Arms race: Greece & Turkey

[s3kiz]

If dogfight is over why does F-35 have a 25 mm cannon?And why does it take Sidewinders?

Please re-read my above post JackGr.

The best rifle with night vision, laser pointer and all other high tech rifle goodies still has a bayonet option to it.

This doesnt mean i should forget the first mentioned goodies of my rifle and the advantages they give me in field 24hours and only concentrate in killing my enemy only by going into his trench/hideout or nearby him and use my bayonet, does it?

It doesnt JackGr.

Cheers.

 

[eliaslar]

everything you said is very nice but what happens on a stealth vs stealth, or to place it better, F-35 vs F-35 sittuation? who will see the other first? and who will fire first? both fighters will have the same capabilities so they will be equal, they won't see the other until getting really close, if they are really stealth, and we all know that a distance of some kilometers is covered in a matter of seconds. so we come again to the dogfight way of fighting.

History has proven lots of times that, when someone thinks that he might not use something again and feels reluctant about his abilities, then his reluctancy is the best weapon to defeat him.

@balamir
i didn't really understand you, but getting a better tactical position, is a part of the dogfight, to achieve your goal. Of course a Greek fighter wouldn't shot down a Turkish fighter and the same wouldn't happen from the Turkish side, but taking advantage of the opponent is part of the game.

@s3kiz
about dogfights over Aegean, i don't think that Greece must use it's readiness aircrafts to violate your space, that can be done, if it is done, from aircrafts allready on a mission. Readiness aircrafts are used when Turkish aircrafts violates Greek air-maritime space. But that's good because we can both be trained, from each other.

 

[JackGr]

Please re-read my above post JackGr.

The best rifle with night vision, laser pointer and all other high tech rifle goodies still has a bayonet option to it.

This doesnt mean i should forget the first mentioned goodies of my rifle and the advantages they give me in field 24hours and only concentrate in killing my enemy only by going into his trench/hideout or nearby him and use my bayonet, does it?

It doesnt JackGr.

Cheers.

I read it,your last line was "Dogfighting is over",I replied to that.You said it very nicely here,even laser point exist,bayonet will never stop existing.When the forces are equal,and since electronic warfare is making huge steps,possibilities that the two planes come close to each other are still very big.

 

[eliaslar]

Maybe the designer of a modern rifle with a bayonet may know something more than the designer of a modern aircraft without a gun

 

[s3kiz]

Dear eliaslar and JackGr;


Lets go step by step.

eliaslar said:
"everything you said is very nice but what happens on a stealth vs stealth, or to place it better, F-35 vs F-35 sittuation? who will see the other first? and who will fire first?"
Well simple, eliaslar, they are on equal footing, the advantages of "distancefighting and dogfighting" are the same, but no matter which aircraft you are flying and for no matter which country you are flying for, you would want to knock down your enemy with without getting him in close to you, so the scenario doesnt change with whichever plane you put in, even if same models.


eliaslar said:
"History has proven lots of times that, when someone thinks that he might not use something again and feels reluctant about his abilities, then his reluctancy is the best weapon to defeat him."
Very precisly eliaslar. History has also proven that rivals tend to downplay the new advantage (permanent or temporary) each other may get changing the balance of advantage between them. Two words are attached to this, persuasion and envy, depending on the situation.

Ever wonder why you and JackGr here or on any other international forum, majority of Greek commenters downplay Turkish F35 acquisition? And bring up all sorts of (factual and majorily superficial) reasons to have the F35 as less then what its capable of? Its because of the same theory you wrote above in the quote applied on a different level.

Anyway personally i want the Greek AF to get either the Eurofighter or Rafale or SU/Mig variants or even better a combination of them, because i really do believe neither of them can directly compare and be dominant on a one-to-one bases against an F35.

I request pls you think whether Greeks are been honest with the undermining they tend to do with F35s because Turks are planning to get them?
Check out the majority of Greek defence forums, majority of the posters undermine F35s and speak highly of the possible Eurofighters/Rafales Greece will get, but these majority are usually professionals nationalist but military amateurs. On contrast there are Greek poster with a greater knowledge of tech and details, warning alarm bells for Greece to be left with a Eurofighter option against a Turkish F35. They are honest and so am I.


eliaslar said:
"about dogfights over Aegean, i don't think that Greece must use it's readiness aircrafts to violate your space, that can be done, if it is done, from aircrafts allready on a mission. ...... But that's good because we can both be trained, from each other."
How is this good? How many dozens of Greek pilots have been dead because they couldnt control their fighter aircrafts in the dogfight they went into against Turkish jets? so many. Its costing both countries lives and equipment, with Greece having lost more pilots and equipment. Yeah you need training but this is an expensive way of training wouldnt you agree? I dont know, somehow training on a simulator in Athens and/or in a planned and organized military excercises in Greek land, sea and air spaces might save your country more lives and money and create less tension between our two neighbouring countries.


JackGr said:
"I read it,your last line was "Dogfighting is over",I replied to that.You said it very nicely here,even laser point exist,bayonet will never stop existing.When the forces are equal,and since electronic warfare is making huge steps,possibilities that the two planes come close to each other are still very big."
I did and still do say that dogfighting era is over, and gave many reasons for this in my posts and im glad you see my reasoning. Regarding your question in the last line above, i have answered it already in this post to a similar question eliaslar asked above.


I understand your (eliaslar & JackGr) personal needs to not agree with what i say, but unless you prove technical and detailed arguments on why dogfighting as we know it is not over, i will stand behind my argument that it is over due to the reasons i have put forward.

Cheers.

 

[s3kiz]

Maybe the designer of a modern rifle with a bayonet may know something more than the designer of a modern aircraft without a gun

Come on eliaslar


Cheers.

 

[JackGr]

First of all there are no personal needs not to agree with you.In the same way I can't provide techical data,you can't either,defense companies either,that's the reason they put those guns...in case dogfight happens
Also you are wrong about Greek fora,in everyone I read they all say how good choice F-35 is,and how much it will help Turkish defense industry.I would also like to remind you that I didn't say it's not good,I just said it's not supernatural as some opinions here made it.Finally let me have my opinion that new Su-XX variants are far better...although we will never have them.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

Sekiz I would also like to add the fact that the F-35 is not a 747 it in fact in should be very maneuverable because it is a short fighter it has big wings for it's size it is small, on top of that one engine, HUGE ailerons and much much more so if it comes to dog fighting I still think the F-35 will be a very worthy opponent in a dogfight.

I would also like to say that Turkey is buying 100 F-35, that number does not come close to replacing many of it's aging F-4 and F-16 (older blocks sooner or latter you are going to run out of Blocks to upgrade too). And I see it as this if Turkey does join EU they probable are going to replace those other airplanes with EU solutions.

I would really wish Turkey would buy Grippens at least 30 and they can get the customization offer like the Norwegians did that way Turkey can add the stuff like the 360 degree target locker and an advanced more fuel efficient engine, slight things like this incl actually makes it still cheaper then the F-35. Plus the Grippen can land on civilian roads Turkey could take such advantage of this either in the Aegean for interceptions or in the South east against the terrorists threats.

In the End the F-35 is meant more for bombing then A2A and it might take one dogfight to either learn this or to throw this thought out the door either way Turkish generals are going to react according to the each situation.

 

[eliaslar]

I wouldn't say it's envy my friend, F-35 is a potentially good aircraft.
Also because there is a ballance in the armed forces our countries have and because my country has to maintain it, as your country also have to do, then there has to be an answer to F-35 from our side.
Also about the undermining of F-35, as you said there are Greeks that are on favour of it, but don't you like the opposite side of view, or everyone must agree that F-35 is the best? If you ask a Russian or a German he will answer that another aircraft, probably one Russia or Germany is manufacturing, is the best and so he will also try to "undermine" every other project, just to make his machine look better. That's defence of what we have or will have and not "envy" of what others have or will have, unless someone thinks that he is the one and only in the world and everybody is jealous about him...but that interesting because it is showing some kind of psychological problem.
Also I don't think that every man on this planet must have the same mind as i have, and because i have a free will i try to express it, as everyone else can do.
There are many forums that Greeks and Turks are fighting, we all know about our people and how they react to each other, but that's the very short minded point of view. right?

Now, you said something about the dead Greek pilots, do you forget the dead Turkish pilots or are they of the same training level of the Greek pilots, as you refer? I know the training level of my side and the training level of your side, but i never refered with such words. We both have lost many souls over this sea, but i saw something like ignorance on your words. Maybe a little respect to the dead would be nice. At least in Greek history we have learned to mourn and respect the dead from the enemy's side also.

Technical statement of what I and JackGR claim is not so easy to be done, but if dogfights were not to happen, why there aren't so many missile projects with very long ranges? i think most missiles evolved now are still for medium - short ranges.

 

[s3kiz]

I can't provide techical data,you can't either,defense companies either,that's the reason they put those guns...in case dogfight happens .

lol Yeah, I agree with you there JackGr, like the saying goes, when you selling a shoe, sell a sock to go with it too.

Anyway the defence companies do provide technical data, otherwise no one would buy their products. However that isnt what i requested when i said:

"unless you prove technical and detailed arguments on why dogfighting as we know it is not over, i will stand behind my argument that it is over due to the reasons i have put forward."

Arguments is the key word there, not data as in specs etc, of course you need the knowledge of some spec at least to be able to base arguments on.

I reasoned the development and usage of weaponry on aircraft in history very lightly and gave examples of the increase in the capability of electronics to support that dogfights as we know are out, i was merely countered by the presence of a cannon on an F35 as to it wasnt, thats why i asked for more indepth technical argument to prove me false, not data etc.

Also you are wrong about Greek fora,in everyone I read they all say how good choice F-35 is,and how much it will help Turkish defense industry.I would also like to remind you that I didn't say it's not good,I just said it's not supernatural as some opinions here made it.

They are the some honest/knowledgable Greek posters there I mentioned

Anyway the start of all this discussion started when i replied some posts back to reply to Yasin20 implying that it would have been better for us, Turkiye, to be part of a KFX project instead of F35 as according to him its more a2a capable, thats why i answered to him and commented that:

"The times of dogfighting is over, airsuperiorty now is based on detection and firing without been in the enemys detection range. Thats what the F35 is for all air,ground and sea targets."

To which both you and eliaslar jumped at disagreeing stating otherwise without really providing solid arguments instead speaking of pre-2000 air events, cannons on F35s etc.

Besides no one said that F35s are supernatural, i didnt say or read such a thing implied by anyone here. People are only putting their thought about F35s based on its proven and proposed abilities. Read the post Ozzy Blizzard had made a few posts back, he has the knowledge of data and english more than you and i, so he does a good explanation. No one thinks or commented to imply F35 is supernatural, so you dont have to feel so defensive against it, because Turkiye is getting it, we might not, you might, or both of us might, theres no certainties as yet.

....my opinion that new Su-XX variants are far better...although we will never have them.

Which Su-XX variant, theres a big range, or do you mean each individual Su series? if so how is it better than an F35?

Anyway, stay well, its getting late here in Turkiye.

Cheers.

 

[s3kiz]

eliaslar said:
"about dogfights over Aegean, i don't think that Greece must use it's readiness aircrafts to violate your space, that can be done, if it is done, from aircrafts allready on a mission. ...... But that's good because we can both be trained, from each other."

My response:
"How is this good? How many dozens of Greek pilots have been dead because they couldnt control their fighter aircrafts in the dogfight they went into against Turkish jets? so many. Its costing both countries lives and equipment, with Greece having lost more pilots and equipment. Yeah you need training but this is an expensive way of training wouldnt you agree? I dont know, somehow training on a simulator in Athens and/or in a planned and organized military excercises in Greek land, sea and air spaces might save your country more lives and money and create less tension between our two neighbouring countries."


To this response of mine eliaslars response:
"..you said something about the dead Greek pilots, do you forget the dead Turkish pilots or are they of the same training level of the Greek pilots, as you refer? I know the training level of my side and the training level of your side, but i never refered with such words. We both have lost many souls over this sea, but i saw something like ignorance on your words. Maybe a little respect to the dead would be nice.."

Dear eliaslar before coming to conclusions and responding like this please re-read my response above that you obviously have not read well or mis-understood. I had mentioned the deaths of both Turkish and Greek pilots because of the Greek violations of Turkish airspace, check it pls.

Remember in your first post about this matter that i quoted above, you say this the dogfight over Aegean is a good thing for training for Greek AF, i merely commented that it isnt good for training, causing the deaths of both Turkish and Greek pilots, statistically proven over the last few decades with more Greek pilots dying than Turkish pilots.

And no where in what i wrote did i show a lack of respect, quite the contrary, its because of respect i have for human life whatever his/her nationality that i call for you to change your opinion that the dogfight on the Aegean are "good training" and take it and do it on simulators in Athens or in military exercises in Greek border lines, not in the Aegean sea and airspaces, causing the deaths of people and continuing the friction between our two countries.

Its not worth it.

Cheers.

 

[s3kiz]

Sekiz I would also like to add the fact that the F-35 is not a 747 ..........I would really wish Turkey would buy Grippens at least 30 and they can get the customization offer like the Norwegians did that way Turkey can add the stuff like the 360 degree target locker and an advanced more fuel efficient engine, slight things like this incl actually makes it still cheaper then the F-35.

Atilla thank you, yes i didnt see the need to mention it but you did and i think its good that you did, F35 is not a 747.

Thanks for that reminder, a needed one.

But I'm amazed at requests like the gripens or rafales or KFX or even eurofighters, these are good planes/concepts but guys the best operational/operational-to-be multi-purpose planes out there are:

1) F22

2) F35

3) add what you like according to your knowledge, national policy, affinity with the company you work with or the design you like solely on aesthetics etc.

The way i see it is that Turkiye will, without any unexpected alterations, complete the F35 project, after about a decade after that go into a joint venture into an "F22 like" project with a foreign partner if USA does still limit its export to allies.

Without been disrespectfull, forget the gripen, KFX or any other alternatives, sure observe and get to know them for their technology, what they can do and any new design ideas they bring forward, but our main concentration should be on the completion and the experience we gain from the F35 and the follow up minor&major local modernization of them in time, and later on a development of a mainly Turkish stealth fighter, a next gen one that will at least equal the F22. Will take time but its possible and if you ask me will happen.

Cheers.

 

[JackGr]

Take for example the future laser they say that F-35 will have for defensive purposes,if in future more and more planes use those techniques,missiles ill probably be useless,then we will be driven to a new era were laser will be used for offensive reasons,so dogfighting will continue.I know it's a mixture of science fiction and nowadys-science but it's my total belief that we are going straight there.I suppose his arguement about training and our dead was because you used some sentences like "..because they couldnt control their fighter aircrafts ..",if they just flied they cound control it,but in a close dogfight with big tension,fate didn't let them," ...I dont know, somehow training on a simulator in Athens ...",there are new simulators here but when someone is trespassing your national airspace,you must go and intercept him no matter the cost,so next time I think you(not you as a person,you as a nation should take that into consideration so that there will be less tension,a thing that I really want very very much.Finally my opinion is that as someone can say we downplay F-35 cause we are Greek,someone can also say you exaggerate for it because you are Turkish Truth has more than one versions...

 

[gf0012-aust]

Everyone:

Get back onto a technical discussion and get off National politics.

This is the last chance on this or we will close the thread.

Any future comments that continue off topic run the risk of complete deletion if not thread closure.

This is for everyone to note - not just the last few posters.

 

[s3kiz]

Turkish defense sector 'blooms,' says leading CEO in the business.


Turkey's defense industry is growing more confident in its ability to work closely with foreign heavyweight companies in the worlds arms market, the head of a Turkish company in the sector told the Turkish Daily News in an exclusive interview.

The future of the defense sector in Turkey is bright thanks to a combination of advantages Turkey enjoys in human skills, the benefits of being a newcomer to the global market and a determination on the part of state institutions to create growth impetus for domestic companies, said İsmail Başyiğit, the founder and CEO of Milsoft, Turkey's leading defense software company whose annual sales reached $30 million last year.

The days that Turkey used to simply purchase weapons systems are over, he said. Foreign defense companies can only hope to enter the Turkish arms market by forming research and development (R&D) partnerships with Turkish counterparts, said Başyiğit.

“Let me make this clear: Turkey is capable of developing its own technologies and never intends to get hold of technologies produced by others. Our desire is to participate in the manufacturing of joint defense systems with nationally developed technologies and sell them to third parties, together with foreign partners,” said Başyiğit. Turkish exports already cover a wide range of countries from Netherlands to the United Arab Emirates, from Pakistan to the United States, with a total value that reached $350 million in 2006 according to figures of Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM).

Integration with the West is of utmost importance for Turkey's defense industry, said Başyiğit. “It will never be economically feasible for us to undertake some projects. But using our own capabilities within those projects is the right policy to follow,” he said.

“No matter how much Western companies lobby, no matter how hard they try, Turkey will only choose partnership models that will enable it to undertake further modifications, maintenance and developments without reliance on foreign expertise,” he said.

His ambitions are matched by policies of SSM, established in 1985 to create a modern arms industry in Turkey. SSM is resolute in its goal of boosting domestic share of the Turkish military's procurement to 50 percent in 2010. Current domestic procurement level meets 35 to 40 percent of the military's demand, and is deemed “insufficient” in the “2008 Roadmap for Defense Research and Development” document released in January. According to data from SSM, the total production value in the Turkish armament industry reached $1.7 billion in 2006.

Goals ahead, pitfalls to avoid

Başyiğit elaborated the tasks for Turkish defense companies and the strategies to get there. Turkey needs to aim for the high and reusable technology development areas, where it can use highly qualified workforce, like software development and system integration, in order to secure a sound position in the global arms market, said Başyiğit.

Software capability tells the difference between same kinds of weapons platforms, which are usually durable for long years. “We can use weapon platforms like tanks and airplanes for 20 or 30 years, but electronic systems on them develop more rapidly. Software is the main component that will connect the various command and control systems on a platform,” he said.

System integration capability vital

System integration is the second capability that Turkey needs to master, said Başyiğit. “It is crucial to determine various defense industry companies' capabilities, like company A's radar, B's weapons and C's sonar, and to be able bring them together on a common platform,” said Başyiğit.

System integration capability is vital also for avoiding a pitfall that could hamper the growth of the fledgling Turkish defense industry. “Some companies are contemplating on developing a capability that another company already has acquired. I see this as a serious potential risk,” said Başyiğit, adding that gaining a new capability, usually considered an economically unfeasible project, requires subsidies from the state. “Sources of defense companies and Turkey are limited, and they should be used in harmony in order not to duplicate the capabilities within different companies,” he stated and added that SSM allows sufficient space for competition in the development stage of a fresh capability.

Reflecting its sensitivity on preventing duplication, SSM included foundation of “Perfection Centers” to coordinate works of defense related institutions in its 2008 plans.

Competitive sides of Turkish defense industry

The Turkish defense industry can only hope to survive in the sea of global defense market dominated by big fish like Boeing, Lockheed Martin or EADS, by relying on its superior trained workforce. “One of Turkey's advantages over Europe is the popularity of engineering departments of universities among its youth. In the West this is not the case,” said Başyiğit.

Turkish firms' main competitors are companies from countries like India, which benefit from cheap labor to become sub-contractors to global arms industry giants. However when it comes to defense, cheap labor is not always the winner. Milsoft engineers had worked with Sikorsky for some time, when the company called for tenders to install software on a new helicopter it manufactured. Software would track functioning of electronic systems on the aircraft, report any malfunctions to the pilot and record them. “In 2000, we were in the shortlist with an Indian company, which offered much lower prices than we did. But our workforce was much more qualified and we enjoy advanced working infrastructure and quality systems. Sikorsky did not take the risk and preferred us, despite the relatively high price we put before them,” said Başyiğit.

International compatibility obligatory

The rising wages in the Turkish economy spells impossibility of relying on cheap labor to compete with Asian countries said Başyiğit, and urged Turkish companies to work on creating added value.

Milsoft is the first firm in Europe and Turkey that obtained Capability Maturity Model Integration (CMMI) level 5, a U.S. supported system of measuring a company's capability of software development processes. CMMI also establishes a pattern of doing business between firms of different countries.

Meeting international standards is fundamental to benefit from SSM's strategy of providing room for domestic firms to export their products. Offset deals have reached a total value of $6.9 billion and the current number of offset deals that oblige foreign companies to purchase Turkish defense products stands at 54.

Turkish defense industry not ‘hunchbacked'

The second advantage Turkey enjoys is exactly the point that is considered its weakness, namely being a newcomer to the global defense industry, as its firms do not bear the burden of renewing their former working systems to start production of a new technology. “Foreign companies usually try to increase their profits by selling greater amounts of technologies they already possess, since shedding existing products away to concentrate on a new one is expensive. We, on the other hand, have the possibility of starting from the level reached by latest technologies and focus our energy on acquiring more advanced ones,” said Başyiğit.

Milsoft's strategy in climbing top of the ladder in “ship integrated warfare management systems” is a telling example of the merits of that strategy. The company launched an R&D project for ship command and control systems in 2000, with support from Scientific and Technological Research Council of Turkey (TÜBİTAK). “Towards the end of 2003, we noticed that the world is headed towards new technologies in this field. We adopted newly developed but yet unapproved standards and combined them with our four years of experience. As a result we became a major player in the world in this field,” said Başyiğit, emphasizing the leverage Turkish companies may gain over their competitors, since they are not haunted by backward compatibility requirements. "Our advantages can create excellent results when coupled with the will of the SSM to support us. I am very hopeful about the future," said Başyiğit.


source: http://trmilitary.com/esite/

 

[Atilla [TR]]

Turkish defense sector 'blooms,' says leading CEO in the business.

The days that Turkey used to simply purchase weapons systems are over, he said. Foreign defense companies can only hope to enter the Turkish arms market by forming research and development (R&D) partnerships with Turkish counterparts, said Başyiğit.

“Let me make this clear: Turkey is capable of developing its own technologies and never intends to get hold of technologies produced by others. Our desire is to participate in the manufacturing of joint defense systems with nationally developed technologies and sell them to third parties, together with foreign partners,” said Başyiğit. Turkish exports already cover a wide range of countries from Netherlands to the United Arab Emirates, from Pakistan to the United States, with a total value that reached $350 million in 2006 according to figures of Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM).



Goals ahead, pitfalls to avoid

Başyiğit elaborated the tasks for Turkish defense companies and the strategies to get there. Turkey needs to aim for the high and reusable technology development areas, where it can use highly qualified workforce, like software development and system integration, in order to secure a sound position in the global arms market, said Başyiğit.

Software capability tells the difference between same kinds of weapons platforms, which are usually durable for long years. “We can use weapon platforms like tanks and airplanes for 20 or 30 years, but electronic systems on them develop more rapidly. Software is the main component that will connect the various command and control systems on a platform,” he said.

System integration capability vital

System integration is the second capability that Turkey needs to master, said Başyiğit. “It is crucial to determine various defense industry companies' capabilities, like company A's radar, B's weapons and C's sonar, and to be able bring them together on a common platform,” said Başyiğit.

Reflecting its sensitivity on preventing duplication, SSM included foundation of “Perfection Centers” to coordinate works of defense related institutions in its 2008 plans.

Competitive sides of Turkish defense industry

The Turkish defense industry can only hope to survive in the sea of global defense market dominated by big fish like Boeing, Lockheed Martin or EADS, by relying on its superior trained workforce. “One of Turkey's advantages over Europe is the popularity of engineering departments of universities among its youth. In the West this is not the case,” said Başyiğit.
peful about the future," said Başyiğit.


source: http://trmilitary.com/esite/

What I would like to hear more about is anything about the firearms industry not pistols (too many good options there from Turkey) but the rifle M.K.E is not doing a good job (various topics discussed different posts), and all Turkish small arms companies Sarsilmaz, Canik, Tisas, chould start making there own assult rifles if they do not sell here they will sell in various other countries, that way we do not have to rely on MKE, for all our arms.

 

[eliaslar]

According to Greek defence magazines during the next month EMB-145H Erieyes, will be fully delivered to HAF. According to the magazines, unfortunatelly this article is not on the web to link you there, the technical problems are solved.
Also there is a reference in an article about the new Turkish attack helicopter, according to the article Turkey wants Turkish equipment, which is normal, to be used on the helicopter A129 Mangusta, but there are political problems as to this demand. Also a member of the parliament began an investigation about the program, because of some of it's technical details and a high payment in advance of 50% on it's total cost. Also Turkish military analysts think that this might put the whole program under question. If everything goes as planned the first A129 will be delivered to Turkish Army not earlier than 2014.
I tried to translate the article i found

Also about the new Greek fighter program, in the upcoming months there will be an RfP and the demand will be for 40 aircrafts which will have to be delivered by the end of 2010.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

Also about the new Greek fighter program, in the upcoming months there will be an RfP and the demand will be for 40 aircrafts which will have to be delivered by the end of 2010.

F-35 is out of the question for sure, but could it be the F-16 E/F version.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

Also there is a reference in an article about the new Turkish attack helicopter, according to the article Turkey wants Turkish equipment, which is normal, to be used on the helicopter A129 Mangusta, but there are political problems as to this demand. Also a member of the parliament began an investigation about the program, because of some of it's technical details and a high payment in advance of 50% on it's total cost. Also Turkish military analysts think that this might put the whole program under question. If everything goes as planned the first A129 will be delivered to Turkish Army not earlier than 2014.
I tried to translate the article i found

Says the Greek media, the Turkish media says it is going by ok. The generals are saying that it is on schedule and everything is good.



"Q:Will there be a delay in the ATAK helicopter programme?
A:No, there is no delay at all. In april the prototype production will begin, unlike it was rumoured there are no problems with the Rolls Royce and Honeywell engines been considered to be used in these platforms. The Project cost is about 2.7 billion dollars. The main contractor is TAI and foreign subsidery is AGUSTA, with Aselsan been the producer of avionics suite."
From S3kiz post about Turkish defense projects.

 

[eliaslar]

yes F-35 is out of question, but if it is to be bought then there must be an order of F-16's or Mirage 2000's to cover the gap, but as i know the option for 30 more F-16's was cancelled.