Arms race: Greece & Turkey

[beleg]

The radars ordered for the prototype planes are V9.

It is quite clear that the blk 50s will get the v9 mod. The blk 30 will get a limited radar modernisation, since they are never meant to be used for A-G, focusing on A-A and JHMCS. The decision to modernise blk 40s have also been agreed and talks with LM will continiue for 213 F-16 from now on according to Turkish media. It is not clear yet which mode of the radar blk40s will get but IMO its very likely they will get the V9 like the 50s.

Turkish blk30s are the oldest platforms , mostly used for F-16 initial training and will be the first ones to be phased out so its logical to invest less in these relatively weaker platforms.

 

[341-Phalanx]

TuAF will get 180 APG-68(V9) upgrade kits until 2013.

 

[beleg]

TuAF will get 180 APG-68(V9) upgrade kits until 2013.

That leaves out the F-16 blk30s as expected. These planes are the heaviest used of all the F-16 platforms we have since they are in the OCU sqs. They are expected to be phased out after the F-4s.

 

[fantasma]

Turkey To Scrap Attack Helicopter Contest

By BURAK EGE BEKDIL, ANKARA

Turkey’s government and military authorities are preparing to cancel a long-delayed competition for the procurement of scores of attack helicopters, according to senior procurement officials familiar.
One of the officials said that the top government committee that oversees procurement is expected formally to scrap the bidding during its December meeting “due to the failure of the existing bidders in meeting the military’s requirements.” The Defense Industry Executive Committee is chaired by the prime minister and includes the defense minister, the chief of the military’s general staff and head of the defense procurement office.
“None of the short-listed solutions fully satisfies the end user,” the military, the official said Nov. 28. “We may renew the competition or go for an off-the-shelf purchase. That’s unknown for the moment.”
Turkey earlier short-listed AgustaWestland, Cascina Costa, Italy, maker of the A-129 Mangusta International; and Denel Aviation, Pretoria, South Africa, maker of the Rooivalk, for the attack helicoper deal.
The contract for 30 gunships, estimated at an initial $1.5 billion, but Turkey ultimately may buy more than 90 helicopters.
Chicago-based Boeing has proposed a solution outside the competition, offering to sell Turkey its AH-64D Apache Longbow in a direct sale.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2386585&C=europe

 

[swerve]

...
One of the officials said that the top government committee that oversees procurement is expected formally to scrap the bidding during its December meeting “due to the failure of the existing bidders in meeting the military’s requirements.”
...
“None of the short-listed solutions fully satisfies the end user,” the military, the official said Nov. 28. “We may renew the competition or go for an off-the-shelf purchase. That’s unknown for the moment.”

So nothing is preferable to 90%, eh? Bloody stupid. If there isn't anything that "fully satisfies the end user”, then the end user is asking the impossible. Better to have 90% of what you want than 0%.

 

[beleg]

The latest offer from Boeing is boiling the tender. army has been requesting to include at least one American chopper in the contest but this was not possible due to American laws. Tigre was disqualified due to technical(!!!) reasons. Now if Roovivalk which can technically do the same job with an AH-64 w/o the longbow radar is also disqualified with the same reason, i think it will be clear that Army has decided to go for off the shelf Apache purchase.. Pity for the lost 10 years is thats the case..

 

[beleg]

Meanwhile this is also very interesting;

Eurofighter Offers Turkey Fighter Deal With $9B Work Share

By BURAK EGE BEKDIL

ANKARA
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2389052&C=europe

The four-European-nation Eurofighter consortium, maker of the Typhoon fighter aircraft, has offered Turkey a new industrial participation package worth $9 billion, company officials said.

The proposal comes at a time when Turkey is seen favoring the Typhoon’s U.S. rival, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). The competitors aim to win an approximately $12 billion Turkish contract for more than 100 new-generation fighters.

Eurofighter officials said that the group is offering Turkey “equal partnership with equal voting rights as other member nations have,” and a $9 billion work share for its local defense industry if the Ankara government decides to buy 120 fighters, a $6 billion work share for 80 aircraft and a $3.2 billion work share for 40 aircraft.

The group pledges to deliver the first batch of aircraft by 2010. It also offers Turkey access to source codes and other critical technology, an enhancement package, full capability to repair the aircraft in service and the authority to use the aircraft anywhere, anytime under Turkish military doctrine.

A Eurofighter official told DefenseNews.com Nov. 29 that the consortium is offering Turkey a next-generation, twin-engine aircraft at the price of an F-16 fighter, plus a nearly $2.5 billion industrial participation for a batch of 30 aircraft.

Recently, the U.S. Congress approved the sale of 30 F-16 jets to Turkey in a $2.9 billion deal “if all options are exercised.”

Eurofighter says the Typhoon is fully compatible with the F-35.
“The Typhoon is the best-selling air-dominance fighter and the JSF is the best-selling ground-support fighter,” the official said. “With JSF and F-16, Turkey will have a next-generation ground-support aircraft and an old-generation air superiority fighter not capable to counter the potential threat arising in the next 10, 20, 30 years. Turkey needs a next-generation, double-platform solution for its future air requirements.”
Turkey’s military and procurement officials earlier signaled that they would probably go for the F-16s as a stop-gap solution and the F-35 for longer-term requirements. Turkey is a partner in the Lockheed Martin-led JSF program’s development phase, having invested $175 million. Ankara must decide whether it will join the program’s production phase by the end of the year.

Eurofighter is to build 620 aircraft for its member states — Germany, Italy, Spain and Britain — plus 18 for Austria. The Royal Saudi Air Force recently selected the Typhoon for a deal involving 72 aircraft. In addition, Turkey, Greece, Japan, Switzerland, Denmark and Norway have been considering the Typhoon.

Although its not clear how we will have equal stuff when the project has already commenced and in full production phase , i must admit EADS sales people know how to talk to Turks. They say everything that we would want to hear .. I have strong doubts how they would commence tho if it was reality. The critical part of the article is that it doesnt mention the price for each offer but just for industrial participation :..

Still it might be a good beginning for the EF-2000...

 

[fantasma]

Meanwhile this is also very interesting;




Although its not clear how we will have equal stuff when the project has already commenced and in full production phase , i must admit EADS sales people know how to talk to Turks. They say everything that we would want to hear .. I have strong doubts how they would commence tho if it was reality. The critical part of the article is that it doesnt mention the price for each offer but just for industrial participation :..

Still it might be a good beginning for the EF-2000...

Dear Beleg

I think this offer is trully far beyond the word "extraordinary"..a superb offer that Turkey should examine seriously...i dont think Turkey could find a better offer..still it is difficult to me for Turkey to go for 120 EFA though there is a commitment and a level 3 partner to JSF, maybe 40-60 airframes are a possible figure post 2015 for TR III..time is close to see the final decision

 

[beleg]

Dear Fantasma,
Its politically, technically and economically impossible for Turkey to go for 120 EF-2000s. However as you pointed its a posibility to have 2-4 sqs of EF-2000 at a later time when political & economical climate is more suitable

Recently after the F-16 order the amount of articles that advocate in cancelling F-16 order in favour of EF-2000 has increased tremendously.. The EF-2000 that has been fighting F-35 in the beginning is now fighting F-16.. Irony..

 

[fantasma]

30/09/2006 Turkey requested a possible sale of 30 f-16s, engines, missiles, etc value of 2.9 billion dollars..you mean that there is a chance that Turkey may scrap this deal and going for the EFA?

 

[beleg]

I dont mean we will.. But there are some articles that suggest it. And SSM Murad BAYAR said in an interview that the F-16 deal is not signed, although approved by congress there were issues needed to be solved, i.e price and industrial participation package. If the results are not satisfying the deal maybe cancelled and looked for EF-2000.. However i was finding this highly unlikely until the last week when we first heard about Austrian and then the Saudi questioning of EF-2000 orders.. Now who knows.. Still the political climate today is not in favour of any European product

One EADS representative (BAE) had complained to me in IDEF2005 that their platform was perfect, they wanted to sell their plane and Airforce is interested in the platform, but it was the politics and European politicians that reduce the chances of Eurofighter at various contests.. Maybe he was right afterall..

 

[fantasma]

Boeing announces further delay to Australia's Wedgetail aircraft

By Jon Grevatt Jane's Asia-Pacific Industry Reporter

Australia's AUD3.6 billion (USD2.71 billion) Wedgetail Airborne Early Warning and Control aircraft project has been further delayed, the Australian Department of Defence (DoD) has told Jane's.

The aircraft were initially due for delivery in November but in June 2006 programme prime contractor Boeing said all six aircraft would be delivered "by the end of 2008", citing integration issues with certain hardware and software components as the causes of the delay.

The Australian DoD has said that it now expects delivery of the first two aircraft in early 2009 as Boeing's recovery plan was still not complete.

A DoD spokesman told Jane's that some of the original problems with the aircraft remain: "When Boeing announced the schedule delay in June 2006, the company cited 'problems associated with: subsystem integration; hardware availability; radar and ESM maturity; and aircraft modification' as the causes of the delay [and] this remains the c

i guess all this might affect and the deliveries of the Turkish Wedgetail..

 

[RubiconNZ]

Makes you wonder why the South Koreans signed on as well, it must be a awesome system if you buy something thats facing a 4 year delay for its launch customer.

 

[beleg]

Beoing and its delays :lul

What about Greek Erieyes? HAF still hasnt officially accepted them too. Is there any problems with the system similar to MESA?

 

[fantasma]

Beoing and its delays :lul

What about Greek Erieyes? HAF still hasnt officially accepted them too. Is there any problems with the system similar to MESA?

As far as i know Greek Erieyes will be accepted by HAF till midst of 2007..Only God knows when we will see them operational..:unknown

 

[beleg]

Unlike MESA , Erieye is already in use by several airforces.So I wonder what the problem is, because the platforms have been delivered quite a long time ago.

 

[fantasma]

Technical problems mainly has to do with the links of the aircraft..im searching it but nothing yet specific..the only certain is, as i found, official deliveries will take place earlier from September 2007

 

[beleg]

Ah the famous Link16 issue..

Btw there is a flash news on the ATAK helicopter tender. An investigation is started on the deal. There is evidence that someone inside Def. Ministry. has been leaking information to one of the contenders. Things keep getting more interesting.

This is the second leak scandal after the one with French Eryx inside Min. of Defence.. :lul

 

[rrrtx]

why an arms race?

I know I'm a little late to the party here but I am curious why Greece and Turkey are engaged in an arms race at all. I'm aware of previous differences over Cyprus. I am not now clear on why either country presents a security threat to the other right now.

 

[Big-E]

I know I'm a little late to the party here but I am curious why Greece and Turkey are engaged in an arms race at all. I'm aware of previous differences over Cyprus. I am not now clear on why either country presents a security threat to the other right now.

For some reason Turkey feels threatened and feels she needs an insane military. All Greece can do is react.