Arms race: Greece & Turkey

[Atilla [TR]]

yes F-35 is out of question, but if it is to be bought then there must be an order of F-16's or Mirage 2000's to cover the gap, but as i know the option for 30 more F-16's was cancelled.

I heard the same as well and for some odd reason I do not see Greece buying any Mirage 2000, Rafales at least.

 

[s3kiz]

Also about the new Greek fighter program, in the upcoming months there will be an RfP and the demand will be for 40 aircrafts which will have to be delivered by the end of 2010.

Greek AF already operates F16 Block30-50-52, Mirage 2000-BG-5, F4 and A7 Corsair platforms.

With the selection of a new platform, been either a Eurofighter or Rafale (disregarding the F35 as the signs for such an acquisition are weak for now, and the Russian Su/Mig options no matter how much it has a place in many hearts), the logistics complexities are to be multiple-folded even with a few older platform/s been retired.

The Greek generals in their efforts to “not put all eggs in one basket” to prevent single-source reliance and the eurocentric political aligning against USA is causing a secondary problem, namely the logistics that go with such a varied inventory.

Perhaps the new platform to be selected will pave the way in future to completely overhaul the Greek AF in european aircraft, drifting away from american supplies. Interesting wait on the decision to be made.

Cheers.

 

[s3kiz]

Considering no one has already mentioned it here yet, i'll do so. The Turkish Undersecretariat for Defence Industries has initiated a procurement of 336 Special Purpose Tactical Wheeled Armoured Vehicles (54 Command Vehicles, 108 Sensor Vehicles, 108 Support Vehicles, 36 Radar Vehicles and 30 CBRN Reconnaissance Vehicles).

The following companies received RfP on 07.03.08:
-BMC
-FNSS
-HEMA
-NUROL
-OTOKAR
-UZEL-SINLAK

Cheers.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

S3kiz do you know what Turkey will replace there F-4 with, they will last to 2015 then you cannot upgrade them I have my fingers crossed for F-22's so badly. :turkey

 

[eliaslar]

@s3kiz
Of course logistics will have to do miracles to support all those weapons and that will cause a very big problem. So A-7's as i read, will be put out of order gradually untill 2010, i think HAF and PAF are the only users of A-7 in the world now, forgive me if i am wrong, and only the upgraded F-4's will be in order until 2010-2015. So in the long run the HAF of 2015 will be made up from the new fighter, F-16's, Mirage 2000.
Don't worry my friend Greek generals have all that in mind.

a bit off topic now, what is this story about Turkish constitutional court to ban the AKP?

 

[Atilla [TR]]

a bit off topic now, what is this story about Turkish constitutional court to ban the AKP?

Nothing yet AKP is going crazy, I hope they get closed down with the DTP with them. If they try to do anything to Turkey try to make it an Islamic state then the army will get involved because that is a mandate of the army to protect Turkey secular government, and ideas. I am muslim and I go to the mosque whenever I do not work or go to school on Fridays yet I want the AKP gone.

 

[eliaslar]

Atilla [TR] you may want the AKP gone, but all the others fanatic muslims, because they also exist, how will react to this? if i remember well the AKP had a very good percentage in the elections

 

[Atilla [TR]]

Atilla [TR] you may want the AKP gone, but all the others fanatic muslims, because they also exist, how will react to this? if i remember well the AKP had a very good percentage in the elections

Yes they did but I think a lot of those votes where also from people who are not ultra religous but the AKP has done very good for the economy and the people want this, they do not know what the other parties would want. CHP no one votes for because there leader is not a good leader. MHP no one cares about the nation in there they only care about there own pockets and lately they have been supporting the AKP (which has made me look away from them), same goes for the rest, DYP where good in the early 90's till they got the leader that left a little while ago he use to be a mafia boss they might be getting better soon they are a center right party so nationalist but not religious, so really there are not too many people to vote for.

 

[s3kiz]

@s3kiz

a bit off topic now, what is this story about Turkish constitutional court to ban the AKP?

Its an intricate issue eliaslar, with a few facets to it. But i'll try to make a summary of the matter.

Legally, AKP came to power using democratic means, however the same democratic means AKP came to power are been changed by AKP to further keep them as a regime and prevent other political parties from reaching the top in the future elections by altering the Constituton, regional laws and public engineering, that is AKP is accused of using the power of Government to alter the law and institutions to the benefit of AKP party. So a Republic Court Judge has filed a claim with evidences he thinks proving this to the Constitutional Court to be heard.

Courts like in every country have the right to put penalty or even close political parties that violate the constitution or curropt the judiciary institutions to favor the accused party, its a normal procedure that goes in all democratic countries, including EU.

If i was to add my personal opinion on the matter, AKP with their reign in government for many years seems to have helped Turkiye, with the reduction of inflations, increase of exports etc, however when we look at the fiscal reports it help is comparable to its bad effects, primarily foreign debts have increased, companies have been privatised, not that I'm against privatization, but i only support such an action to be sold to local companies, many companies including financial institutions are been sold to foreigners and very cheaply if i may add, perhaps to the same amount as the sold companies 3 year revenues. Exports are increasing but with an increase of imports, to me a pure success is increasing your exports without having to increase your imports, AKP couldnt/doesnt do that. Another aspect AKP leader Mr. Erdogan is the joint-head of the Greater Middle East Project, part of the New World Order, and I can honeslty say I dont like nwo, it has humanity in the sight as enemy, only concern for it is money/greed, not morals or humanity, not Turks not Greeks.

Anyway, although we find Mr Erdogan is very much supported by foreign governments (he is charizmatic i give him that credit) in the American, European continents and many international press like him, the same people/organizations/thought groups that treat him well internationaly also call him "moderate islam" and thus Turkiye, interesting eh?.

And we all knows whos toy "moderate islam" is........remember nwo crew and the greater mid-east project? (co-headed by Mr Erdogan)

The naive people of Turkiye do not know the nwo and its ambitions and how it creates movements, socially engineers whole nations into puppet regimes for self and world destruction, its like giving a child a lollipop and abducting him. Turkish people are as naive as any other people, so it happens.

Its an intricate game, but whats going on in Turkiye is democracy, juristiction and common sense, and like proven in history, even with some setbacks things get up and go the best way in time. And thats what will happen like it has always in the history.

No rose without a thorne, and Turkiye is a rose garden thus lots of thorns, we may be a naive people but in the end we have become accustomed to it, with 7 thousand years (that we know of) of history and experience we have as a nation.

Anyway, I didnt want eliaslars question to stay unanswered.
So with that done, back to military related issues.

Cheers

 

[s3kiz]

S3kiz do you know what Turkey will replace there F-4 with, they will last to 2015 then you cannot upgrade them I have my fingers crossed for F-22's so badly. :turkey

Atilla considering that F4 are deep penetration bombing jets later taken over by the F16 to some extent with a greater capability of a2a to go with it we can say that F35 will be doing their role.

F16 was what F4 was to a greater extent.

We have both now because F4 still have some breath left in them. So we use both.

But F16 to me is a developet F4

So when the F35s come into play they will replace F16, and F16 will replace F4s.

F22 is what F15 is
F35 is what F16 is
F16 is what F4 was

I highly doubt the USA will release the ban on F22 exports even in 2015, I suspect F22 will see a similar life like the F15, only past mid-life will it be released to allies.

But I suspect Turkiye, if needing an "F22-tier" platform will have many options available to her by that time, not only USA, Europe but also from Korea, Japan, China, Pakistan individual and joint sources.

Cheers.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

@S3kiz like I said there really are not too many options in Turkey for anyone to vote for, the parties I use to like I kind of hate now because they are helping AKP stay in power and they are backing AKP for the religious stuff that is getting unbanned. I am refering to MHP, I like DYP since my I have a very close family member that was a minister in DYP in the early 90's but now Mehmet Agar (mafia boss) is gone and things look like they are getting back together.

 

[s3kiz]

Atilla to me politics is as good as hearsy and gossip, i dont like politics, we need to produce more products, we need to invent new technologies, we need to sell more, we need to increase our wealth, we need to grow bigger.

Not political mumbo-jumbo that only hinders national growth.

I like Mustafa Kemal Ataturks words "Vatanini en cok seven, gorevini en iyi yapandir", so meaningfull and precise.

Look at USA, look at Greece and Turkiye., all the politicians in the world care for are their pockets (im not talking about curroption alone) and their extra-marital affairs .

Forget them, vote for me, vote for people!!! :hehe

Anyway jokes aside, lets go back on to defence matters.

Cheers.

Mod edit:

Good advice. I strongly suggest a return to defence related matters from now on...

AD

 

[eliaslar]

thank you s3kiz about your information, you answered much of the questions i had.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

@S3kiz have you heard more info the the MIlgem project?

 

[eliaslar]

about the MILGEM project, i like it very much as a project. but i am still wondering why you chose to put only one gas-turbine and two diesel engines? I read that this gives a speed of 29knots, even if it's not a low speed, i think that with the size of the ship there could be two gas-turbines, making things realy better.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

about the MILGEM project, i like it very much as a project. but i am still wondering why you chose to put only one gas-turbine and two diesel engines? I read that this gives a speed of 29knots, even if it's not a low speed, i think that with the size of the ship there could be two gas-turbines, making things realy better.

IF it is fast enough why make it heavier and waste more fuel more complicated for only of a fraction of better performance.

 

[orko_8]

about the MILGEM project, i like it very much as a project. but i am still wondering why you chose to put only one gas-turbine and two diesel engines? I read that this gives a speed of 29knots, even if it's not a low speed, i think that with the size of the ship there could be two gas-turbines, making things realy better.

MilGem is not a frigate to be equipped with two LM-2500 gas turbines (plus two diesels). By adding another huge gas turbine, you also add extra weight of several tonnes, plus fuel, plus spares, associated machinery, more extra cost etc. And you get a nice frigate.

Here are some corvette / light frigate designs in the 1,500t - 2,500t displacement range with their main machinery configurations and max speed:

Russia, Project 20380 Steregushchy: ~1,900t max; 2 x gas turbine + 2 x diesels; 27kts

Thailand, Chao Phraya (Type 053HTH): 1,920t max: 4 x MTU 20V 1163TB93 diesels; 30kts

Mexico, Inhauma: 1,970t: 1 x General Electric LM2500 gaz turbine; 2 x MTU 16V 396 TB94 diesels; 27kts

South Korea, Ulsan: 2,180t max: 2 x General Electric LM2500 gas turbine; 2 x MTU 16V 538 TB82 diesels, 34kts

Spain, Descubierta: 1,666t max: 4 x MTU-Bazán 16V 956 TB91 diesels, 25kts

Japan, Yuubari: 1,690t max: 1 x Kawasaki-Rolls Royce Olympus TM3B gas turbine; 1 x Mitsubishi-MAN 6DRV diesel, 25kts

Indonesia, Sigma: 1,700t, 2 x SEMT-Pielstick 20PA6B STC diesels, 28kts.

 

[eliaslar]

to describe a ship as a frigate or a corvette is something complex, so a ship with two gas turbines may have a bigger weight but has other advantages.

also according to the list all the classes you mentioned, except the Russian and the Indonesian ships, are pretty old so things have changed a bit since then.

 

[jedigman]

to describe a ship as a frigate or a corvette is something complex, so a ship with two gas turbines may have a bigger weight but has other advantages.

also according to the list all the classes you mentioned, except the Russian and the Indonesian ships, are pretty old so things have changed a bit since then.

To have two gas turbine engines you need tonnes of fuel, fuel that is expensive. Diesel is Diesel... Much cheaper then the jet fuel used in gas turbines..

So having 2 diesels and one gas its an economic ship to run.

 

[AegisFC]

To have two gas turbine engines you need tonnes of fuel, fuel that is expensive. Diesel is Diesel... Much cheaper then the jet fuel used in gas turbines..

So having 2 diesels and one gas its an economic ship to run.

Gas turbines can run on diesel.