
 

kashifshahzad

Banned Member
Aussie Digger said:
The JSF is primarily being designed as a stealthy battlefield strike/interdiction aircraft. It has inherent A2A capabilities that are being designed to exceed that of F-16/F-18 series fighters, but A2A is not it's primary role. It will be significantly inferior to F-22, and possibly Eurofighter Typhoon in the A2A role.
Unfortunately will be used in the A2A role however by the majority of Countries that will end up buying it (like Australia)...
So aussie what do you think when and whether Pakistan is going to buy this plane and in which year
 

BilalK

New Member
Shhhh!...you'll get him killed...

Anyways, I prefer if the PAF goes for 40-60 Mirage 2000-9s, I know its unlikely, but that is such a good airframe, and a customized PAF version should not cost too much either! :(
 

kashifshahzad

Banned Member
srirangan said:
Lol! He don't got no crystal ball .. does he?
Sri Please include the F-117 nighthawk and the B-2 Spirit may be Pakistan get them in 2050 when the US will be dumping them so include them quickly

Yaar what a kind of stipid person you are you have opened the thread and you come here see the posts and do not reply you have opened this thread to mislead the Pakistanis yaar think how Pakistan and when Pakistan can get those JSF there is only design present then they will be manufatured then they will be used then they wil be exported to chosen countries ha ha so sad :(
 

kashifshahzad

Banned Member
BilalK said:
Shhhh!...you'll get him killed...

Anyways, I prefer if the PAF goes for 40-60 Mirage 2000-9s, I know its unlikely, but that is such a good airframe, and a customized PAF version should not cost too much either! :(
See the Prices and then sujjest

Dassault Mirage 2000 1997 appr. $35
What will the Price in 2005 think :)
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
If Pakistan is able (ie: financially and politically) to purchase the JSF then I would expect the purchase to be some time after 2015. The first production JSF won't fly until 2008.

The USA is obviously the first customer for the JSF and won't receive a LRIP aircraft until 2010. First full rate production aircraft is expected to come off the line in 2012, accepting that everything goes well and the aircraft meets it's design requirements.

Then there will be a massive order book to fill. The US alone, will (probably) be purchasing around 1700 JSF's (USAF, USN and USMC orders) UK around 150, Australia around 100, plus there is strong interest from at least 5 other countries (the participants in the SDD phase of the program) which could lead to another 500+ orders from these countries alone.

IF all the countries that have already taken part in the program, purchase the aircraft that they have stated that they will, you have an order book of at least 2500 aircraft, before ANYONE else will get any aircraft.

At best I'd say that Pakistan would be extremely lucky to get a JSF by 2015, no matter how much access they were given and how much money they had to spend. An in-service date would probably be closer to 2020. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. Most of the PAF's aircraft would need replacement by then anyway...

I think it would be a good aircraft for Pakistan. It's one that India probably won't ever get and one with the necessary stealth to have a good chance of surviving the intense air defence networks in use in that region. I think the JSF is likely to be a good multi-role stealth strike/fighter aircraft. I just don't think it's a particularly good aircraft to operate as your SOLE combat aircraft.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
First AD if Pakistan goes for JSF it would be in 2020 not 2015. PAF says that the next purchase after current AC purchases will take place after 15 years. So if JSF are approaved its going to be on Pakistani soil by 2025 (20 years from now).

On the other hand there is a risk & sanction free Chinese J-XX. Which if measures upto JSF-35 or comes closer would be most prefered.

3rdly If PAF goes for Rafale today & in future France keeps rolling out advanced (+cheap) multirole version than PAF may only be building its fleet on it.

PAF can start evaluating EF-2000 & JSF now & ask for them to be delievered earlier (that is they dnt go for Rafale or J-XX in future & induct future AC now) but it is my personal view that both AC may not see Pakistan land & even if they get a chance it would be 2020-2025.
 

kashifshahzad

Banned Member
SABRE said:
First AD if Pakistan goes for JSF it would be in 2020 not 2015. PAF says that the next purchase after current AC purchases will take place after 15 years. So if JSF are approaved its going to be on Pakistani soil by 2025 (20 years from now).

On the other hand there is a risk & sanction free Chinese J-XX. Which if measures upto JSF-35 or comes closer would be most prefered.

3rdly If PAF goes for Rafale today & in future France keeps rolling out advanced (+cheap) multirole version than PAF may only be building its fleet on it.

PAF can start evaluating EF-2000 & JSF now & ask for them to be delievered earlier (that is they dnt go for Rafale or J-XX in future & induct future AC now) but it is my personal view that both AC may not see Pakistan land & even if they get a chance it would be 2020-2025.
Tell me the justification that why you included the JSF in this poll in 2015 no body know what will be the political and economical position of Pakistan at that time we will be able to build our own planes see JF-17 thunder is just a begining might be the joint venture of stealth planes between the Pak nad China start's before 2010 so SRI please include the planes which we can buy before 2010 dont think that what will we do after when there will be a time to retire F-16's lol we are getting them

I sujjest that buy 40-80~ F-16's make JF-17's and no purchases till 2010 done
 
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