Arms race: Greece & Turkey

[s3kiz]

Just a food for thought, I highly see possible for Turkiye, with the experience she is gaining on the various air platforms like the F16s, F35s, A400s, T129s and the related aeronatical/electronic/weapons systems that go with them to most probably likely develop high capability combat UAVs prior to venturing into an indigenous warplane of any sorts in the near future.

Its not too hard to see UAVs in the next coming decades been used in combat scenarios against land, sea and air targets, even perhaps more effectively than conventional aircrafts operated by “on-board” pilots.

Current Turkish UAV products in service and under development are:

-X1
-Turna
-Keklik
-Gozcu
-Pelikan
-Baykus
-Marti
-Guventurk
-Malazgirt VTOL
-Bayraktar
-Efe
-Ari
-TIHA

TIHA been the biggest both in size and capability, has the following specs:

Wingspan: 17.3mt.
Service Ceiling: 30k ft.
Endurance: 24h.
Cruise Speed: 75+ kts.
LOS Com. Range: 200+ km.
Take-Off Weight: 1500kg.
Payload: 200kg.
Fuel: 250kg.

A modular design, TIHA payload will comprise of camera, radar, thermal imager, laser designator, and SAR and weapons capabilities. Some 20 TIHA is expected to go into service with the Turkish AF by 2010. And will perhaps be the “father” of next generation Turkish combat-UAVs.

Its decendant UAV models may greatly alter the possible conflict scenarios Turkiye might find it self in future, been used in time as front line combat platforms with hundreds in inventory against piloted next generation planes of foes including F16s, F35s, Mirages, Eurofighters, Rafales etc.

I think high-capacity UAVs will be what the F15s were/are and what F22s will be in the soon future. I think Turkiye is on the right road with her defence programmes.

Cheers.

 

[s3kiz]

Heres a graphical example of SAM coverage grid of europe, mid-east, north africa and west asia :
http://www.gearthblog.com/images/images108/sams.jpg


Check out Moscow city, red hot!

Considering that the SAM systems of Turkiye are very old (Nikes and Reeboks ) they are presented as non-existant. Hopefully with the ongoing Turkish Missile Shield Project (with the possibilities of short & medium range systems been Turkish indigenous and long range been a joint production of HQ-9) this picture will change.

Cheers.

 

[JackGr]

Greece SAM coverage circles aren't so real.A Greek def mag once had a VCD showing how it looks like.About the Turkish new SAM I don't expect to see sth great because,judging from the supposed enemies-neighbours of Turkey and their attacking/defensive policies,Turkey doesn't need them so much.

 

[s3kiz]

Yeah they arent likely to be 100% accurate but gives fair visual of whats out there.

JackGr, would appreciate if you could post some Greek graphicals depicting the situation.

We have nothing to show for now for Turkiye, so its like an "old western swivel bar door", open for bussines, come-one-come-all....for now.

Cheers.

 

[JackGr]

I could show you but since the VCD showing the SAM sites is from a magazine I suppose it's copyrighted,so you understand I would be in a difficult position,I could just say it looks like your pic but it covers more of the Aegean .

 

[s3kiz]

Predictable and fair enough.

Cheers.

 

[JackGr]

The last years there have been some upgrades in our central rader centers,the SSSB and ULS (Universal Link System Translator) which connect frigates,SAMs,radars.If we are going for those French/Italian AAW frigates it would be a huge move forward considering that they will be able to connect to the whole air defence system thus making a huge shield both over sea and land.

 

[eliaslar]

I agree the map, maybe, forgets the Hawk missiles and the three red circles are the ranges of PATRIOTS and S-300.
Also answering to the UAV projects, Greece is a member of the NEURON UCAV project since 2005 of Dassault Aviation

according to these links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEUROn

http://www.haicorp.com/html/en/en-index.htm

@JackGr i think the German Frigate is the best for our needs and by the way i have never liked italian and french ships

 

[beleg]

@beleg
Greece bought the BMP-3's, which was also a big program, without all those Requests you mentioned
About the Erieyes, what means officially delivered?

According to the new Greek fighter i don't think that all this publicity over the program on the Greek defence magazines is without reason, so i will not be surprised to see a contract coming soon, in the next months. I cannot tell which will be the winner, but as i know, from Greek defence magazines, on 2004, before the Olympic games, there had been an offer from EADS with Greece having a subconstructor member with 5% on EF-2000, even if we lost our chance then i still think this has more chances for a contract.

Heheh don't tell me you will select the next gen fighter with out a formal procedure.. Its not possible

About Erieyes what i mean is do they have the Serial Number and the Greek flag/insignias painted on their tails ? If not they are officially not accepted yet and are not operational but being tested I had heard that there are some problems and official deliveries of the planes might delay into 2009.. But you guys are better sources so please enlighten us

@Jack
Yeah i was quite sure some lacked CIWS but seems the numbers were wrong

@Atilla
Realism is good. We will get the F-35 as is like all other partners. The RAM paint as i said earlier is being developed for the Navys MiLGEM project and sea conditions. There are lots of R&D projects going on but it doesn't mean all of them will be fruitful. Unfortunately the Turkish Press is very unreliable in defense topics and if you follow the projects from newspapers you will be seriously disappointed. I have lived long enough to have that feelings so trust me on this one

The localized avionics in F-35 might be more related with communications suite and indigenous weapon interfaces rather than RAM paint or full mission suite.

 

[JackGr]

In the HAF site it says that 4 ΕΜΒ-145Η already belong to 380 squadron(we already have them),about the radar I'm reading that some problems are being solved.I believe it is going to be upgraded very soon maybe inside 2008 thus making it possible for the planes to "fly".About the frigates... the german Sachsen class is armed with RIM-162 ESSM and the French with MBDA Aster,Aster 15 looks like the evolved Sparrow,but Aster 30 has a HUGE difference plus the french version can take Scalp naval and we all know what possibilities tha option gives.

 

[beleg]

HAF's English site mentions the plane but doesn't have a link or photo of the planes. haven't seen any recent pictures of this plane. I'd be glad if you guys can post some recent pics

 

[jedigman]

HAF's English site mentions the plane but doesn't have a link or photo of the planes. haven't seen any recent pictures of this plane. I'd be glad if you guys can post some recent pics

Embraer ERIEYE AEW&C
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l189/KORNET-E/EMB145_03.jpg
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l189/KORNET-E/EMB145_05.jpg
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l189/KORNET-E/EMB145_02.jpg
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l189/KORNET-E/EMB145_03.jpg
SAAB-340 H AEW & C ERIEYE (trainer)
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l189/KORNET-E/15-6.jpg

The Boeing 737 AEW & C aircraft will have 360 degree radar coverage compared to the 300 degrees of the ERIEYE (that's 150 each side), the 737 will have 370km range where as the ERIEYE has 350km, the 737 can travel further the the ERIEYE and also can refuel in flight this is where Turkey's Starto tankers come in useful.

ERIEYE is a much cheaper platform.

 

[orko_8]

Note that the aircraft still carry civillian registration codes, hence they are not officially inducted.

 

[eliaslar]

@jedigman
These photos are from 2006 i can't find newer photos, the aircrafts are flying, that's for sure i have seen them lots of time, and they are in Greece all 4 of them.

@JackGR
The Sachsen class doesn't only have ESSM but also has SM-2, which is a missile with larger range. Also it is equiped with Harpoon Block-2 missiles. Also according to the Scalp, which by the way is a great weapon and used by the Mirage 2000 of HAF, Greek navy has ordered the Exocet Block 3 for the Super vita FAC's, a missile with 180km range and which has the capability to hit land targets

http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/FO/scripts/siteFO_contenu.php?lang=EN&noeu_id=108

 

[Yasin20]

@ Beleg Economy does not mean anything you could have private and government funding incl external. Plus Turkey can join with Korea and Japan together and build a very good plane. Ohh yeah just to back my claims Sweden has an economy not as good as Turkeys and they build the awesome Gripen. And Turkey I believe have more aerospace engineers, because of larger population.

yeah well yous did know i did mention about turkiye should join the korean KFX program i think the one that koreans makeing is for A2A fighter jet not just ment for bombing ?

 

[s3kiz]

KFX been an ambitious project by our Korean allies/friends, albeit with high potential to turn out as a good platform is still about a decade behind completion when compared to F35. With a planned maiden flight at earliest in 2014, KFX will probably enter AF inventory after another 5-8 years, that is 2019-2022 if everything goes on plan.

That is a long time for Turkish AF to rely on F16-F4 platforms until a platform like KFX is ready.

On the other hand F35 with a dedicated consortium has perhaps better chances of been completed, even if all the partners including Turkiye were to withdraw the US AF still needs to see the completion of F35 as there are no other feasable alternatives besides that.

F35 is not "just ment for bombing", its a multi-role fighter capable of both AA and AG missions.

I would rather be flying a jet that can detect lock on and shoot an enemy jet outside the enemys detection range rather then piloting a jet with extreme manouverability without such attributes.

The times of dogfighting is over, airsuperiorty now is based on detection and firing without been in the enemys detection range.

Thats what the F35 is for all air,ground and sea targets.

In this respect F35 is not comparable to F15, Eurofighter, Rafale, Mirages or such propositions like the KFX as it is still too vague and probably will at best equal an F35 not surpass it, if and when its completed.

F22 is another story, above par all operational and ongoing programmes.

F35 both in product and the experience gained is the best option for Turkiye, until 2020. Then will come the local modifications, Turkish-foreign co-development into a future platform of the following decades and eventually indigenous aircrafts. Step-by-step.

Cheers.

 

[eliaslar]

@s3kiz
i think the times of dogfighting will never be over, if they were over that would have happened a long time ago. But as we have seen in the recent history of air warfare, i mean the war in Serbia on 1999, at least one time Serbian Mig-29's were able to come at a close distance to USAF F-15's. And if a Serbian Mig-29 with all the problems it had in the electronics, can reach at a distance of 5 miles a USAF F-15, which also had the cover of AWACS, then i cannot believe a much more sophisticated aircraft will be an easy target in the forthcoming years.
Also if the times of dogfighting would be over, then why Greek and Turkish fighters dogfight over Aegean sea every day?
Dogfight is an essential part of air battle. And nothing can do everything with the best results, so you can't have the best bomber, the best dogfighter etc..in one machine. So in multi-role fighters, there is always a ballance or to say better a harmony between them, to have the desirable effect in every role.

 

[balamir]

Also if the times of dogfighting would be over, then why Greek and Turkish fighters dogfight over Aegean sea every day?
Dogfight is an essential part of air battle. And nothing can do everything with the best results, so you can't have the best bomber, the best dogfighter etc..in one machine. So in multi-role fighters, there is always a ballance or to say better a harmony between them, to have the desirable effect in every role.

well, first of all we don't know if they are dog-fighting anymore (there is a difference between interception and dog-fight). Second, if you cannot fire your missile but you want to prevent the other from moving forward, What are you going to do? You would move yourself into more threatening position, and your advisory would respond to that.

 

[s3kiz]

I understand your need to disagree with what I said, but the era of dogfighting is over, and i shall try to explain why.

Now, firtly let consider that ever since aircraft were invented adopted to be used in war times, weapons applied on them have been at first directional and gradually increasing in angles. I'm referring to the point and shoot necessity that existed ever since aircract invention, only gradually been overcome in our times.

-WW1 planes, man operated machine guns, hand dropped bombs.

-WW2 planes, once again weapons needing the piloting of the plane in-line of the target.

-Fast forward to our times, F15s and Mig29s as the last "continually-proven" throne holders of the fighter plane ladder. They too are needed to be to a certain extend to be in-line of the target, especially their first designs when these models came into existance, later models gained the advantage of increase in elec/guidance tech allowing this to lessen but never diminish in operational models. They were the last proven and trusted "Top Guns" before the new aircraft that are entering into service like th3 F35.

-You say that dogfights occur everyday over the Aegean, true, if Greece does not respect Turkiyes maritime-lines and airspace these are inevitable to happen, it is better to have Turkish aircraft intercepting, Greek AF units than to have both sides firing missiles. That still isnt an example to refute my argument.

-You give an example of how Serb Mig29s tried to shoot down USA F15s, yes true, but that was in 1999 the jubilee decade of "dogfighting", all a operational aircraft of pre-2000 are primarily designed to have good kinematics for increased manouverability to be used in dogfights. Remember the countless, Russian and American "X" types with forward swept wings etc to reduce stability and provide manouverability, and the various attempts to control such unstable designs.

F35 and planes with similar design philosophy have increasingly smaller detection on enemy radar, both at ground and air. Such planes also have the ability to detect enemy targets further away. And such planes can fire on an enemy 360 degs around it.

Let me fly an F35* and fire an aa missile to you from a distance i can see you but you cant see me, and you try to dodge that missile in your Eurofighter* that you can do "backflips" in.

or...

Let me fly an F35 and fire an aa missile to you when you are directly above me flying (or anywhere 360 degs of me) a "backflip" Eurofighter trying to position your craft to shoot at me while you are dogfighting me and while i dont have to dogfight you to shoot at you from a longer distance and any angle.

Prior to these next gen aircraft, dogfighting was priority/capability no1, the elec/radar/firing priority/capability was no2.

Now its turned the other way with the advancements in tech development.

Electronics/radar/fire control have become the priority and increased in capability.

The increase in dogfighting capability is/will still be there, but the above development has taken its importance, usage and role placing dogfighting in a second position.

Sure dogfighting will still be used in greatly saturated air battles, but if i can see you without been seen to you, if i can lock on to you at a further distance than you can me, if i can shoot at you at any angle when you cant, it doesnt matter how many backflips or chinese acrobacy you do, with respect.....you will be down.

Dogfighting is over.

Cheers.



* or anything like it.

 

[JackGr]

If dogfight is over why does F-35 have a 25 mm cannon?And why does it take Sidewinders?