F-16's done, What should PAF's next acquisition be?

[kashifshahzad]

We might be in position in 2010 to buy high tech planes and equipment because of the growth in the economy and the FDI private sector is also making efforts I dont know exectly the GDP growth but its around 6% . Then we can buy the F-15's or the other advance planes may be J-10's or the J-XX

 

[gf0012-aust]

i'm aware of the drawbacks of the Doppler's scanning Rate, and the AESA Directed Energy Beams abilities to track multiple targets. Nothing a Good AEW&C integrated with a Good TDL can't provide. AESA vs TDL i would Go for TDL since cash is scarce in PAF.

except the scan rate alone to jump from one target to another goes from one second to milliseconds - in a "hot" modern combat environment that's a huge difference.

plus the concurrency rate is significantly if not grossly different.

 

[kashifshahzad]

except the scan rate alone to jump from one target to another goes from one second to milliseconds - in a "hot" modern combat environment that's a huge difference.

plus the concurrency rate is significantly if not grossly different.

GF-0012-aust I have played F-16 multirole Fighter in this game the target can be changed in a second or two I think .So if you are targeting a batch of planes then the targets can be changed in 5-10 seconds and there goes the AAM's and all done.

Does this AESA have longer range that can trace AC's which are far away e.g., like hide and seek if your rader's range is 50 km then the other enemies have 30 km then you can easily fire a long range BVR missile and destroy them in a few minutes plz correct me if i am wrong I think the F-15 is air superiority fighter so it should have advance radar system

 

[adsH]

except the scan rate alone to jump from one target to another goes from one second to milliseconds - in a "hot" modern combat environment that's a huge difference.

plus the concurrency rate is significantly if not grossly different.

Yeah GF i agree with you the Lightup of the section is not fast enough during a combat situation. but it wouldn't really matter even if you could look and track through larger bore-sight (since your bound to loose the target). What i'm stressing is fighters need a good AEW&C capability. fighters don't tend to use there main sensors when they are attacking incoming hostile Fighter Our forces use the JTIDS to stay stealthy and they get real time information from the the E3D and the same can be done for Eyrie's and Grippens. But i do agree with you the AESA has advantages. the Doppler fitted AC usually engage in groups so each one covers a certian area of the space you can increases refresh rate by focussing the light up in-those sections. the rest can be provided by a good AEW&C.

 

[gf0012-aust]

GF-0012-aust I have played F-16 multirole Fighter in this game the target can be changed in a second or two I think .So if you are targeting a batch of planes then the targets can be changed in 5-10 seconds and there goes the AAM's and all done.

You're playing a game - it's nothing like a simulation of real TacData flow and realtime threats

Does this AESA have longer range that can trace AC's which are far away e.g., like hide and seek if your rader's range is 50 km then the other enemies have 30 km then you can easily fire a long range BVR missile and destroy them in a few minutes plz correct me if i am wrong I think the F-15 is air superiority fighter so it should have advance radar system

In short - yes, thats one of its capabilities. The USAF already has AESA APG-79 equiped F15's at Elmendorf in Alaska. It will also be operational on F/A-18E and twin seater F/A-18F's in Sept 2006. It has 3 x the aerial target detection range, 5 x the reliability at approx 40% of the operating and support costs of APG-73. They can take a 6% TR failure rate without effecting capability. previously, any damage to a part of the ESA would result in a "mobility kill" for the set.

The radar system used by the Rafale is not new, the USAF was using the same PESA technology in the B1 and the E-8 JSTARS.

 

[gf0012-aust]

But i do agree with you the AESA has advantages. the Doppler fitted AC usually engage in groups so each one covers a certian area of the space you can increases refresh rate by focussing the light up in-those sections. the rest can be provided by a good AEW&C.

thats the issue though, modern AESA means that one platform can concurrently scan multiple areas of space without degradation. in a real sense, it means that an AESA equiped plane can achieve the same level of TAC interrogation and manipulation as a flight (4 to 8 aircraft) of conventional MSA equiped aircraft.

AESA aircraft in effect can use each other as portable AWACs.

 

[kashifshahzad]

If this kind of Radar system (AESA) is fitted into a multirole fighter rather fitting it into a air superiority fighter I think a country with low economy prefer that I think if some country orders for newer versions of multirole fighters take an example of UAE they are going to the new AESA radar system rahter then having a lot of planes doing different works . One plane carrying Sidewinders for close A2A combat BVR AAM's for BVR targetting some bombs like GBU etc for ground target destruction and also Harpoon for anti ship missions AESA will help much more then the older versions of radars. Pakistan will prefer this.

 

[gf0012-aust]

If this kind of Radar system (AESA) is fitted into a multirole fighter rather fitting it into a air superiority fighter I think a country with low economy prefer that I think if some country orders for newer versions of multirole fighters take an example of UAE they are going to the new AESA radar system rahter then having a lot of planes doing different works . One plane carrying Sidewinders for close A2A combat BVR AAM's for BVR targetting some bombs like GBU etc for ground target destruction and also Harpoon for anti ship missions AESA will help much more then the older versions of radars. Pakistan will prefer this.

you don't need separate aircraft types to do these missions though. modern aircraft can change their role in flight. they can carry mixed loadouts - and the larger they are, the more varied the load out.

the days of having dedicated interceptors, dedicated ground attack, dedicated "Xint" suppression are almost gone.

 

[adsH]

AESA aircraft in effect can use each other as portable AWACs.

i think Your referring to the TDL systems where you can receive fuzed information from other-sensors in the Air and display it in a fuzed display system. i would be cautious when using platforms in this mix, there were problems with the amount of information being presented when JTIDS was first used. the idea of communication between nodes without regulation is not something i would opt for operators. but i know systems work in this manner. imagine you have 15 Airborne assets each with (AESA Radar or any type of radar or sensor) (redundant amount of sensors) each will transmit there acquired information to every node in the sector multiply that with 15 units and if each unit is tracking lets say 30 targets multiply the (15*30= 450 targets)
so thats 450 targets for each of the 15 AC's.
all of them being transmitted around. there is too much information flying around for an AC to be able to display the information process and prioritize in a short time in real time. And display it on 6 by 6 screen. you do get what i'm trying to say. i know there are way to regulate priorities time slice each sector but that is a completely different game. I am not trying to contradict you but its not becasue of the AESA radar the AC seems to be able to mimic a mini awac its the TDL and the Support system that surround the AESA radar.

 

[gf0012-aust]

the idea of communication between nodes without regulation is not something i would opt for operators. but i know systems work in this manner. imagine you have 15 Airborne assets each with (AESA Radar or any type of radar or sensor) (redundant amount of sensors) each will transmit there acquired information to every node in the sector multiply that with 15 units and if each unit is tracking lets say 30 targets multiply the (15*30= 450 targets)
so thats 450 targets for each of the 15 AC's.
all of them being transmitted around. there is too much information flying around for an AC to be able to display the information process and prioritize in a short time in real time. And display it on 6 by 6 screen. you do get what i'm trying to say. i know there are way to regulate priorities time slice each sector but that is a completely different game. I am not trying to contradict you but its not becasue of the AESA radar the AC seems to be able to mimic a mini awac its the TDL and the Support system that surround the AESA radar.

1) The operator systems are prioritising the threat until over-ridden. It's concurrent processing
2) As above, the system is autonomously doing the work of what would be in old terms the RIO - it denotes which are the prioritised threats for that platform
3) Current capability is to be able to talk with "each other"
4) This is all happening without AWACs involvement. AWACs capability is an adjunct to the system. In the case of the USN, then it would be ForceNET scenario. TDL hasn't even been bought into the response yet.
5) eg Gripen has the capability to hand off to the other aircraft in the flight in a similar fashion to what has been discussed here. Plane A can see whats occurring on Plane B, C, D etc... 3-4 Platforms have this capability.
6) The Russians using prev technology used to do the same with their Backfires. The same capability now using AESA is whats being discussed.

Once you add in AWACs, "Link16 conversations" etc, you just magnify the capability and flexibility.

 

[sunjerem]

Guyz, c'mon, get back to the topic.

And, no, the F-16s are not "done".

No deal has been signed.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Guyz, c'mon, get back to the topic.

It is on topic, or don't you understand that you have to discuss capability, form and function on likely threat matrices before you even look at the new shiny plane in the shop window?

Discussing purchases without considering capability is how some countries end up with crap standing on the tarmac.

 

[adsH]

1) The operator systems are prioritising the threat until over-ridden. It's concurrent processing

Once you add in AWACs, "Link16 conversations" etc, you just magnify the capability and flexibility.

Your absolutely rite i totally agree with you !! the AWAC fills in the Gaps. thanks for all the wright up!!!

Coming back to the Original Topic's intent i would prefer PAF went for the Grippens, I'm no Swede i would rather have PAF sign up for Eurofighters but, that 's unlikely. i like the grippens and the whole integrated package, YOu mentioned the Grippens colluding and merging there sensor data during flight, i know there are competitors doing this but i just like Swedish Data-links. regardless of there effectiveness.


I like the part where four grippens share information where one activates its Radar sensor all other remain on passive sensors and all of them share the information from the Radar sweeping Gripp. you can do allot when you allow cooperation during flight.

GF, i wish i had more time to discuss JTIDS systems and time slicing. but ive got my Exams and i'm relocating to a different city for a job. have very busy i will add to this in a week.

this is what i think you were trying to bring forward, Node to node communication in JTIDS.

 

[highsea]

...The USAF already has AESA APG-79 equiped F15's at Elmendorf in Alaska. It will also be operational on F/A-18E and twin seater F/A-18F's in Sept 2006.

Minor correction, the F-15C AESA is AN/APG-63(v2). The AN/APG-79 is for the F-18E/F. The first F/A-18 equipped with the APG-79 was rolled out last month at Boeing St. Louis. It will be used in the flight test program prior to entering OPEVAL next year.

The AESA designations for the other fighter AC are:
F-35: AN/APG-81
F-16: AN/APG-80
F-22: AN/APG-77

I like the part where four grippens share information where one activates its Radar sensor all other remain on passive sensors and all of them share the information from the Radar sweeping Gripp. you can do allot when you allow cooperation during flight.

All of the US Link-16 equipped AC have this capability, but it's not limited to just the fighters in a group,i.e, they can tx/rx voice and data from AWACS, ground support, any JTIDS or MIDS terminal.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Minor correction, the F-15C AESA is AN/APG-63(v2). The AN/APG-79 is for the F-18E/F. The first F/A-18 equipped with the APG-79 was rolled out last month at Boeing St. Louis. It will be used in the flight test program prior to entering OPEVAL next year.

The AESA designations for the other fighter AC are:
F-35: AN/APG-81
F-16: AN/APG-80
F-22: AN/APG-77

Highsea, the latest edition of C4ISR is stating that both F-22 and JSF will be sharing APG-81. It's actually done an article specifically on AESA/PESA/XESA.

Just as a minor add on, as a Link16 example, the Australian Abrams Tanks will also be Link 16'd to other Oz assets.

 

[highsea]

Highsea, the latest edition of C4ISR is stating that both F-22 and JSF will be sharing APG-81. It's actually done an article specifically on AESA/PESA/XESA.

Yeah, I knew they are testing a new version based on the APG-81, but I don't think they are changing the designation, just calling it a "4th Generation APG-77" (I could be wrong, I haven't read the article). The APG-77 uses more elements in the main antenna than the APG-81 (1500 vs. 1200, IIRC). They have done away with the side arrays in this version though (at least for now, cost cutting ), and all the back end components, T/R modules, etc. are the same as the APG-81, so they are definitely "close cousins". I'm sure NG would like to use common T/R modules in all the fighter AC radars, it saves a lot of money in manufacturing. I imaging the APG-79 uses the same modules. But you're right, for all practical purposes they are the same, just different sized antennas.

 

[adsH]

All of the US Link-16 equipped AC have this capability, but it's not limited to just the fighters in a group,i.e, they can tx/rx voice and data from AWACS, ground support, any JTIDS or MIDS terminal.

That is specifically why i said i know its available in the JTIDS with the competitors, You think i wouldn't know this RAF uses JTIDS with the E3D and the Tornado F.3

 

[BilalK]

France to extend help to Pakistan in N-tech
​

Envoy says two countries discussing sale of Mirage-2000

By Muhammad Saleh Zaafir
​

ISLAMABAD: France is engaged in discussions with Pakistan about cooperation in nuclear technology after a lapse of about 30 years. As the confidence increases, Paris will be prepared to provide assistance to Islamabad to meet its power needs.

The two countries re-established contacts in a multilateral interaction held in Paris recently where representatives of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) were also present. French Ambassador to Pakistan Pierre Charasse disclosed this to The News in an exclusive interview covering wide range of issues here.

He said France is prepared to help Pakistan in developing non-conventional means of production of power including its generation through nuclear and hydel sources. Without going into details of the deal that was called off between Pakistan and France under US pressure in the past, the French ambassador said Pakistan’s name must be cleared first with reference to nuclear proliferation and as the country’s image improves private sector in France will be prepared to cooperate with Pakistan to fulfil its increasing needs of power generation. France appreciates Pakistan’s genuine needs of having more and more power in wake of boosting economic activities. France has already helped Pakistan in developing a hydel power generation unit in Kashmir with active assistance of another country, the ambassador said.

Replying to another question, he said France is cooperating with Pakistan in space technology besides a number of other fields by providing it with advanced technology. A group of 25 French companies on a visit to Pakistan recently returned with a positive impression. A big unit of car manufacturing is being built in Pakistan where the famous Renault car will be manufactured by availing Nissan company’s base. Renault has already purchased Nissan.

Renault will be manufacturing fuel-efficient and useful cars for Pakistani market that would be comparatively cheaper, he said. Pierre Charasse said Franch-Pakistan cooperation in the field of defence is progressing satisfactorily. France is engaged in discussions with Pakistan on sale of its state-of-the-art fighter multi-role high-tech aircraft Mirage-2000.

The ambassador said French ultra-modern aircraft, Rafale, is not being discussed for sale to Pakistan although this plane has already been sold to some of the Middle Eastern countries. Responding another question, the envoy said a third submarine for Pakistan Navy would be completed under transfer of technology agreement by the end of next year. The submarine has been fully built in Pakistan by local engineers under the supervision of French experts.

Pierre Charasse was satisfied with the exiting ties between the two countries in various fields and termed them stable. He said the attack on French technicians in 2002 caused a deep dive in relations but since last year these have not only normalised but also improved a lot.

"Pakistan must strive to improve its image abroad. If you watch international media, the information pouring out from different parts of Pakistan, especially Karachi, is often regarding terrorism, violation and killings. It has been somewhat controlled now but still need to be fully rectified," the envoy said.

When asked, the ambassador said French President Jacques Chirac has been invited by President Pervez Musharraf to visit Pakistan. The visit is yet to be scheduled. However, the French foreign minister would be visiting Pakistan in the later half of the year.

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/may2005-daily/14-05-2005/main/main8.htm

 

[gf0012-aust]

The ambassador said French ultra-modern aircraft, Rafale, is not being discussed for sale to Pakistan although this plane has already been sold to some of the Middle Eastern countries.

Incorrect. Rafale has not had any export orders. the Saudis have only indicated that they might - there are no firm orders. The Singapore decision involving the F-15 and Rafale is still to be determined (and Singapore is not the middle east).

 

[srirangan]

The ambassador said French ultra-modern aircraft, Rafale, is not being discussed for sale to Pakistan although this plane has already been sold to some of the Middle Eastern countries.

Should we strike it off our list here then? Or maybe there still is a possibility in the future? SABRE?