Arms race: Greece & Turkey

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fantasma

New Member
Released in "www.in.gr" the info that General Yasar Buyukanit who succeded General Ozgiok gave an interview to the turkish defense magazine "Savunma ve Havacilik" saying that they are planning to cut down Land Forces by 20-30% to the next yrs according to their modernisation plan called "Force 2014". If any of our mates has something more info to provide please do.
Thanks in advance, Chris
 

beleg

New Member
Dear fantasma
Actually this is quite an old news. There has been serious modernisations both ongoing and planned which will increase the effectiveness of the Army while reducing the numbers. Althouh i have not read the full article which will be published in this months Defence & Aerospace mag. Gen Büyükanıt speaks about reducing the personelle of the Armed forces by %30 while increasing its firepower & mobility by state ofthe art equipment.

Unfortunately Turkish Army has been able to acquire state of the art equipment only recently, due to several problems. Artillary is receiving modern SPHs and towed guns, Armored units are receving gap fillers (leo2a4) until first Turkish Tank rolls out of factories in the next decade, Mech Infantry brigades have received ACV-300 based IFVs and AAPCs, ATAK II is about to be concluded, A-A abilities of brigades will be seriously incresed by ongoing A-A platforms being acquired/designed (Atilgan,Zipkin,SP-AA) and most important of all the investments made for the network centric battlefield abilites have started to bear their fruits.

All of these will reduce the need to have a huge armed force.


The contract for SLAM-ER is about to be signed and the cost is 130 mio $s funded through FMS. After JSOW (100 AGM-154C) this is the second major AA stand off weapon acquired in CCIP project.
 

fantasma

New Member
Turkey to raise defends funds over the next decade after a silence due to the 2000 economic crisis. Economy seems more stable and capable to support major scale programs. I guess the same will see and on the western Aegean coast. Here is an article from a turkish newspaper.

Ankara/Washington – TDN Defense Desk


"Multiple security threats surrounding Turkey, both conventional and asymmetrical, may soon force Turkey's military, government and procurement officials to rethink the country's defense budget.

A top security official said that Ankara will need to increase the budget for defense acquisitions in the near future to challenge mounting security threats in this part of the world.

“There are increasing threats of all kinds, including an increasing need to contribute to international missions and a simultaneous need to modernize NATO's second largest army and compensate for weaknesses, such as missile defense. That requires a larger budget,” the official said.

These words echo what Turkey's new military chief, Army Gen. Yasar Buyukanit said during a military ceremony on Aug. 30: “We face both symmetrical and asymmetrical threats.”

Turkey, which neighbors Syria, Iraq and Iran in the south and east and traditional rival Greece in the west, thinks the turmoil in Iraq, Tehran's nuclear ambitions and the increasing tension between Damascus and Washington pose serious security threats.

The National Security Council's white paper on security threats mentions all of these problematic areas as well as asymmetrical risks (separatist and Islamic fundamentalist terror) as primary threats against Turkey. Since the paper was endorsed by the government earlier this year, the situation has deteriorated in Turkey's southern and eastern neighbors but and also in the Middle East as a whole since Israel's offensive into Lebanese territory.

"In light of the increasing threats in Turkey's region, the tendency on the part of our government and our military is to spend more for defense in the coming years, and we have huge acquisition programs awaiting decision in the short and medium-term," said one senior procurement official.

"Turkey's financial situation is stable, and we can afford to spend more on defense over the next decade, hopefully," said the official. Exact figures for future spending budgets were not clear, but a military official said that the Armed Forces would demand a larger budget for 2007 and onwards in order to finance several large-scale procurement programs. The budget for 2007 will be drafted by the government in October.

Turkey presently spends more than $3.7 billion for defense procurement annually. The Defense Ministry spends about $2.7 billion, or about one-third of its entire budget, for new equipment and modernization programs. That figure excludes around $1 billion extra revenue from an annual defense industry support fund which collects receipts through indirect taxes and levies on alcohol, tobacco and lottery ticket sales.

In some cases, the Treasury also contributes funds for defense, said the same procurement official. But since Turkey's budgetary spending is subject to International Monetary Fund (IMF) consent due to a stand-by loan agreement, the Treasury's financing of defense programs may be limited to a few high-priority contracts.

Turkey's top defense programs over the next 15 years will include the procurement of nearly 100 new generation fighter aircraft worth some $10 billion. The contenders are the U.S.-led F-35 JSF Lightning II and Europe's Eurofighter Typhoon.

Turkey is due to decide on its choice before year end, and Defense Industry Undersecretary Murad Bayar, whose office, the Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM), oversees procurement, has said that the country will buy "only the JSF, only the Eurofighter or a combination of both." Turkey's government is expected to make a decision before the end of this year.

Other programs include the co-production of an initial batch of 30 attack helicopters, the building and launching of the country's first military satellite and the acquisition of 45 basic jet trainers. Other acquisitions include 12 marine helicopters and 32 utility helicopters. There will also be several other naval, electronics, electronic warfare, unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), radar and communications programs.

One key program Turkey only recently has launched is the purchase of a medium-range missile defense system consisting of at least four launchers, radars and related equipment and services. Recently, the government has given its nod for Treasury-backed financing of the approximately $1 billion program.

SSM will soon launch a formal bidding, and the two top contenders will include Lockheed Martin's Patriot Advanced Capability-3 (PAC-3) system and Russia's rival S300 and S400 systems. Procurement officials said Turkey also plans to buy a second system, but this time through co-production.

"Turkey unofficially admits that it sees Iran's surface-to-surface missiles as a threat, but it lacks proper missile defenses," said a defense analyst in Ankara. "Its eventual decision to buy such systems is a belated one. But better late than never"
 

Big-E

Banned Member
the Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM), oversees procurement, has said that the country will buy "only the JSF, only the Eurofighter or a combination of both."

Guess he couldn't make up his mind... :drunk1
 

orko_8

New Member
fantasma said:
Are the FREMMS equipped with AA ASTER 30 with a range of 120KM??
As far as I know, no. AAW is based on two layers, inner layer being 76mm guns while outer layer combination of Aster15 SAM + EMPAR radar.

VLS launchers are Slyver A43, while A70 installation is also possible.
 

fantasma

New Member
Dear Orko 8
As i did a little google search i found a site "http://navy-matters.beedall.com/mvd.htm" where it says that initialy the ships will be equipped with ASTER 15 (30KM range) and later with the ASTER 30 (over 100km range).
 

orko_8

New Member
fantasma said:
Dear Orko 8
As i did a little google search i found a site "http://navy-matters.beedall.com/mvd.htm" where it says that initialy the ships will be equipped with ASTER 15 (30KM range) and later with the ASTER 30 (over 100km range).
Hmm that's news to me, since I was referring to a brochure (an early one maybe?). Anyway, thanks for the update
 

contedicavour

New Member
Guys, the FREMMs can take Sylver A50 or A70 VLS, hence Aster 30 with 120km range. Then it is up to the customer to request whether they want the system or not.
As I stated elsewhere, the Italian FREMMs have EMPARs and at least one of the 2 16-cell VLS will be A50 (or A70 if we take SCALP naval). So if Greece for example wanted to buy the same version of FREMM, it will be able to field a real AAW FFG.

cheers
 

fantasma

New Member
contedicavour said:
Guys, the FREMMs can take Sylver A50 or A70 VLS, hence Aster 30 with 120km range. Then it is up to the customer to request whether they want the system or not.
As I stated elsewhere, the Italian FREMMs have EMPARs and at least one of the 2 16-cell VLS will be A50 (or A70 if we take SCALP naval). So if Greece for example wanted to buy the same version of FREMM, it will be able to field a real AAW FFG.

cheers
Dear Contedicavour knowing the interest of Greece for 6 new build frigates the price of an AAW FFG FREMMs is it logical?? Without having any data just speculating i think that if Greece goes for the FREMMs in a AAW configuration the number Greece can purchase is 4.
 

contedicavour

New Member
fantasma said:
Dear Contedicavour knowing the interest of Greece for 6 new build frigates the price of an AAW FFG FREMMs is it logical?? Without having any data just speculating i think that if Greece goes for the FREMMs in a AAW configuration the number Greece can purchase is 4.
Each FREMM costs approx 700 million euro with the appropriate EMPAR radar. You would probably have to add another 100 million to equip it with Aster-30.

cheers
 

beleg

New Member
And how would that fit in the budget of Greek Navy? Imo it is more likely for Greece to get a cheaper multipurpose frigate.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
contedicavour said:
Each FREMM costs approx 700 million euro with the appropriate EMPAR radar. You would probably have to add another 100 million to equip it with Aster-30.

cheers
A Horizon costs M800 €, whilst the Herakles equipped FREMM comes in at approx. M400 €. The DCN claim they can reduce that to M280 € with a build rate of 3 per 2 years.

The rationale behind building a FREMM AAW derivative of the Horizon is exactly this difference in cost.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Grand Danois said:
A Horizon costs M800 €, whilst the Herakles equipped FREMM comes in at approx. M400 €. The DCN claim they can reduce that to M280 € with a build rate of 3 per 2 years.

The rationale behind building a FREMM AAW derivative of the Horizon is exactly this difference in cost.
Well I did add R&D and other fixed costs into the price tag (after all why should Italian and French FREMMs cost more than export ones ;) just kidding...) and that's why I'm closer to 700M€ for an AAW version of FREMM. By AAW version I mean 2 x 16 Sylver A50 or A70 launchers, EMPAR (Herakles is too short ranged to guide Aster 30s).
I remain sceptical of DCN's ability to reduce costs below 300M€ since in 2000 DCN was still confortably committing unitary Horizon costs of 600M€ and now we are way beyond 800M€ (with equipment fitted). Anyway, let's see...

cheers
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
contedicavour said:
Well I did add R&D and other fixed costs into the price tag (after all why should Italian and French FREMMs cost more than export ones ;) just kidding...) and that's why I'm closer to 700M€ for an AAW version of FREMM. By AAW version I mean 2 x 16 Sylver A50 or A70 launchers, EMPAR (Herakles is too short ranged to guide Aster 30s).
I remain sceptical of DCN's ability to reduce costs below 300M€ since in 2000 DCN was still confortably committing unitary Horizon costs of 600M€ and now we are way beyond 800M€ (with equipment fitted). Anyway, let's see...

cheers
I don't think they will get below M300 € either, but still enough of a difference.

Agree. Replace Herakles with Empar, PAAMS C2 + Aster 30/15 and you're there. Is 32 cells the max number of Sylver cells on a FREMM or can they take an additional 16 ?
 

contedicavour

New Member
Grand Danois said:
I don't think they will get below M300 € either, but still enough of a difference.

Agree. Replace Herakles with Empar, PAAMS C2 + Aster 30/15 and you're there. Is 32 cells the max number of Sylver cells on a FREMM or can they take an additional 16 ?
There is enough space for 48 VLS cells (16 max are aft).
Just as the horizons could take in theory 4x16 = 64 VLS cells, though I doubt we'll ever see that materialize.

cheers
 

beleg

New Member
According to the latest news;

SSM has requested price and industrial participation offers from EADS for 40,80 & 120 aircraft. However the recent decision to acquire ~30 F-16Cblk50+ might kill any chance EF-2000 has in the FCA project.

Mean while
Denel and Agusta were asked to give their final offers for the 50 platforms. The companies were also asked to deliver an option which would put TAI as the main contractor in the project. To complicate the matters more Boeing has offered to sell Apache helicopters (32m$ for Longbow , 25m$ for regular ah-64d).

Source : TD&A Update
 

contedicavour

New Member
beleg said:
According to the latest news;

SSM has requested price and industrial participation offers from EADS for 40,80 & 120 aircraft. However the recent decision to acquire ~30 F-16Cblk50+ might kill any chance EF-2000 has in the FCA project.

Mean while
Denel and Agusta were asked to give their final offers for the 50 platforms. The companies were also asked to deliver an option which would put TAI as the main contractor in the project. To complicate the matters more Boeing has offered to sell Apache helicopters (32m$ for Longbow , 25m$ for regular ah-64d).

Source : TD&A Update
Hmm I agree with you that with the new F16s it is very unlikely Typhoon orders will arrive anytime soon... and the Typhoon OR JSF scenario becomes more probable versus the Typhoon AND JSF scenario.
Does the Turkish Air Force look for planes with better air-to-ground or air-to-air characteristics ? If it is looking for air superiority fighters the Typhoon may have some chances left on its side. It is after all fully operational in the air-to-air role...

cheers
 

contedicavour

New Member
By the way, what is the status on the Turkish Army's procurement programme for attack helicopters ? It's been a while I haven't read anything new. LAst time it was down to Mangusta vs Rooivalk.

cheers
 

beleg

New Member
Here is your info ;)

beleg said:
According to the latest news;

Mean while
Denel and Agusta were asked to give their final offers for the 50 platforms. The companies were also asked to deliver an option which would put TAI as the main contractor in the project. To complicate the matters more Boeing has offered to sell Apache helicopters (32m$ for Longbow , 25m$ for regular ah-64d).

Source : TD&A Update
 
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