Arms race: Greece & Turkey

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Atilla [TR]

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The Japanese airplane is up and running just missing a few parts and will come out around the same time frame as the F-35, if the Japanese government continues funding. The ATD-X (Japanese fighter) is perfect for Turkey especially over the Aegean since both Japan and Turkey have the same military doctrine defense and occasional offense :)D A good offense is an excellent defense:D ).
 

jedigman

New Member
a) Greece has already operational it's AWACS, on the contrary Turkey doens't have something similar and won't have for the next 5 years

b) on 2010-2011 the next generation Greek fighter will be on duty, on the contrary F-35, will be operational, if everything is ok at 2013

c)on 2012-2013 the new Greek frigates, with extended AAW capabilities will be operational, to tell you the truth i don't know more about the Turkish navy frigate program.
Have you got links ?

Greece is having trouble paying for the U-214, Leopard 2a4/2a6 hel and some choppers how exactly is Greece going to afford such extensive upgrades ? :confused:

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/business/jdi/jdi080306_1_n.shtml
 
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s3kiz

New Member
eliaslar well you did make a hypothesis, actually a certain claim, without a comparison, reasoning and proof in your previous post, which is why i asked you to back up your hypothesis as to back up your certain claim. :)

Anyway in your last post, you commented:

"on 2010-2011 the next generation Greek fighter will be on duty, on the contrary F-35, will be operational, if everything is ok at 2013"

a) Ok lets go along with this idea. Which plane do you envisage this "next generation Greek fighter" be? an indigenous design? block 50 F16s? Rafales? Eurofighters? combination of Rafale/Eurofighters? block 50 F16s? Mirages? or as has been thrown into hypothesis like before a Su/Mig variant/s?and why? that is what are the proofs to show either way?

b)and lets say Greek AF does get a next generation Greek fighter in 2010-2011, and Turkiye does not stop its F35 programme and gets the F35 in 2013-2015, does Greece (or you :) ) have the intention to attack Turkiye within that 2-4 year time gap between the two airforces getting their new toys? :)

lol

Hypothesis, sure lets draw all kinds of scenarios, without any limitations :) , but like you said eliaslar :

"on 2012-2013 the new Greek frigates, with extended AAW capabilities will be operational, to tell you the truth i don't know more about the Turkish navy frigate program"

and referring to your certain claim without logical proof that Greece will have the upper hand over Aegean, JackGr said:

"I guess what he meant with upper hand was that being weak in air will make you be weak in sea despite your new corvettes etc etc because you shouldn't forget those Exocet AM39 Mirages 2000 can shoot.(I'm talking about nowadays inventory :) )."

This is too simplistic way of looking into a complex defence matters with out comparing what you have (or will have) with what your rival has (or will have), but that too calls for knowledge of what you have and what your rival has. :)

Its a complex matrix of force multipliers, there is NO single conventional weapon or weapon platform (dont even think about the a-bomb either :) ) that works as a magic wand. Its too complex to hypothesis so simply.

Anyway I did a translation of Turkish Defence Industry Undersecretariat Mr Murad Bayars recent interview and posted it on the "general" section of this forum, its a rough guide not detailing the Turkish Navies submarine projects, but i think it might give a slight addition to our "hypothesis making abilities". :)

Cheers.
 

Atilla [TR]

New Member
a) Greece has already operational it's AWACS, on the contrary Turkey doens't have something similar and won't have for the next 5 years

Turkey has AWACS Boeing 737 AEW&C and it is the most modern of all awacs they are completed and they are being delivered to Turkey. "They are the most advanced AWACS out there."
 

JackGr

New Member
Too many things to answer.First of all about U214,we have paid approx all the bid but they refuse to give us the sub as it should be,would you accept a new sub if it didn't have the qualty for which you have paid so much.the only solution is cutting it in the middle and restructuring again I guess,it costs but it should be fixed.The bid was 1,4billions,100 millions aren't so much ;).The MBT also had some problems with the turret but I heard everything's going to go well now(really loving this tank:) ).If you are referring to the Apache,we already have 12 Longbow ,upgrading the rest won't be so hard.
Secondly S3kiz we have no thought of attacking you,if you remember correctly you have casus belli against us not us.Greece has only defensive policy,not sometimes attacking as Attila[TR] says about you (....since both Japan and Turkey have the same military doctrine defense and occasional offense...).
Thirdly S3kiz I talked about nowadays,now only Greece has good anti-ship missiles from air,and since you don't own a new AAW frigate,it's only up to your AF to provide cover.
The only reason I believe 737 AWACS is better than the Embraer is because of the angle it can cover,737 covers 360o ,embraer covers 270o but if used correctly it does the same job.
 

beleg

New Member
Ok some few cents here;

@Ozzy
Turkish AEW&CC aircraft is nicked Peace Eagle (Baris Kartali)

@eliaslar
When did Greece accept the ERIEYEs . As far as i know they are not delivered to HAF officially. They are still being test flown. As for Turkish Peace Eagle, hopefully it will be operational in less than 5 years.

About the New gen Greek fighter , well first open the tender , select a type and sign the contract then we will talk about this. ;)

Same applies for Greek AAW frigates.

The history of military acquisitions for both countries is full of failed "we will have x at the year y" projects. (i.e Turkish TF-2000 , Greek EF-2000 before Athens Olympics , earlier Greek corvette program etc). There is not even a Request for Proposal released for these projects. So lets not say those systems will be active at those dates. Delays and failures are possible for any military program.

Turkey will not resign form the JSF project and will acquire the F-35A as long as the whole project is not canceled.

@JackGr
As far as i know Erieye does not have SAR capability, and its range is limited due to lesser power output than Peace Eagle. Correct me if i am wrong on this. Boeings platform can divert its energy bean to only one side of the antenna to effectively increase its detection range.

SLAM-ERs will be delivered to the F-16 squadrons this year and if you ask me they are far more capable than anything we or you have against ships , especially ships which don't have even a most basic CIWS/point defense system ;) Until one of us have the advanced NSM :p

@Atilla,

can you explain to me how can Turkey , whose R&D economy is only a little fraction of USA develop a more advanced version of F-35 than USA? Please have some logic.
 

JackGr

New Member
Long time to see you.Nice that you are back Beleg.Embraer cover 300o(my bad sorry,although other sources say 360o).Their range is approx. 200 miles ,737 are slightly better but it's a small difference(according to a greek defence magazine).So they are almost similar.SLAM-ERs are great,but you are wrong about the defense of the ships.Our 4 MEKO-200 have 2 Phalanx CIWS each.From our Standard class frigates 8 of them have 1 Phalanx CIWS,and 2 of them have 2 Phalanx CIWS.Also 4 Super Vita Class FACMs have CIWS GMLS RAM .:)
 

beleg

New Member
I am quite busy so might disappear for a while again :)

Have you got any info for the SAR capabilities of Erieye?

Hmm for the CIWS on your frigates , I know about the Hydras but i was quite positive that at least 4 of Ellis don't have CIWS. It was said by Greek forumers on other forums. Even thought 1 phalanx is no where near providing a protection in todays battlefield its of course better than none :D
 

JackGr

New Member
For the frigates I checked again,two units,F465 and F466 (Standard class) don't have CIWS(quite strange I must admit because the other Batch III Standard class have CIWS).Totally agree with your comment:) Also for the power issues I learned that are being solved.Finally for the SAR capabilities all I know is that Ericsson is going to have it as an upgrade for its radar Erieyes can have it,but I don't know if it is going to be integrated into our units.In the Greek official HAF site it says (translation) ...it has the possibility for clarified air and ground pictures...,it's like saying it has (SAR) synthetic aperture radar.But I'm not 100% sure.
 

eliaslar

New Member
@jedigman
I don't have a link to give you but you may forget that Turkey is not the only economically grown up country of the region, so it's not hard for Greece to find the money. Also Greece has some serious external problems with FYROM and our government has already began running those programs as a way to gain some "help" from our allies, that's politics and busines.

@s3kiz
as i mentioned on my reply, i was talking about only the top priority programs, of course upper hand on a territory comes from the whole armed forces of a country and not only a tank program or an air force program.

@beleg
Greece bought the BMP-3's, which was also a big program, without all those Requests you mentioned :)
About the Erieyes, what means officially delivered? :)

According to the new Greek fighter i don't think that all this publicity over the program on the Greek defence magazines is without reason, so i will not be surprised to see a contract coming soon, in the next months. I cannot tell which will be the winner, but as i know, from Greek defence magazines, on 2004, before the Olympic games, there had been an offer from EADS with Greece having a subconstructor member with 5% on EF-2000, even if we lost our chance then i still think this has more chances for a contract.
 

eliaslar

New Member
I read the interview, it is very interesting. Was it in Turkish media or international? When all of these happen, then i will be very jealous about you guys! :)
 

s3kiz

New Member
eliaslar the interview, I sourced from trmilitary dot com, it seems the staff from the forum interviewed Mr. Murad Bayar, I merely did an amateur translation of it to english to post it here like i mentioned on that specific post.

But anyways the projects mentioned in that interview in their general outlines are very well know in the Turkish and international defence circles, and the individual projects mentioned there have coverage in international defence media circles. So they arent new news, although the interview is recent.

We should note that some of the mentioned project programmes have been going on for some time, some even having their root a decade back, back then those were outright purchase programmes but due to global/domestic fiscal problems that affected Turkiye they were frozen. As an example, you might recall the ATAK (Turkish attack helicopter) project which was initially an outright purchase project with many international products from european, american, russian and even south african companies competing for it.

But the delays in such projects did not mean the ceasure of the continuation of their needs. Such "frozen projects" like the ATAK programme , has matured into a licensed modification/indigenous development of an existing AGUSTA platform with Turkish spec engine, armement, control and ew suite modification/manufaturing/ownership.

Personally i think such delays resulted in a better outcome, resulting into programmes that entail the local (Turkish) industry into having a much higher input into the sought after products, paving the way for domestic defence industy to flourish and rapidly develop into increased capacity to answering the needs of Turkish armed forces now and more so in the future.

I think thats something not only you but every defense minded person amateur or professional will be in your words "jealous" of. :)

But like you and every logical person would accept and like how beleg commented precisly, we have seen many projected programmes made by all defence forces that have not seen completion. Of course such possibilities exist too.

But as the Turkish saying "aslan yattigi yerden belli olur" that is "you can tell about a lion from its den" goes, I have great hope of those project to succeed, at least to mature into a better programme in time even if there are alterations/delays they may face.

Anyway, you said previously that you follow up on the Greek military projects through the media, would be nice if you could provide us with some Greek views about the next generation aircraft purchase possibilities.

What are the different opinions and discussions been put forward in the Greek defence circles that you come across your media about such a project?

It is inevitable that a new aircraft will enter Greek AF ranks, and both Rafale and Eurofighter are offering handsome deals with Germans perhaps throwing into the deal IFV possibilities as well.

Would be nice reading if you could provide us with some Greek opinions/articles discussing what you guys think and which way you will go?

Cheers.
 
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eliaslar

New Member
i will try to translate some parts, but that will happen during next week.
Before some days there was a proposal from Rafale International about cooperation in the development and common production of the Aircraft at a 50% percentage on the aircrafts for the HAF and the ones to be sold to other countries. Of course all these will happen if Rafale is chosen from HAF :) Also on February, 4 Rafales on their way to Afghanistan stopped in Tanagra AFB for refuelling and demonstration to Greek pilots.
Also there was a presentation of JAS-39 Gripen, in Athens. There were some officers of Swedish Air Force, but no aircraft came here for a demonstration. I don't know something about a cooperation on the program.
Finally there is no proposal from EADS, till now, from what i know.
 

JackGr

New Member
I just wanted to add that most people here believe that we will have 2 different types,and the F-35 will probably be selected second,if it would be ever selected because of the time needed to be recieved.The first batch is between Rafales and EFs.All believe that EFs are better,the advantages of Rafales up to now are 1)lower cost,2)participation in production,3)weapon inventory already owned for Mirages 2000,4)experience in French arms.The EFs offer 1)better A2A capability,2)continuous development thanks to the consortium.There are some people in forums proposing Su-XX or F-16 block60,but there are very low possibilities for these.So the scenarios are 1)Rafale then F-35 2)EF then F-35 and lastly a scenario that we don't hear a lot but I believe it can work 1)Rafale then EF .
 

s3kiz

New Member
Dear eliaslar & JackGr:

Thanks for the brief feedback regarding possibilities.

I too have my money on you guys going the following route:

1) 65% EF then F35
2) 35% Rafale then EF

But this is my personal "feeling".

Anyway, would appreciate a lot if you can translate/provide discussions going on in the Greek media about this matter, supporting any of the alternatives.

Looking forward to hearing more from you guys about this, thanks in advance.

Cheers.



PS: eliaslar did the Swedish officers came via bus? and what did they demonstrate if they forgot the Gripens in their "garage" back home?

In Athens, Pilot Olof to Pilot Erik:
"I had a feeling we forgot something when we left Stockholm!!..ohh well, we'll just eat some souflaki, listen to sirtaki, break some plates and leave." :)
 
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eliaslar

New Member
:) i think they came on Air..bus ;) There was not a demonstration of the aircraft but a presentation, like the ones with a computer and some .pdf files on powerpoint.
According to the Greek defence magazine "Stratigiki", the candidates for the new Greek fighter are:

EF-2000 tranche 2
Rafale F3
JAS-39 Gripen
F-35
F-18E/F
Sukhoi Su-35

According to the same magazine and as JackGR said, F-35 doesn't satisfy the demand of the urgent need of aircrafts and so it may be chosen in the future. No comments were made for the F-18 and the J-39, except the one that i refered to about the presentation. And as for the Sukhoi, the magazine refers to it's supperiority over all the candidates but it is stated as an outsider because it is from Russia :)
Also the number of aircrafts to be purchased, as a first banch, is 30 aircrafts.
I also believe on the scenario about Rafales and EF2000. But we have to see what EADS will offer.
Also another program that was put as high priority is the replacement of the P-3 Orions.
According to the other programs. There has been already delivered 30 Leo2A6HEL and there is a program for new SAR helicopters
 

Atilla [TR]

New Member
Ok some few cents here;

@Atilla,

can you explain to me how can Turkey , whose R&D economy is only a little fraction of USA develop a more advanced version of F-35 than USA? Please have some logic.

@ Beleg Economy does not mean anything you could have private and government funding incl external. Plus Turkey can join with Korea and Japan together and build a very good plane. Ohh yeah just to back my claims Sweden has an economy not as good as Turkeys and they build the awesome Gripen. And Turkey I believe have more aerospace engineers, because of larger population.
 

s3kiz

New Member
Dear Atilla;

I believe belegs comment was to your previous post claiming that the Turkish F35s with stealth paint and domestic electronics suite by Aselsan will be better than USA F35s.

As much as I have high confidence, trust and see huge potential in our (Turkish) defence industrys present and future capabilities, such claims are hard to digest on face value, especially when the majority readers of a forum are non-Turks and who might have an out-of-date if not distorted perception of Turkiye.

But I do admire your enthuism and enjoy reading your posts, I too support and hope the best for our defence industry but we have to be realistic.

In support of your statement, high-tech r&d can be made with dedicated teams, stubborn effort on small budgets. But lets accept that things get "perfect with practice" which means experience in a technology gained over years of research, testing and usage is very vital and that is something majority of contries' defence industries including Turkiyes can not compare reasonably against USA.

And your thought on larger population=more aerospace engineers might not be so sound either, dont forget Canada might have a smaller population than us, but I presume they have a higher number of aerospace engineers.

True you can get things researched "cheaper", but in the end experience is the factor that makes the difference, sure the differences in the levels of experience can be closed even surpassed, but that calls for dedication+effort+personnel+money and once again some experience to start with. All these points having its own different weight in the performance of gaining experience thus high-tech lead in an area.

Besides even if one has the lead, it sometimes pays better to play the underdog. *wink wink*

Anyway, I send my condolonces to the families of the 3 Aselsan engineers working on high tech r&d work for the Turkish industry who were found dead and the 6 Turkish nuclear physics scientists that died in a plane crash not too long ago. All suspiciously. Allah knows.

Cheers.
 

s3kiz

New Member
I read the interview, it is very interesting. Was it in Turkish media or international? When all of these happen, then i will be very jealous about you guys! :)
I found a summarised version of the interview listing the Turkish projects mentioned in a Greek blog at:

strategy-geopolitics.blogspot.com/2008/03/blog-post_6964.html

Cheers.
 

Atilla [TR]

New Member
Well I was thinking to make the F-35 better for A2A combat since it's main mission is for bombing, because the U.S uses the F-22 for A2A combat, what I mean is that Turkey can make the F-35 better for A2A then the American version of the F-35 which is meant for bombing.
 
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