Arms race: Greece & Turkey

[JackGr]

I'm sure TAI will do a great job.They have experience.Correct me if it's not TAI that would take up the project.

 

[Lostfleet]

Sorry for being off-topic.But you should know there's no way for such a war,both are NATO member's,Greece is in EU,there's no way sth like that could happen,and I wish it remains like that,cause just imagine the domino effect of a situation like that.

Although any war is unlikely due to the interference of EU and US, there will be still some tension going on between two countries. Greek and Turkish Armed Forces have a challenging task of preparing for both long term warfare and short term warfare ( In my most humble opinion). Every army is prepared for long term warfare but in this case, if there is ever a conflict between two countries, it will last only a few days ( due to the interference of other countries or unions mentioned above). At this moment it will up to the Air Force and Navies to have quick decisive victories over the skies and seas of Aegean Sea before the international intervention.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

I'm sure TAI will do a great job.They have experience.Correct me if it's not TAI that would take up the project.

Yes TAI there is no one else. Why doesn't Greece build it's own fighters(they are capable)? And Greece and Turkey will not go to war with each other because they both are friendly nations with each other (Greece supports Turkey into EU). Turkey only has problems on the other side with Syria Iran Iraq Armenia, and the seaboard ones Russian and Ukraine, other then that what happened 100 years ago should not be a interference anymore, odd because Turkey fought with Anzacs (Australians and New Zealanders) and that is what caused the friendship , then again it was not Australia's choice it was England's but still they became allies after the war (WW1).

 

[F-15 Eagle]

I dunno but the Turkish one will be either equal or better then the U.S one after the first batch we are putting our own avionics, maybe the upgrades i stated and the stealth paint. And the only thing the export F-35`s don`t have that the USAF versions do have is the stealth paint.

You don't even know if Turkey will even get the F-35. And if they do, it will NOT be better than USAF F-35s let alone being equal to them.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

You don't even know if Turkey will even get the F-35. And if they do, it will NOT be better than USAF F-35s let alone being equal to them.

You have sources for this? Turkey paid lots of money for development and if the U.S says no they really cannot, (I would be happy) Turkey can then go and spend there billions of dollars on something else like the Japanese or Korean fighter (they need the money more then the U.S), Turkey might even be provoked to come up with there own fighter.

 

[Yasin20]

You have sources for this? Turkey paid lots of money for development and if the U.S says no they really cannot, (I would be happy) Turkey can then go and spend there billions of dollars on something else like the Japanese or Korean fighter (they need the money more then the U.S), Turkey might even be provoked to come up with there own fighter.

if it is a no then turkiye can always look back to the east again for some more technology like the KFX program that kinde of money would be taken off the F35 and go into the KFX instead and i mean south korea did offer turkiye to join the project as well

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

@Ozzy

2)Ok then who knows if F-35s can really do what they and it's not an advertisment from the consortium to sell more?I'm not saying that they are 100% true references,but you don't know if they are 100% wrong either.

Because they explain exactly how all of the F-35's systems work in principle, not just make massive claims with no real basieng in physics. No ones claiming the F-35A is invisible in the visible spectrum are they? If they were i would be scheptical!

Anyway the Russians are notorious of overstateing their miltary capability and in general and the capability of their individual weapons systems. The Americans on the other hand are natoriously tight liped about individual capabilities and things like detection ranges are allways understated.

F-22A has delivered on the same questionable technologies has it not? The same people are makeing the F-35A and they're not doing anything radically different.

3)Never said it's a mythical system,but let me think that there is a possibility it can do what they say(all guys here accuse me of that )

I never said it absoloutly wont, but as I said untill they back up their claims with some physical princples I will have to really, really doubt it. Anyway they've been incredibly vauge as to this stealth engagement capabilities, they just sa it can "engage" VLO, so people assume they can engage it like they could a legacy platform. Considering Big Bird is an L/S band radar, unless they have enough power output to see 1/4 the way to the moon they wont detect VLO platforms in the way they do with 4th gen platforms. But whats important is at what range it can detect and track a VLO platform, if its 50km, then yes technically it may be able to detect and engage VLO platforms, but tactically the ability is udeless.

5)Each one can shoot 16 missiles without reloading.Approximately 8-10 vehs per unit.Take that also into consideration.A good analysis thought,congrats

I was under the impression that each TEL carried a mix with up to 4 48N6DM long range SAM's or up to 12 shorter range 9M96E/9M96E2. 1-2 TEL's per battery. Have a look at the thumbnail, see the satck of 4.

6)And how do you know that?You saw a kind of test somewhere?
Sorry for not speaking so "technical" like you,but I'm just an economist not an defence analyst.

Because all of the Fulcrum and Flanker families utilise the R77+R27 BVR missile familys in combination with centimtric radars, which are preciely the the types of radars and guidence systems 5th gen VLO is designed to defeat. Just take a look at how well F-15's have done vs F-22A's, it'll be the same story.

 

[Grand Danois]

I dunno but the Turkish one will be either equal or better then the U.S one after the first batch we are putting our own avionics, maybe the upgrades i stated and the stealth paint. And the only thing the export F-35`s don`t have that the USAF versions do have is the stealth paint.

Errr. Stealth technologies are sympathetic and designed for specific purpose on a specific aircraft. So it is not as if you just apply paint and violá - RAM has been applied.

And partner versions aren't likely to be signicantly degraded, if degraded at all wrt stealth.

I think it would be very difficult to improve or upgrade the F-35 avionics. The electronics are very high-end and highly integrated into the F-35 combat systems.

 

[JackGr]

@Ozzy
Ozzy you might be right,I don't disagree completely with you it remains for us to see how things will go.For the numbers it says the 4 "bigs(you are right thanks) but "..can accommodate up to 16 9M96Ye missiles..." with a range of 120km. Source:http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-400.htm
Correct me please if I am wrong.I am also interested in the R-77M1 to see how good it will be.Also it is said that the new PAK-FA will have AESA radar

@Attila
Building your own plane costs a lot,new lines lines of production,new investments etc,although the GDP is quite big for being a country of 11million ,people prefer these money to be spent in education,healthcare etc.Of course we could spent billions,for our own MBT,our own plane,our own UAV etc but that would throw us back.It's a decision of which type of economy you want to be,up to now we prefered being a tourist heaven But there's a possibility for building here the Rafale,it's a quite good deal,and it will provide jobs and tech.I agree with you,about the friendship issue,althought there were some backstabs like the good relations of FYROM-Turkey

Excuse me again if I went a bit out of the topic

 

[jedigman]

@Ozzy
Ozzy you might be right,I don't disagree completely with you it remains for us to see how things will go.For the numbers it says the 4 "bigs(you are right thanks) but "..can accommodate up to 16 9M96Ye missiles..." with a range of 120km. Source:http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-400.htm
Correct me please if I am wrong.I am also interested in the R-77M1 to see how good it will be.Also it is said that the new PAK-FA will have AESA radar

@Attila
Building your own plane costs a lot,new lines lines of production,new investments etc,although the GDP is quite big for being a country of 11million ,people prefer these money to be spent in education,healthcare etc.Of course we could spent billions,for our own MBT,our own plane,our own UAV etc but that would throw us back.It's a decision of which type of economy you want to be,up to now we prefered being a tourist heaven But there's a possibility for building here the Rafale,it's a quite good deal,and it will provide jobs and tech.I agree with you,about the friendship issue,althought there were some backstabs like the good relations of FYROM-Turkey

Excuse me again if I went a bit out of the topic

I'm sure if Turkey included the unofficial business's i.e drug barrons, prostitution we would reached the trillion dollar mark along time ago

 

[JackGr]

Even if you do it,it has no meaning except of showing-off.It has no meaning because the gov is not taking any taxes from these kind of activities.

 

[jedigman]

Even if you do it,it has no meaning except of showing-off.It has no meaning because the gov is not taking any taxes from these kind of activities.

So Greece is showing off ? I've been to Athens and gotta say it doesn't look like a country with a GDP of 35,000 euros. Same can be said for Ankara but Turkiye's GDP is much lower at 10,000.

 

[JackGr]

My comment wasn't for Turkey.It's a logical truth,counting black economy into real GDP isn't legal and has no statistical truth.Answering to what you said no,Greece is not showing off,although there were some adjustments lately to how we count the GDP.I am not going to persuade you that the per capita is 35.000 euros,it depends to which part and neighbourhood of Athens you've been ,go to USA you will find poor people too,go to Switzerland same thing(the countries just are chosen for example), though I didn't say it's paradise here.But please don't take it so personal,let's keep the discussion about defense subjects and in a friendly way.Thanks in advance.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

You have sources for this? Turkey paid lots of money for development and if the U.S says no they really cannot, (I would be happy) Turkey can then go and spend there billions of dollars on something else like the Japanese or Korean fighter (they need the money more then the U.S), Turkey might even be provoked to come up with there own fighter.

Turkey is a partner nation in the F-35 program, not an export customer....yet.

Perhaps you can give me a source saying Turkish F-35s will be better than u.s. F-35s, or perhaps a source saying Turkey will really get the F-35 at all.

 

[jedigman]

Thanks for the :nutkick

France has stepped up its Rafale marketing in Greece, and is offering technology transfer and co-production work to local industry. (Dassault Aviation photo)Today, March 4 2008, Mr. Eric Trappier Rafale International Managing Director has inaugurated the Rafale International office, located 80-88 Syngrou Avenue, 117 41 Athens in presence of H. E. Mr Christophe Farnaud, Ambassador of France in Greece, during a ceremony held at the French Embassy.

Greece should ACCEPT ! :smash

 

[JackGr]

I don't know if we should accept,there are "+" and "-",it's a middle offer for me judging by the plane.We might as well wait to see what EADS is going to offer.

 

[eliaslar]

According to Turkish F-35's capabilities, Turkey is a level 3 member of the consortium, the only 1st level member is UK, so i think only USAF and RAF have a word in what will happen according to the systems that will be put on it.
Also Ozzy talked about the RCS of the airplane, the number he said is the same as a metal golf ball has and that means that it's not so...stealthy modern RADARS can detect such a ball at ranges of more than 60kms (see Thales Smart-L RADAR) and in something less than 5 years there will be Greek ships (Frigates) with such RADARS on the Aegean.
Also if Turkey choses to leave the program, as Norway already did (i think), then, if i overlook the money that will be lost forever and that's a big amount, even for Turkish strong economy, as it is claimed here, will it wait for at least 1 more decade for the Japanese or the Korean fighter to come true??? Greek air force will not only have the upper hand over the Aegean but also on the Aegean sea.

 

[s3kiz]

Also if Turkey choses to leave the program, as Norway already did (i think), then.....will it wait for at least 1 more decade for the Japanese or the Korean fighter to come true??? Greek air force will not only have the upper hand over the Aegean but also on the Aegean sea.

I'm learning new things here

Lets assume that Turkiye did leave the F35 programme, which with the current evidence is close to nill with research and production already underway (ps: JackGr dont ask me what underway means again , you can search the individual job sharing of F35 been done by each involved country including Turkiye).

Anyway lets assume that Turkiye did leave and cease to follow up on the F35 programme, how will that give the Greeks the "upper hand over the Aegean but also on the Aegean sea" as eliaslar claims?

With all respect, on what evidence/analysis/comparison do you claim such a certain claim on eliaslar?

Assuming that Turkiye does not have a projected force addition of the F35, how is that still a scenario that will result into certain Greek advantage over the Aegean or any part of the related geography?

Are you making such a certain claim with the present force layout of Greek armed forces (mainly AF and NF) vs current Turkish counterparts?

...or...

Are you including into the Greek force the S400s,Mig/Su/Rafale/Eurofighters as well?

Please kindly detail to us how you think Greek armed forces will have the upper hand over the Aegean skies and waters with an (unlikely) withdrawall of Turkiye from the F35 programme.

What is the force matrix on both sides of the Aegean that you are visiualising? allowing you to make such a certain claim?

Cheers.

 

[eliaslar]

The hypothesis i am doing is not so fictionary, i am sure Turkey will not resign from F-35, i think this topic is about arms race right? so it's not so faulty to talk about future additions to our military inventory,am i wrong?
i don't know the exact weapons Turkey and Greece will have in some years but from the programs that are running now i can say the following about the major programs our countries are planning

a) Greece has already operational it's AWACS, on the contrary Turkey doens't have something similar and won't have for the next 5 years

b) on 2010-2011 the next generation Greek fighter will be on duty, on the contrary F-35, will be operational, if everything is ok at 2013

c)on 2012-2013 the new Greek frigates, with extended AAW capabilities will be operational, to tell you the truth i don't know more about the Turkish navy frigate program.

now comes the hypothesis i made above, if Turkey resignes from the program and, as i assumed, joins the Korean or the Japanese fighter program, which will postpone the entrance of a next generation fighter on Turkey's side for more than 10 years after 2013, won't that give the upper hand on Greece, till the new Turkish fighter be operational?
As you see i don't put on the field S400 or something else, also i mention only the top priority programs on both sides, not the attack helicopters, tanks and so on. Forgive me if i was misunderstood my friend

 

[JackGr]

I didn't ask I don't believe either that you will quit,also it's more logical for Turkey to buy US made weapons than European.I guess what he meant with upper hand was that being weak in air will make you be weak in sea despite your new corvettes etc etc because you shouldn't forget those Exocet AM39 Mirages 2000 can shoot.(I'm talking about nowadays inventory ).It's a scenario,but I don't think it will ever happen.