Arms race: Greece & Turkey

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contedicavour

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Thanks for the news.
I wonder how one can compare an Apache (especially the "D" Longbow version) with a Rooivalk or a Mangusta... the birds aren't in the same class in terms of prices and capabilities. If the Turkish army is upset with the shortlisted helos, it means that the tender wasn't specific enough. And by the way, the Turkish armed forces may end up with half the number they would wish to order, unless the US supplies the birds with heavy discounts (I'm not 100% familiar with the FMS rules but if it something like 30 year mortgage at 0% interest :rolleyes: well then we know who wins)

cheers
 
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beleg

New Member
If i were you i wouldnt trust the analysis of that article and the authors with all my heart.. Their last article from 3 months ago was implying that Tiger was the favorite..Where is Tiger today?

It is not a secret that KKK(Land Forces Command) wants Apache and after the recent offer by Boeing to sell AH-64D with MMW Longbos radar for 32mio$ , i must admit they do have a strong chance.

SSM Murad Bayar has said earlier this year that if either of the 2 short-listed candidates cannot provide what we asked for, Apache is still on the list as B plan. So even thogh Boeing is not one of the candidates it is still being used against Denel and Agusta as a wildcard.

I personally hope to see Denel win this contract since there is a multitude of areas we can co-operate, especially in development of a MMW radar for the helo, joint munnitions, SAMs as an offset of this program and the helo is in the same class with Apache . Mind you the Turkish version of selected helo will fly with a locally designed Mission & flight computer and avionics designed by Turkish defence industry.. The computer is currently being tested on an AH-1. So even tho Boeing might get a limited order because of pressure from soldiers, i am quite positive that SSM will go on with orders for one of the shortlisted candidates.

Btw congress have approved the sales of 30 F-16 blk50+ aircraft to Turkey.I think we will soon see the agreement finalise.
 
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fantasma

New Member
According to Zaman article today Turkey will finalize her decision for 30 Attack helos (+20 options)

Turkey to Announce Attack Helicopter Deal Today
By Cihan News Agency
Tuesday, October 17, 2006
zaman.com


Turkey is to announce the result of its helicopter tender, which has been followed carefully by international defense industry giants.

The tender, which is worth at least $1.5 billion dollars, will top the Turkish Defense Industry Executive Committee meeting to be headed by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan in Ankara today.

The Committee is to decide on either Italian AgustaWestland's or South African Denel's proposal for the attack helicopter deal.

The contract is for the co-production of 30 helicopters with an option for 20 more.

Turkish authorities had cancelled a previous tender in 2004 when a deal for US Bell Textron's King Cobra collapsed due to price, technology transfer, and licensing problems.

In June, Turkey short-listed the Italian and South African companies for a $2 billion dollar attack helicopter deal in a Defense Industry Executive Committee meeting.

Eurocopter of France and the Russian Kamov were eliminated from the tender.


For further information please visit http://www.cihannews.com
 
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beleg

New Member
Dear Fantasma.
Actually thats old news. Due to the illness of our PM the SSIK meeting was cancelled , thus the decision has been once again delayed until an un-announced date. However we can safely assume it will be a close date.

The requirement for the first phase of the project is for 90 helicopters. However the total requirement maybe up to 150 :)confused:) according to what MoD said a few days ago. I hope he knows what he is saying..

But from the beginning this project has been for 90 helicopters which would be built in batches of 30+20+20+20. The first phase will cover 50 (30+20) platforms.
 
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fantasma

New Member
To say the truth i was a little a bit confused..at first new about 150 helos then dropped to 90 and then i heard for 30+20 options..thus thought that the ceiling would be 50 helos..thanks for info..now to the project of the next generation aircraft the "in.gr" website refers to the issue saying that there are two tendences..a)the whole package to go on JSF b) to divide the procurement on JSF and Eurofighter in an analogy 80/40 (120 airframes)
 
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beleg

New Member
I think what is said in the in.gr site is basicly true. The requirement is 100-120 airframes, this might be split up between 2 platforms or dedicated to F-35 only. I find the second one much more likely. If EF-2000 is purchased, imo it will be a highly political move. Turkish pilots have flown with EF-2000 and its very interesting that there was no comment on their experience. This is totally opposite the one with Roovivalk for instance, the pilots that tested the chopper and did live shots commented very positively about the platform which caused it to finish as the primary candidate for ATAK tender.

However we must not forget that SSM has requested detailed information on industrial and economical aspects of an EF-2000 order for 40-80 platforms if i recall the numbers correctly.

We still have to wait a little longer before a decision is made. I think if the requirement for JSF is announced less than 100 (this is the needed amount to replace the F-4 fleet 1-1) we can expect a further new generation aircraft order after or same time with Greece's FCA selection.
 
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fantasma

New Member
I guess if decision for EFA from Greece or Turkey for Eurofighter comes until 2009-2010 will be for tranche 2 with CAPTOR Radar..here is a table of the radar abilities of EFA (TRANCHE 2 and 3) f-35 and for comparison Mirage 2000-5 and F-16 block 52+

CAPTOR（EF-2000 Tranch 1 and 2）：
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 12 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 22 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 70 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 124 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 185 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 220 km+

CAESAR AESA（EF-2000 Tranch3, post-2015 with 1,500 T/Rs）：
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 18~21 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 32~38 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 104~122 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 185~216 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 278~324 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 330~385 km+

APG-81 AESA（F-35A/B/C）：
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 16 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 28 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 90 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 160 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 240 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 285 km+



APG-68 V9（F-16 C/D/I）and RDY-2（M2000-5MK2 and -9）：
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 4~5 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 8~9 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 25~30 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 46~54 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 66~80 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 78~95 km+

if a procurement for EFA comes now will be more a political one for both countries..Greece has a need in the current EMPAE for 40 airframes 3.2 billion euros and on the next Empae 4.75 billion euros for aircrafts in order to counterbalance a possible threat from JSF..a total 7.95 billion euros (more than 9 billion dollars, turkish project is for 10 billion dollars).
 
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beleg

New Member
More details surfaced on the F-16 deal.. S&H magazine reports that 14 C and 16 D models will be purchased and the airplanes will come with CFTs..

We can safely assume that bulk of the new D models will form a new strike squadron , while the rest will be distributed amond other sqs while the CCIP is commencing.
 
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fantasma

New Member
Turkey is another one step closer for the procurement of the 10 mn dollar package to be headed exclusively on the JSF..Turkish Airforce has selected it over Typhoon..now it remains the approval of the political leadership..

F-35 Lightning II News
Turkey opts for F-35 over Typhoon

October 25, 2006 (by Lieven Dewitte) - Turkey's Air Force has selected the F-35 Lightning II, over Europe's Eurofighter Typhoon for the NATO nation's 15-year, $10 billion program to buy about 100 new-generation fighter aircraft, Turkish procurement and military officials said.

The decision is not final yet as the Air Force is not the sole authority for a final decision. However, since its position is dominant and backed by the powerful General Staff, we can consider this move as a fact.

In the past few months, the selection process had been narrowed down to a choice between buying all F-35s and a mixed buy of the F-35s and Typhoons.

But the Air Force, whose fighter fleet is exclusively of U.S. design and which follows a strong American tradition, has apparently opted for an all-F-35 Lightning II solution now.

Turkish Defense Minister Vecdi Gonul and procurement chief Murad Bayar are due to meet with U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Gordon England, deputy defense secretary, and other top U.S. defense officials in Washington Oct. 30. They will then visit the Lockheed Martin F-35 plant in Fort Worth, Texas, the officials said.

The Turkish team and their U.S. counterparts are expected to discuss final details for the planned deal.

A formal announcement on the fighter selection is expected in December.

The new-generation fighter program, Turkey's largest defense procurement project, is designed to replace the Air Force's aging F-16 and F-4E aircraft starting beginning in the mid-2010s.
 
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contedicavour

New Member
fantasma said:
Turkey is another one step closer for the procurement of the 10 mn dollar package to be headed exclusively on the JSF..Turkish Airforce has selected it over Typhoon..now it remains the approval of the political leadership..

F-35 Lightning II News
Turkey opts for F-35 over Typhoon

October 25, 2006 (by Lieven Dewitte) - Turkey's Air Force has selected the F-35 Lightning II, over Europe's Eurofighter Typhoon for the NATO nation's 15-year, $10 billion program to buy about 100 new-generation fighter aircraft, Turkish procurement and military officials said.

The decision is not final yet as the Air Force is not the sole authority for a final decision. However, since its position is dominant and backed by the powerful General Staff, we can consider this move as a fact.

In the past few months, the selection process had been narrowed down to a choice between buying all F-35s and a mixed buy of the F-35s and Typhoons.

But the Air Force, whose fighter fleet is exclusively of U.S. design and which follows a strong American tradition, has apparently opted for an all-F-35 Lightning II solution now.

Turkish Defense Minister Vecdi Gonul and procurement chief Murad Bayar are due to meet with U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Gordon England, deputy defense secretary, and other top U.S. defense officials in Washington Oct. 30. They will then visit the Lockheed Martin F-35 plant in Fort Worth, Texas, the officials said.

The Turkish team and their U.S. counterparts are expected to discuss final details for the planned deal.

A formal announcement on the fighter selection is expected in December.

The new-generation fighter program, Turkey's largest defense procurement project, is designed to replace the Air Force's aging F-16 and F-4E aircraft starting beginning in the mid-2010s.
Click to expand...
OK... so who builds the Turkish F35s ? Local assembly line ? Or do we get to assemble them in Cameri (Italy) ?

cheers
 
C

chrisrobsoar

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
@fantasma

Where did you get your range vs RCS data? Is this detection range or tracking range?

The data follows the 4th power law OK, but the ranges quoted appear to be much too low. Could there have been some confusion between km and nm?

The RDY (1 not 2) fitted to some of the French 2000-5 has a detection range of 100km against a 1m2 target.

Captor Tranch 1 can detect 1m2 targets well over 100nm, nearly double what you suggest. Tranch 2 has better performance than Tranch 1 due to improved processing resulting slightly greater maximum range, but much better tracking in difficult clutter conditions.

CAESAR is a prototype. Captor Tranch 3 will have more and better T/R Modules and as a result better performance.

However with a much lower RCS (clean) 0.0015m2 the F-35 would detect a Typhoon with a RCS (clean) 0.1m2 at much greater range than the Typhoon could detect the F-35.

This of course assumes a frontal engagement without the assistance of AWAC etc and clean airframes.

The F-35 can carry a lot of fuel without resorting to external tanks (and hence loss of stealth); in this configuration a significant amount of weapons can be carried.

Flying clean Greek Typhoons against F-35 operated by Turkey would be an interesting exercise; fun to try as a model, but hopefully not for real.

Chris
 
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contedicavour

New Member
A few days ago our vice-minister of Defence, Forcieri, was in Athens to discuss with his Greek colleague joint defence and industry procurement plans. FREMM and M346 advanced trainers were discussed in detail.
Do you have any news from the Greek press of the outcome of the meeting ?

cheers
 
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beleg

New Member
There are some news after the visit of MoD Vecdi GONUL to USA.

The S-70B ASW helo deal which was stalled due to the problems with choice funds is overcome and Turkey is buying 17 Seahawk helos to support it existing 7. The project is going to be funded by funds of SSM.

Turkey has decided to buy 100 F-35 initial deliveries beginning around 2014. the total cost of the project is estimated about 12bn$ and the local induestry will get a workshare of around 5bn$.

The sources claim Airforce is against purchase of EF-2000 for several reasons, whilie politicians dont rule out an order of the plane, saying that it is still possible that Turkey might order Eurofighter.
 
G

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Worth noting that the air defense variant is becoming staple in the reports.

Armaris Signs Agreement with Elefis to Sell FREMMs to Greece

(Source: MerEtMarines.com; issued Oct. 31, 2006)
(Issued in French only; translation by defense-aerospace.com)

Armaris, the joint subsidiary of DCN and Thales tasked with export and cooperation programs, has signed an agreement with the Greek Elefis shipyard. The team will submit a joint French-Greek proposal to the Greek Navy’s future frigate acquisition program.

In July, Athens approved a five-year defense procurement plan which includes new-generation naval ships. The European FREMM multi-mission frigate, jointly developed by France and Italy, has been offered to the Greek government. These new frigates would replace the ten Kortenaer-class frigates, which originally entered service with the Dutch navy between 1978 and 1983, and were subsequently acquired by the Greek Navy in the 1990s.

To date, France and Italy have ordered ten FREMMs, and have options on an additional 17 ships. The modular construction of these ships, which will be built in different versions (ASW, land attack, air-defense), will likely make them attractive to export customers, especially as their unit price will be low (about 400 million euros), while their small crews (108 officers and ratings for a 6,000-tonne ship) will allow naval forces to cut payroll and related operating costs.

-ends-

defense-aerospace.com
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B

beleg

New Member
Meanwhile Turkey keeps ordering new armament for her F-16 fleet which soon will start to go under modernisation similar to US CCIP.

This munition will add enchanced A-G anti armor capabilities to TuAFs strike squadrons.

Textron Systems gets contract from U.S. Air Force

Textron Systems Corp. said it has received a foreign military sale contract from the U.S. Air Force, for the sale of the sensor fuzed weapon to the Turkish Air Force.

The sale of the weapon, also known as CBU-105, will equip the Turkish Air Force F-16 with a smart weapon able to destroy multiple moving or stationary land and maritime threats, with "minimum collateral damage," Textron Systems said.

"We are seeing strong international interest in this very versatile weapon since its impressive debut in Operation Iraqi Freedom," Tom Harrington, vice president of airborne products at Textron Systems, said in a news release. "Working together with the U.S. Air Force, Textron Systems is quite pleased to provide the Turkish Air Force with this powerful and proven weapon system."

Textron Systems serves the global aerospace and defense industries. It is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Avco Corp., which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Providence-based Textron Inc.

Current story link:
http://www.pbn.com/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/123423
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F

fantasma

New Member
I do not remember about the radar of the f16s which will be upgrated to CCIP standard..it is going to be the AN/APG-68(V)9 or the previous version?
thanks in advance
 
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