F-16's done, What should PAF's next acquisition be?

[corsair7772]

The rafale seems a good enough choice. But i wouldnt bet my money on freedom from political strings. Dont forget 1970 when our Mirage 5s along with a few Mirage threes were embargoed right before the war and delivered after it. I dont think i need to tell how much better off the PAF wouldve been with about 60 Mirage3/5 rather than just 28 Mirage 3s.

Although france is still very much independent, judging from the debate on iraq and the arms ban on china, i wouldnt bet our entire armed forces on it.

The J-13 ( a knock of Su-30) might become available a few years before 2015. If nor the J-11, this could be a good enough option though ive heard from the indians that is engine is one sick grandma (chippings).

And dont forget, the PAF is still evaluating the J-1o. It might not be too bad at all.

 

[kashifshahzad]

i think rafale and j-xx will be a good idea.

Replace the Rafales with F-16's till 2010 then we can go for J-XX or any other replacement like JH-7 and others.......

 

[kashifshahzad]

The rafale seems a good enough choice. But i wouldnt bet my money on freedom from political strings. Dont forget 1970 when our Mirage 5s along with a few Mirage threes were embargoed right before the war and delivered after it. I dont think i need to tell how much better off the PAF wouldve been with about 60 Mirage3/5 rather than just 28 Mirage 3s.

Although france is still very much independent, judging from the debate on iraq and the arms ban on china, i wouldnt bet our entire armed forces on it.

The J-13 ( a knock of Su-30) might become available a few years before 2015. If nor the J-11, this could be a good enough option though ive heard from the indians that is engine is one sick grandma (chippings).

And dont forget, the PAF is still evaluating the J-1o. It might not be too bad at all.

So cruiser there are manychoices for Pakistan in the years between 2010-2015 so i think Pakistan get as many as F-16's as possible and built JF-17 side by side the no# of planes will increase because i think Pakistan is not gonna retire those mirages ,F-7,F-7PG's,A-5's before 2010 this is my guess only

When Indian Mig 21's can survive then our planes are not that much old pitty on Mig 21's pilots

 

[rafale_2k5]

I seriously doubt all ur claims, u people seem to be forgetting that comparing JSF with J-XX is a fallacy, buliding stealth platforms no joke blokes!!!!! a country like USA is taking considerable time in turning out the JSF, plus it had its precursor in the shape of F-22 and JSF is basically a technological spin off!!!! whereas China is yet to turn out a world class fighter n u guys r contemplating J-XX a paper drawing available on websites, China is yet to deveelop/ field the J-10 production line n people all oer are droolin oer J-XX , get a lease on life folks building/ making stealth technologies is no joke had this been that easier bot Rafale/ Typhoon wouldve been stealth platforms, made by countries which have better technological background vis-a-vis China, even Russia may be having the knowledge but yet to field a prototype, mere artist impressions are not enough thats why theyre lookin towards India n China to finance the 5th gen platform!!!! personally speakin im not against China but rather the oer hyped capability as some people protray, first let J-10 to be fielded/ inducted than pin ur hopes n promises.......

 

[rafale_2k5]

Plus one more thing even if J-XX sees the light of the day it may very well be the Chinese Raptor n China may not offer it 4 export even to countries like Pakistan which apparently r close, n considerin Paks new relationship with USA China may like to walk the fine line more cautiously!!!!!!

 

[adsH]

Plus one more thing even if J-XX sees the light of the day it may very well be the Chinese Raptor n China may not offer it 4 export even to countries like Pakistan which apparently r close, n considerin Paks new relationship with USA China may like to walk the fine line more cautiously!!!!!!

J-XX is a US Naval Designation for an AC they've seem to have found. the Fictional drawings available on-Line are Fiction at best. the Chinese Infrastructure holds the capacity to rapidly develop whatever they set there minds too. that is the reason why the US finds its self at odds with this Aspiring super power, which has one of the largest economies 1 billion People to support it and a large sized Armed forces. It has the man power and the technical ability to develop and Build Aircrafts. you've got to hand them that !! No matter how much you seem to downgrade them they still are a substantial Country.

Pakistan here would seem to be one of the closet Ally of China, i really don't see why J-xx (if it exists) would not be available to them, since the Avionics suite on the J-10 was jointly developed by the two. The JF-17 the back bone of the two Air-forces were jointly developed. i really don't see why they wouldn't sell them the J-xx.

 

[adsH]

get a lease on life folks building/ making stealth technologies is no joke had this been that easier bot Rafale/ Typhoon wouldve been stealth platforms, made by countries which have better technological background vis-a-vis China, even Russia may be having the knowledge but yet to field a prototype, mere artist impressions are not enough thats why theyre lookin towards India n China to finance the 5th gen platform!!!! personally speakin im not against China but rather the oer hyped capability as some people protray, first let J-10 to be fielded/ inducted than pin ur hopes n promises.......

OK this is where i start, Right!! The Typhoon was designed for a purpose it has a Life time of a role, and Stealth is the part which would of compromised its ability in A2A. the JSF plays the Stealth roles in our forces. When the Ac was designed that was decades ago the technology at that time (availble to us) dictated the Typhoon approach. its designs were frozen and dev process started if we had not done that then we would of Had an expensive program today instead of a Jet. Our next gen Approach is to Use the Typhoon and our 2nd 3rd gen UAV in our FOAS system.

 

[srirangan]

The JF-17 the back bone of the two Air-forces were jointly developed. i really don't see why they wouldn't sell them the J-xx.

How is it the backbone of either air force?

 

[SABRE]

Here is an interesting information I just got. The defence sctry told on GEO that Pakistan has an agreement with US which says that if Pakistan gets any thing from US that is second hand it will come free, including the F-16s. The only thing Pakistan will have to pay is for the upgrading of what ever they choose for free.

There you go. This reduces the purchase burden. Pakistan can go for fewer new F-16s & surplus of used USAF F-16s of Block 15, 32+ A/B/C/D. Which gives chance to Rafale.

The 24 new F-16s PAF will purchase now will come from US grant of $3Billion but the rest of the new F-16s will be purchased from Pakistan's own money but this money will not be part of Defence budget but rather extra amount. So PAF gets an exta amount.
This is the same extra amount I mentioned Senet was considering, they approaved it but did not publish the report, hence it never reached the news papers or ppl (it was to be kept hush hush). No its out by defence sctry him self. The amount is still a secret.

Enjoy ! We'll probably have more F-16s than JF-17s & F-7s. Probably one day we will be largest F-16 fleet, offcourse their value will be similar to that of F-7s & Mirage-3s of now days.

 

[adsH]

How is it the backbone of either air force?

once upon atime, not too far in the future.

PAF procures 150-200 units

PLAAF procures and estimate 200+ to 500 units.

this 3rd gen AC seems to me, would form the backbone of the two Forces, might i remind the readers JF-17 is in testing and its a reality rather then fiction.
Sri are you Being sarcastic here, with all this Write up clutter i really can't gage attitudes!!

 

[srirangan]

Nah. Just wanted to point out that JF-17 really isn't the backbone of either force as yet, and I really doubt PLAAF is going to procure it in any large quantities. I always though for them the FC-1 was a export oriented fighter.

 

[kashifshahzad]

Nah. Just wanted to point out that JF-17 really isn't the backbone of either force as yet, and I really doubt PLAAF is going to procure it in any large quantities. I always though for them the FC-1 was a export oriented fighter.

They will replace old planes like A-5 adn F-7's they are not for the replacement of F-16's

 

[rafale_2k5]

Plus nobody realizes the impact of sanctions oher than PAF itself, JF-17 may not be as advanced wen full inducted but it provides a stepping stone plus a test bed 4 future upgrdations, F-16s new/ old shall not be coming with integration source codes, so there customization woud also be dependent on US whereas JF-17 gives PAF to test its own / foreign technologies n as a by product PAF has a fledgling fighter aircraft industry which shall improve through the passage of time!!!!!

 

[lakhani]

I think Pakistan should invest in another project like Jf-17, whether ,they do it alone, or another joint production with China(or another freindly country),this will save their money in purchase of expensive fighters(imports) and will also support the economy , if they are exported.

 

[kashifshahzad]

I think Pakistan should invest in another project like Jf-17, whether ,they do it alone, or another joint production with China(or another freindly country),this will save their money in purchase of expensive fighters(imports) and will also support the economy , if they are exported.

Lakhani I totally agree with you i am think that why didnt Pakistan didnt do a joint venture in JH-17 an J10 and the other planes i think the joint venture in the next generation AC J-XX will fit.Pakistan can also buy the JH-7 bombers and attackers for China only see the swedish they make and fly their own AC's they expot too pretty nice thing

 

[Air Marshal]

Jf-17 Thunder is PAF's next acquisition be...

JOINT FIGHTER-17 “THUNDERâ€

ROLE: Single Seat Multi-role Day/Night Fighter
BUILDER: PAC, Pakistan & CAC, China
VARIANTS: Not yet built
OPERATORS: Pakistan, China.

The JF-17 “THUNDER†is an all-weather, multipurpose light fighter aircraft. The aircraft is equipped with advanced avionics and armed with medium-range missiles. It is capable of carrying out both air-to-air and air-to-ground missions.

The JF-17 is a light weight, all weather, multi-role aircraft having a capability to fly at a speed of Mach 1.6 and a high thrust to weight ratio. The aircraft has the ability to engage targets at all speeds and altitudes within the conventional flying envelope. In the surface attack and interdiction role, the aircraft can strike at long distances. The combat jet has been installed with an advanced flight control system, which is a mix of conventional and fly-by-wire controls, making it highly agile and manoeuvrable.

The Technical Data About JF-17 THUNDER Is Given Below:-

ORIGIN: PAC, PAKISTAN & CAIC, CHINA

TYPE: FIGHTER, INTERCEPTOR, ATTACKER

CREW: 1

WINGSPAN: 9.00 meters

HEIGHT: 5.10 meters

Max. Weapon Load: 3,600 kg

MAXIMUM SPEED: MACH 1.6

COMBAT RANGE: 2,220 km

COMBAT RADIUS: 1,200 km

ARMAMENT: 23 MM GSH-23-2 TWIN-BARREL CANNON, PL-7, PL-10, ASMS,

BOMBS, EXTRA FUEL TANKS

 

[Air Marshal]

Jf-17 Thunder is PAF's next acquisition be... :coffee

FC-1 "Chao Qi" / JF-17 Thunder

The FC-1 "Chao Qi" is an all-weather, multipurpose light fighter aircraft. The aircraft is equipped with advanced avionics and armed with medium-range missiles. It is capable of carrying out both air-to-air and air-to-groud missions.

Super-7 (Chao Qi)

In 1986, China signed a $550 million agreement with Grumman to modernize 55 of its fleet of J-7 fighters under the so-called "Super-7" upgrade, but this agreement was canceled in early 1990, in the wake of the cooling of political relations with the West, as well as in response to a 40% increase in the cost of the project.

The "SUPER-7" was the first fighter jet completely designed and manufactured by China. Super-7 (Chao Qi) fighter is China's new generation fighter and the first of its kind of the nation's own intellectual property rights. The third-generation fighter plane, which can carry 3.8 tons of missiles, also has improved systems for attacking ground targets. Its advanced radar positioning and operating systems give the plane greater flexibility and better close-range manoeuvrability.

Development of the "Super 7" upgrade was slowed with the end of American technical assistance following the Tienanmen repression of 1989. Pakistan and China foreclosed the option of producing F-Super 7 Aircraft due to non-availability of Engines. It had been planned around MiG 27 Engine which the Russians refused to supply.

FC-1 (Fighter China 1)

As a substitute for the Super-7, China is developing the FC-1 (Fighter China 1) lightweight multipurpose fighter based on the design for the MiG-33, which was rejected by the Soviet Air Force. The FC-1 is being developed with a total investment in excess of $500 million, including support from the China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC), mainly for export to replace the 120 F-7M/P fighters currently in service in the Pakistani Air Force, though it is possible that the Chinese Air Force will use this aircraft as well. The deal to manufacture 150 FC-1 (Fighter China) jets was struck when General Musharraf visited China just before the Kargil war in 1998.

Chengdu Aircraft Industry Company [CAIC], based in Sichuan Province, is China's second-largest fighter production base, and the enterprise is cooperating with Pakistan's Aviation Integrated Company and Russia's Mikoyan Aero-Science Production Group [MASPG] in the development of the FC-1. Israel and several European countries are being considered as suppliers for the plane's avionics. The first flight was planned for 1997 with delivery to the Pakistani Air Force scheduled for 1999.

Initially it was anticipated that the FC-1 would be a high- performance, low-cost fighter plane to supplement the F-10 air superiority fighters developed for the Chinese Air Force. These planes will be fitted with a single Klimov Design Bureau RD-93 engines. They are a more powerful version of RD-33 engines, two of which are fitted in MIG-29.

It is widely reported that the FC-1 is a continuation of the "MiG-33 [R33]" program developed in the 1980s. The Russian company Mikoyan OKB Design Bureau, which designs all MIG series of aircraft, sold the design of MIG-33 to the China and Pakistan. This report is the source of considerable confusion, and indeed some rather fanciful speculation. The so-called MiG-33 design used in conjunction with the FC-1 program was apparently a the poorly attested "Product 33" lightweight single-engine project of the mid-1980s. A decade later, the MiG-33 nomenclature was briefly associated with the much larger twin-engine Mig-29M. This confused history has led to observations that the "FC-1 features air inlets on the lateral sides of the fuselage rather than the ventral inlets of the MiG-33. ... the most apparent modifications to the MiG-33 design is the repositioning of the ventral fins from the engine compartment..." These supposed modifications to the mid-90s MiG-33 design actually reflect the fact that the FC-1 is an entirely difference airplane with no design relationship to the MiG-33 [MiG-29M].

These improvement in performance have affected the program's costs, and if the final production order if fewer than 300 aircraft the unit price will rise from the original $10 million to $15 million.

The China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) is trying to persuade the Chinese Air Force to use the FC-1 so as to increase the production run and reduce the unit cost. But the Chinese military has resisted, being of the view that equiping the Air Force with two types of fighter planes with similar performance within the same time period would both consume limited financial resources and complicate logistical support for dissimilar aircraft.

The FC-1 was to make it's first flight in 1996, but the project was delayed when Pakistan sought to upgrade the performance characteristics of the FC-1 to respond to India's acquisition of Su-30MKIs. After several years of stagnation, the Pakistani Prime Minister's February 1998 trip to China resulted in an agreement to continue development of the fighter. Currently Pakistan is interested in acquiring at least 150 fighters, with the Chinese contemplating acquiring over 200.

The JF-17 Thunder project has been completed in a record period of four years. China National Aviation Corp officially signed the development contract for the FC-1 airplane in 1999. The project initially suffered a setback due to imposition of sanctions in 1999, which hindered acquisition of avionics and weaponry for the aircraft. The avionics had to be delinked from airframe development in 2001. China National Aviation Corp completes the detailed preliminary design in 2001 and in 2002 the company completed the detailed design structure and the system charts.

Formal production work began September 16, 2002, on the FC-1 aircraft in Chengdu, capital of southwest China's Sichuan Province.

The FC-1 made its formal debut at China's Fourth International Air Show scheduled November 4 to 7, 2002, in Zhuhai, the nearest mainland city to Macao. China Aviation Industry Corporation I (AVIC I ) made fresh progress in 2003, with 5 planes having passed evaluation and seven new planes completed their maiden flight. "Xiaolong/FC-1", or fierce dragon, produced by the corporation last year was applauded as one of the "Ten Major National Scientific Events in 2003"

In July 2003 it was reported that the "SUPER-7" fighter jet was ready to take its maiden flight, although a detailed timetable was not released. China's Super-7 Fighter completed its taxiing test on July 03, 2003 at a test ground of Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Corporation (CAC). As one of the eight major ground tests that must be completed before test flight, the taxiing test is aimed at trying the correctness of the design of electricity supply system, as well as signal connections between the electricity supply system and other external systems so as to provide important data to guarantee a successful first fly. Leiqiang, deputy director of the Chengdu Flight Group's trial flight department under the Chinese Air Force, said on Tuesday he will carry out the maiden flight task. On the day of the first flight, China Central Television (CCTV) will dispatch a special report group to broadcast the whole flight live. Leiqiang, also a "SUPER-7" pilot, and Yangwei, the jet's designer, who is also regarded as the father of "SUPER-7," will be featured on the CCTV program "Face to Face."

On 25 August 2003 the "owlet dragon" FC-1 airplane carried on the initial flight. It flews 17 minutes before it returned to the airport.

The serial production of the aircraft will begin by January 2006. The aircraft will replace the Mirage, F-16 and F-7 aircraft with the latest technology and it will meet professional requirements of the Pakistan Air Force.

The JF-17 Thunder, whose performance is matched only by F-16s in the Pakistan Air Force's current inventory, would be replacing the aging fleet of Mirage, F-7s and A-5s. The aircraft is being considered as a match for the Indian Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which is expected to form the backbone of the Indian Air Force in future. There are, however, some features like advanced and futuristic avionics and cost effectiveness that give the JF-17 an edge over the LCA.

The JF-17 is a light weight, all weather, multi-role aircraft having a capability to fly at a speed of Mach 1.6 and a high thrust to weight ratio. The aircraft has the ability to engage targets at all speeds and altitudes within the conventional flying envelope. In the surface attack and interdiction role, the aircraft can strike at long distances. The combat jet has been installed with an advanced flight control system, which is a mix of conventional and fly-by-wire controls, making it highly agile and manoeuvrable.

The aircraft would be capable of carrying short-range, beyond visual range, anti-ship as well as anti-radiation missiles. Additionally, the carriage of high and low drag bombs, laser guided bombs, run away penetration bombs and cluster bombs would be catered for. However, the air chief parried a question regarding the aircraft's ability to carry nukes.

This machines has prominent maneuver cabability, greater range, airborne period and combat radius, fine short distance take off and landing characteristic and stronger weapon carrying capacity. The prominent center low altitude and the high subsonic maneuver operational capacity, has a better interception and to the place attack capability, all-weather, single shot, single-seat. This machine uses nearby the medium aspect ratio the strip wing normal arrangement, entire machine has 7 outside viewpoints, may be hanging many kinds of empty, the open area weapon, and may outside hang 3 auxiliary oil tanks, outside hangs the ability 3,600 kilograms.

This machine has used the advanced air operated contour and the big thrust force, the low consumption turbofan engine, as well as the advanced digital fax flies controls the system, the integrated aviation electron and the armament system, has in the launch to be apart from the ball, to realize the multi- goals beyond line of sight attack ability, has many kinds of advanced precise function and so on navigation, battlefield situation sensation, target detection and recognition, operational attack as well as electronic warfare.

Because has used the contemporary advanced design and the manufacture technology, the owlet dragon/FC-1 airplane had achieved the third generation fighter aircraft synthesis fighting efficiency, can contend with with now the advanced fighter aircraft, simultaneously has the low cost the characteristic, completely adapts the modern warfare request and the military airplane market demand.

The Pak Tribune reported on April 29, 2004 that the first eight of these aircraft would be delivered to the PLAAF in 2006.

J-9

The J-9 designation was apparently initially applied to an unbuilt single engined development of the J-8 aircraft that was cancelled in development around 1979. The F-9 FANTAN designation was at one time applied to the Q-5 FANTAN attack aircraft. Should the FC-1 enter PLAAF service, it might carry the J-9 designation.

Specifications
​

Contractors

Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAIG)
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC)





Projected [1999]

Actual [2004]

LENGTH

13.95 meters

14.9679 m

HEIGHT

5.02 meters

4.77485 m

WING SPAN

9.5 meters

9.4646 m

MAX T-O WEIGHT

12,500 kilograms

12,474 kg

Empty weight



6,411 kg

Normal takeoff weight



9,072 kg

Maximum landing weight



7,802 kg

Fuel weight



2,268 kg

Weapons load



3,629 kg

Thrust/weight ratio



>=0.9

MAX LEVEL SPEED

1031 knots

Mach 1.6

MAX RANGE / Ferry range

864 nautical miles

2,037 km

SERVICE CEILING

16,000 meters

15,240 m

T-O RUN

500 meters

609 m

LANDING RUN

700 meters

823 m

Armament

· 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon

· 6 - PL-7 AAM

· 6 - PL-10 AAMs

· ASMs, bombs



​

 

[srirangan]

Dude thanks for the info. About your sig, there's a rule here that your sig cannot have external links!

 

[kashifshahzad]

Yeah Air Marshel provied a link for the upper post where it is written

ARMAMENT: 23 MM GSH-23-2 TWIN-BARREL CANNON, PL-7, PL-10, ASMS,

BOMBS, EXTRA FUEL TANKS

i havent seen any where that JF-17 thunder have a multi barrel canon

 

[rafale_2k5]

It seems that the F-16 deal is on the verge of final stages n PAF is ultimately goin 4 the Block-52s unlike what some people were contemplating 4 the blk60s,hers the link n report....the repotr seems to be a pretty lousy one as is evident from his reort by referring to P-3C as PC-3 n refrs to TOW missile as Toe !!!!!!

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/may2005-daily/08-05-2005/metro/i17.htm

Pak-US talks on F-16s sale conclude

Muhammad Saleh Zaafir
​

ISLAMABAD: A high-level defence team from the United States comprising experts from the Pentagon and Lockheed Martin Corporation, builders of the most modern multi-role F-16 fighter aircraft, concluded its discussions with the authorities concerned here to facilitate a deal for the supply of these planes to Pakistan. The team has now returned to the US.

This was disclosed by Pakistan’s Ambassador to the United States General (retd) Jehangir Karamat while exclusively talking to The News here Saturday.

The US is expected to sign a deal regarding timing of the delivery and per-plane cost immediately after the receipt of approval from Congress where the issue is being discussed. The State Department has already put up a proposal to the Congress for approval.

Sources revealed that the US is prepared to provide 24 new Block-52 F-16 CD aircraft, the 4th generation of F-16s to Pakistan, and current Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Block 15 F-16s the Mid-life update (MLV) which would enhance the capability of the existing fleet to the level of 3rd generation planes. The process for the same would be commencing early next year.

Pakistan intimated the US team that it wished to enhance the existing fleet of F-16s to 111 by 2015 and Islamabad is contemplating to buy 71 more 4th generation aircraft.

To a question, the ambassador declined to give further details of the deliberations between the two teams on the F-16s issue.

To another query, he said India has neither responded to the US offer of F-18 sale nor made any request to the US in this regard.

Jehangir Karamat said US President George W Bush would visit the region by the end of current year. He will also come to Pakistan but officially no word has yet been given by Washington about his visit even to India.

The US approach to Pakistan-India talks is very positive and Washington is keen to see progress in the process and facilitating a move forward in dialogue, he said.

General Jehangir Karamat said the United States is in the process of supplying Pakistan with the most sophisticated weapons including spares about which both the countries had previous agreements besides PC-3 Orion planes for the navy, Toe missiles for PAF, choppers and C-130 Hercules wide body planes.

To another question, the ambassador said the situation regarding immigrants having legal documents has somewhat improved but the illegal immigrants who have either no documents or dubious documents are facing problem. Pakistani immigrants

overstaying in the US are also facing trouble but the embassy is putting up its best efforts to reduce their hardships.

He said the attitude of host government has also improved and visitors from Pakistan are now normally treated at the entry points.

The envoy said joint military exercises of the US with India would have no adverse impact on Pakistan’s defence.

During his stay in the Federal Capital, Karamat held separate meetings with President General Pervez Musharraf and Prime minister Shaukat Aziz. He will return to the US tomorrow.