Very very interesting..if it is easy for you to provide us sources on this, preferable in english
thanks in advance,christos
Arms race: Greece & Turkey
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thanks in advance,christos
Official statement of Defence Industry Executve Committee: link
contedicavour
New Member
Btw are there any news on the rumour about the oldest 4 Greek T209s being offered to Egypt ?
cheers
No news on that..i think that it is stucked frozen or cancelled the same as for the case of selling 2 Kortenaers to Pakistan..i ll check and if i get something new i ll inform you
Not for the time being and possibly not for a very long time.
contedicavour
New Member
Thanks ! I'm also wondering how the Greek government is thinking to procede for the tender on the 6 new AAW FFGs : will it run an international procurement competition where the Italian and French FREMMs risk being in competition
lul ) among each other and with the German Type 124 (ownership of Greek shipyards must help I guess) ?Are the US ready to provide SM2 IIIs if the Greeks select Raytheon systems ?
cheers
Thanks ! I'm also wondering how the Greek government is thinking to procede for the tender on the 6 new AAW FFGs : will it run an international procurement competition where the Italian and French FREMMs risk being in competition
Are the US ready to provide SM2 IIIs if the Greeks select Raytheon systems ?
cheers
Accordng to a DCN statement, export FREMM's will be marketed with Aster family and not SM-2/ESSM combination, meaning all efforts will be focused on ster+SMART-L solution. If Greece opts for SM-2, then selection of FREMM will be less likely, or in other words, if Greece selects FREMM as new frigate, this will most probably mean procurement of Aster-15/
as well.
I remember reading the denial of US government selling SM-2's to both Greece and Turkey in different occasions for not to harm the balance between two countries.
contedicavour
New Member
Hmm strange to see that the US are ready to hand over a juicy contract to France (and/or Italy) just because they aren't ready to export SM-2s... while they know that the 2 (NATO) countries can get similar-performance Aster 30 anyway
Just a detail : it's Aster+Herakles (or Empar if Italy wins), not Smart-L. To the best of my knowledge Smart-L isn't even configured to be compatible with Aster at the moment (although it could be adapted if a contract were signed).
cheers
You're right, my bad, I've only mentioned SMART-L, unintendedly neglecting EMPAR/Herakles.Hmm strange to see that the US are ready to hand over a juicy contract to France (and/or Italy) just because they aren't ready to export SM-2s... while they know that the 2 (NATO) countries can get similar-performance Aster 30 anyway
Just a detail : it's Aster+Herakles (or Empar if Italy wins), not Smart-L. To the best of my knowledge Smart-L isn't even configured to be compatible with Aster at the moment (although it could be adapted if a contract were signed).
cheers
By the way, from Jane's Defense Review, Dec 2006, regarding Hellenic Navy's frigate procurement programme: ... It is expected to procure an AAW system based around an advanced multifunction radar, for which the Thales-sourced APAR active phased array radar (coupled with the same company's SMART-L long range three-dimensional radar and Raytheon's Standard Missile SM-2 and ESSM appears to be one of the candidates favored by HN. If the HN insists on this AAW solution as well as on FREMM as the platform, the Thales/Raytheon sensor/fire control/missiles package needs to be integrated with the FREMM design.
Ceyhan will be a focal area of Turkish Navy in the forthcoming years I guess, because of its rapidly increasing strategical value, thanks to being the terminal point of BTC pipeline. Considerable effort has been spending on situational awareness, C4ISR elements as well as a sizeable surface force for maintaining security of maritime lines & interests in Eastern Mediterranean.
Current status of Russian Black Sea Fleet is not well promising. Combat readiness is very low and the fleet has shrunk in terms of both quantity and quality. In order to maintain an effective force with smaller but more modern platforms, Black Sea Fleet desperately needs Project 20380 Steregushchy class corvettes and Kilo / Amur class diesel submarines, I think. Modernization of frigates and comes in the second place.
Turkish Navy has two fleets: Northern and Southern. Northern fleet is responsible of security of Black Sea region while southern is for Aegean & Med. Russian Naval base in Syria may well dictate southern one be more greater in size, but cases like Ceyhan, Active Endeavor, Lebanon already had done this.
contedicavour
New Member
I'd even say Russia has given up on its Black Sea Fleet a long time ago.
All they have left in the Black Sea is the Moskva (a powerful cruiser of the Slava class with SS-N-12 SSM and SA-N-6 SAM), the rest is good for the dustbin : a couple of obsolete Kara CGs, a more or less modernized Kashin and a Krivak that carries Uran SSMs but that is otherwise obsolete. There is only 1 SSK around. Plus the usual old Grisha corvettes, etc.
Besides the Moskva/Slava CG the only serious assets are the SU24s though I guess the Ukraine would require previous knowledge of any mission overflying its airspace (and it does have enough Flankers to patrol its airspace).
cheers
All they have left in the Black Sea is the Moskva (a powerful cruiser of the Slava class with SS-N-12 SSM and SA-N-6 SAM), the rest is good for the dustbin : a couple of obsolete Kara CGs, a more or less modernized Kashin and a Krivak that carries Uran SSMs but that is otherwise obsolete. There is only 1 SSK around. Plus the usual old Grisha corvettes, etc.
Besides the Moskva/Slava CG the only serious assets are the SU24s though I guess the Ukraine would require previous knowledge of any mission overflying its airspace (and it does have enough Flankers to patrol its airspace).
cheers
Undoubtly south fleet is much stronger from the north fleet..My curiosity is to see the strength in numbers and type of vessels consisting the north fleet
Greece placing order for weapons and work on F-16
December 22, 2006 (by Lieven Dewitte) - Lockheed Martin recently has been awarded a $931.3 million contract modification for work on 20 F-16C block 50 aircraft and 10 F-16D block 52 [/color] aircraft under the Peace Xenia IV program.[/u] This contract is additive to a February 2006 contract for $99.7 million.
The initial contract was awarded for the "long lead" requirements only, the notice said. Such items typically include raw materials and tooling.
The latest Pentagon action represents "basically another payment to continue long lead tasks toward production of these airplanes," said Joe Stout, a Lockheed spokesman.
Greece is to take delivery of the new aircraft in 2009. They will supplement the existing Greek Air Force F-16 fleet. Under the government-to-government deal announced last December, Greece had an option for another 10 F-16s, which it turned down on March 15th, 2006.
On December 08, 2006, the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Greece of F-16C/D munitions, as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $104 million. Items requested include:
40 AGM-154-C Joint Standoff Weapons (JSOW). The JSOW-C precision glide bomb incorporates an imaging infrared seeker for high precision, and adds a Broach multi-stage warhead that has both hard target penetration and blast-fragmentation capability. The JSOW glide-bomb is also popular with Greece's rival Turkey;
100 GBU-31 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) GPS/INS guidance Kits;
200 CBU-103 Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD) with FZU-39 Proximity Mechanisms - these are similar to JDAM, but are cluster bombs. The CBU-103 variant is a 1,000 pound bomb with anti-personnel munitions inside. See DID article;
100 Enhanced Paveway II with BLU-109. The BLU-109/B is an improved 2,000-pound-class bomb designed as a penetrator for hardened targets like bunkers. Enhanced Paveway kits add GPS as well as laser guidance to bombs.
136 Enhanced Paveway II with MK-84 Warheads. Mk-84 warheads are conventional 2,000 pound bombs.
Also included are JSOW training missiles, BRU-57/A Smart Rack Launchers, containers, system integration and testing, sensors, missile modifications, fuzes, software development/integration, test sets and support equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical data, maintenance, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor representatives, contractor engineering and technical support services, and other related elements of logistics support.
The principal contractors will be:
Boeing Integrated Defense Systems in Arlington, Virginia (JDAM)
Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control in Orlando, Florida (JSOW, WCMD)
Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, Arizona (Enhanced Paveway)
Peace Xenia IV
Since the cancellation of the billion Eurofighter Typhoon deal, rumours existed whether the Greek government would buy more F-16s instead. In July of 2005 a first glimpse of a new fighter deal was noted. Ultimately, on December 13th, 2005 the Greek government signed a LOA for the delivery of 30 new block 52 F-16s with an option on 10 more. The first batch consists of 20 C-models and 10 D-models.
http://www.f-16.net/news_article2102.html
No more details for the time on this modification for the 30 f16s (20 block 50 C models and 10 block 52+ D models)
December 22, 2006 (by Lieven Dewitte) - Lockheed Martin recently has been awarded a $931.3 million contract modification for work on 20 F-16C block 50 aircraft and 10 F-16D block 52 [/color] aircraft under the Peace Xenia IV program.[/u] This contract is additive to a February 2006 contract for $99.7 million.
The initial contract was awarded for the "long lead" requirements only, the notice said. Such items typically include raw materials and tooling.
The latest Pentagon action represents "basically another payment to continue long lead tasks toward production of these airplanes," said Joe Stout, a Lockheed spokesman.
Greece is to take delivery of the new aircraft in 2009. They will supplement the existing Greek Air Force F-16 fleet. Under the government-to-government deal announced last December, Greece had an option for another 10 F-16s, which it turned down on March 15th, 2006.
On December 08, 2006, the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Greece of F-16C/D munitions, as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $104 million. Items requested include:
40 AGM-154-C Joint Standoff Weapons (JSOW). The JSOW-C precision glide bomb incorporates an imaging infrared seeker for high precision, and adds a Broach multi-stage warhead that has both hard target penetration and blast-fragmentation capability. The JSOW glide-bomb is also popular with Greece's rival Turkey;
100 GBU-31 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) GPS/INS guidance Kits;
200 CBU-103 Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD) with FZU-39 Proximity Mechanisms - these are similar to JDAM, but are cluster bombs. The CBU-103 variant is a 1,000 pound bomb with anti-personnel munitions inside. See DID article;
100 Enhanced Paveway II with BLU-109. The BLU-109/B is an improved 2,000-pound-class bomb designed as a penetrator for hardened targets like bunkers. Enhanced Paveway kits add GPS as well as laser guidance to bombs.
136 Enhanced Paveway II with MK-84 Warheads. Mk-84 warheads are conventional 2,000 pound bombs.
Also included are JSOW training missiles, BRU-57/A Smart Rack Launchers, containers, system integration and testing, sensors, missile modifications, fuzes, software development/integration, test sets and support equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical data, maintenance, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor representatives, contractor engineering and technical support services, and other related elements of logistics support.
The principal contractors will be:
Boeing Integrated Defense Systems in Arlington, Virginia (JDAM)
Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control in Orlando, Florida (JSOW, WCMD)
Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, Arizona (Enhanced Paveway)
Peace Xenia IV
Since the cancellation of the billion Eurofighter Typhoon deal, rumours existed whether the Greek government would buy more F-16s instead. In July of 2005 a first glimpse of a new fighter deal was noted. Ultimately, on December 13th, 2005 the Greek government signed a LOA for the delivery of 30 new block 52 F-16s with an option on 10 more. The first batch consists of 20 C-models and 10 D-models.
http://www.f-16.net/news_article2102.html
No more details for the time on this modification for the 30 f16s (20 block 50 C models and 10 block 52+ D models)
The Black Sea fleet is remains of USSR era, and even then by 80x it was seen by many soviet generals as useless money sinks, good only for show. The reason for that strong opinion is relatively small size of Black Sea: By 80x any force projection could be made by maritime aviation and long-range coastal cruise missiles like Granit and Bazalt. Now, its even more true than before. Small corvet-size patrol ships are all Russia need in Black Sea to defend her interests.
It would certainly save them a ton of money to go to corvette sized ships for BLK. As Ukraine keeps jacking up the rent on her naval facilities and fighting over them it would save the Russian Navy a ton of money and heart ache. It would aslo allow Turkey to dominate the Black Sea.
Dear orko,
This reminds me of the Greek corvette program which had to be abondened for extreme costs. When there are several tested platforms which were designed & developed "around" the SM-2 - ESSM & related sensors package, if Greece goes for customised FREMMs i think we might again see a project which may fail at the end.. Well not that i am complaining..
contedicavour
New Member
DCN has officially refused to customize FREMM with Raytheon sensors and missiles. Logical, the Herakles/Aster/Sylver system is the highest margin item in the whole FREMM project. Besides, since the Greek shipyards would build most or all of the hulls, the whole project's financials are unsustainable for DCN.
What makes me upset is that DCN is screwing up the whole sale. If they had worked jointly with Fincantieri we could have provided a strongly AAW FREMM with EMPAR and Aster15/30 which can compete against SM2/ESSM solutions. DCN's current proposal of Herakles (which can only support Aster15) is doomed to failure because the Greek Navy wants a real AAW ship
cheers
contedicavour
New Member
Agree. A Black Sea squadron with half a dozen Type 22380 corvettes and a few Lada SSKs would be perfect. Btw I wonder what is going on with the 4th Slava cruiser, still in theory 75% completed (a shame that the % hasn't evolved in 4 years
).The older Kashin-class DD and the 2 Kara-class CGs would be perfect museum ships, for instance one in Odessa and one in St Petersburg
cheers
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