Europe and the UK were happily cutting defence on a regular and ongoing basis, if Putin had wanted to keep our defence spending low all he had to do was NOT invade Ukraine.
The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread
- Thread starter Feanor
- Start date
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #12,342
Good point. Putin made a mistake and those who wanted to re-arm NATO and damage Russia have succeeded. Assuming his interpretation is correct.
rsemmes
Active Member
My interpretation is that NATO didn't want to make Ukraine Great Again, NATO doesn't care about Ukraine. It is against Russia, not for Ukraine.
We may be providing aid to Nigeria, do we care about Nigeria (Biafra)? I think that we do care about our interests and whatever relation Nigeria may have related to them.
And this situation is... Great news!
(Russia is not a partner, whatever goes wrong for Russia is good for us.)
Where is that "if Putin had wanted to keep..." coming from? Certainly, not from me.
We may be providing aid to Nigeria, do we care about Nigeria (Biafra)? I think that we do care about our interests and whatever relation Nigeria may have related to them.
And this situation is... Great news!
(Russia is not a partner, whatever goes wrong for Russia is good for us.)
Where is that "if Putin had wanted to keep..." coming from? Certainly, not from me.
His "Rsemmes" interpretation has zero basis in evidence and I can't even begin to see how it could be correct given the speed with which we were reducing our defence/war assets.
The only reason to cause harm to Russia was the perceived threat that has presented itself since the invasion of Ukraine, and according to Putin the perception of a threat is enough to take action and destroy your neighbour, in this case Ukraine.
Chicken and egg argument perhaps? Or maybe do unto others etc.
Your interpretation without evidence.
If what you posted above is a quote you should really reference the original source.
In the meantime here is a debate that you might like to read on the subject of Biafra.
Nigeria: Biafran War And Relief Needs - Hansard - UK Parliament https://share.google/ixuhTcLhDvQWnirZU
rsemmes
Active Member
I wonder what that "evidence" could be... ("Keeping Ukraine in the fight", maybe?)
Off topic:
Did you find anything about British weapons for Nigeria? Anything about how British interest were best served in Nigeria?
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So, Putin is a Russian asset. Thanks for making that clear. I've been wondering for three years why he did something so incredibly stupid in 2022 as launching a half-arsed invasion of Ukraine, almost comically badly planned & prepared. Now I understand. It was to induce NATO (& especially NATO Europe) to rearm, & damage Russia.
How long do you think he's been plotting against Russia?
PachkaSigaret
Member
According to Bohdan Krotevych:
Some 5-10km stretches of the front-line are held by 12 or so men.
Goes to show how important FPVs are to holding and slowing down advances. However, you can't keep positions forever with no men manning them. As forced conscription continues, I've noticed a increased uptick of civilians intervening and preventing busification no matter if it's in Kharkov or Lviv.
Civilians in Lutsk preventing forced mobilization
Some 5-10km stretches of the front-line are held by 12 or so men.
Goes to show how important FPVs are to holding and slowing down advances. However, you can't keep positions forever with no men manning them. As forced conscription continues, I've noticed a increased uptick of civilians intervening and preventing busification no matter if it's in Kharkov or Lviv.
Civilians in Lutsk preventing forced mobilization
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #12,349
Presumably since his entrance into politics in the late '90s when he hijacked Yeltsin's mafia state for his (and his fellow clan members') benefit. Jokes aside though, if I'm understanding rsemmes right, he's blaming actors in the collective west for the current state of affairs. They want the war so they can move the political bodies towards re-arming European NATO.
Back on topic. Russian advances, after a somewhat slow middle of June, are picking up again. Ukraine seems to be defending at a fairly minimal level in the central western part of Donetsk region, where Russian forces are now inside Dnepropetrovsk region, and are it's likely we will see the push around Shevchenko and Vol'noe Pole merge with the offensive on Malinovka, into the north-eastern part of Zaporozhye. There's quite a bit of territory to take here, that isn't particularly significant in terms of what it contains but allows Russia to gain ground. The eastern flank of Pokrovsk is moving again, and in a dangerous direction. On the one hand Russian forces seem to be preparing for an assault on Novoekonomichnoe, the last large village east of Mirnograd. On the other hand they've pushed northward out of Koptevo, continuing the push towards Shakhovo. Right now it looks like Russian forces are to both cut off Konstantinovka from the west, and Pokrovsk-Mirnograd from the north-east. On the western side of Pokrovsk Russian forces are trying for Udachnoe, again, but this time advacing northward west of it. I'll do a more detailed update early next week.
Yes but why is Rsemmes blaming Europe?, he provides no evidence he doesn't reference his sources he just makes outrageous lies about people's intentions and never actually references those people by name.
There is zero evidence of the Wests supposed intentions to damage Russia, if there was surely he would provide quotes from European politicians prior to the war?
Literally noone (of any importance) in the UK has ever said or done anything to harm Russia before Ukraine and this is despite the murder in the UK of British citizens with Novichock in a failed assassination attempt. Cue Rsemmes blaming MI5 for that murder ...
Evidence is more than just repeating the same point as nauseum, but as you have evidence I guess that is the best that you can do.
Too many typos on my part in that post and no edit function.
rsemmes
Active Member
No, you are not understanding me right.
First, where do I say anything about plotting? Where do I say anything about what Putin wanted to do with NATO's budget?
Second, was Budapest/56 stupid, Prague/68? This coup failed, it is not the same thing. Robotine failed, Kursk failed and was stupid.
The fact is that Russia is not our economic, political partner, it is our geostrategic rival. I would say that anything that goes against our competition is good for us and I am going to say that, that is evident.
This attrition war (proxy war) is providing what benefits to Ukraine? The western MIC is benefiting from it, is that evident? Russian is investing in weapons, weapons that Russia is burning through in Ukraine; not selling. Russian is not investing that money in anything that we have to compete with; no need to plot anything, I am not blaming anyone, it is just happening. (And I would say that we are happy with the situation, "Great news!")
"It was and it has been about rearming NATO (and damaging Russia), Ukraine is just an useful pawn in this realpolitik."
I think to remember that at the very beginning (2022) Ukraine was all but written off (another Hungary), but then Ukraine was fighting and we decided to help. What were our intentions then? I am not talking about public statements by politicians, in 10, 50 years or never, we will get documents about it.
The more I learn about History the more I like my dog (and I don't have a dog). So, based on History, if it goes bad for Russia and Ukraine has to pay the price, it is all good for us. Callous and cynical? Yes. Historically accurate? Yes. When you read enough about any war or "situation", "good intentions" may be there... as an anecdote. (That is why I mentioned Nigeria/Biafra, as an example.)
Ananda
The Bunker Group
I believe what you wrote on that part and Feanor wrote basically come on same thing. So he is not missundertood you. In sense you wrote that Western political actors use this as excuse to rearming Europe. Not that I disagree, but it is one of main reasons why most Global South stay in fences and keep engaging both sides.
Once more zero evidence , just your own opinion, provide evidence for your assertions.
rsemmes
Active Member
If you understand that Feanor reads that we have something to do with "the current state of affairs", yes.
No, because I don't blame the West (blaming actors in the collective west) for plotting "the current state of affairs". We simply take advantage of "the current state of affairs" and we have been doing that for some time.
Putin started a war, Zelenski, and "the West" are "keeping Ukraine in the fight".
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Your narrative is changing a little, still zero evidence for your assertions though.
Good evening everyone.
Being a long-time reader of this forum, I would like to thank Feanor for basic adequacy and honesty, as a person living in Russia. And also representatives of the Global South, for not following the Western narrative and preserving their own view on such complex relations between the West and Russia.
I want to note that the overwhelming majority of commentators who do not speak Russian and are forced to use English-language sources of information, as a rule, have an extremely distorted view of the processes taking place in the post-Soviet space.
The conflict in Ukraine is perceived extremely painfully within Russian society – not in the media, on forums, or Telegram, but in real communication. To put it roughly, every third person in Russia has relatives in Ukraine; for many it is a personal tragedy. Over three hundred years as part of Russia, a common culture, language, and religion (with the exception of Western Ukraine).
If we talk about the reasons for the conflict, it is a very complex question, but if we simplify it to the maximum, it is the complete and systematic ignoring by the West of Russia's national interests. The subsequent severing of economic ties with Ukraine and the possible formation of a military alliance against Russia (no matter with whom) – this is an existential threat, and here no international laws work anymore. By analogy with the Caribbean Crisis, just imagine Canada instead of Cuba.
If interested, as an example, you can watch the talk by the independent Russian journalist Vladimir Pozner already in the distant 2018 at Yale University:
P.S. I do not speak English well enough, so I’m using a translator.
Being a long-time reader of this forum, I would like to thank Feanor for basic adequacy and honesty, as a person living in Russia. And also representatives of the Global South, for not following the Western narrative and preserving their own view on such complex relations between the West and Russia.
I want to note that the overwhelming majority of commentators who do not speak Russian and are forced to use English-language sources of information, as a rule, have an extremely distorted view of the processes taking place in the post-Soviet space.
The conflict in Ukraine is perceived extremely painfully within Russian society – not in the media, on forums, or Telegram, but in real communication. To put it roughly, every third person in Russia has relatives in Ukraine; for many it is a personal tragedy. Over three hundred years as part of Russia, a common culture, language, and religion (with the exception of Western Ukraine).
If we talk about the reasons for the conflict, it is a very complex question, but if we simplify it to the maximum, it is the complete and systematic ignoring by the West of Russia's national interests. The subsequent severing of economic ties with Ukraine and the possible formation of a military alliance against Russia (no matter with whom) – this is an existential threat, and here no international laws work anymore. By analogy with the Caribbean Crisis, just imagine Canada instead of Cuba.
If interested, as an example, you can watch the talk by the independent Russian journalist Vladimir Pozner already in the distant 2018 at Yale University:
P.S. I do not speak English well enough, so I’m using a translator.
vikingatespam
Well-Known Member
What utter nonsense.
1) Ukraine was never going to join NATO - it could not, but NATOs own by-laws. Why dont you think about this: why do so many countries want to join NATO ? Could it be they are afraid of getting invaded by Russia ? I wonder why ? Ironically Putin has been the best advertisement for NATO membership. Thanks to Putin, Sweden and Finland joined.
2) Looks like Putin severed those economic ties with Ukraine, as well as with Europe. Go ahead and blame him in public, and see how well that works out for you.
3) NATO never invaded Russia. It never threatened to nuke Russia, like Russia likes to do. (Looking at you Medvedev). NATO was NEVER a threat to Russia. In early 2022, NATO was dying, with no real mission and ever shrinking military budgets (can Germany even field a single mech brigade ? I doubt it even now). NATO is just another excuse for paid trolls use to justify this utter shit-show of military incompetence. This is not 1941. No one is going to invade Russia.
4) Russia formented this crisis, plain and simple. This is all on Putin.
The man just posted to both give respect and provide some Insite from the other side. Something anyone who considers the issue important should consider.
As for your posts about Ukraine never joining NATO well that's perspective. There was indeed much talk about it, there was also much NATO expansion into areas that Russia was told there would not be NATO expansion in. Again that point about perspective
I would also note hits points about culture and how close this issue is to Russians (or at least a notable portion of Russians) to there shared history and culture is is something that has also been from the very beginning a point constantly and consistently made by the Russian government. And there for a valid point weather you agree with it or not is almost moot as when it comes down to it these points are what the war is in large part about from the other side...personally I've always considered the real tradagy of this war to be the fact that two people who were in many ways brother are now at war and nomatervthe outcome this is likely to cause some degree of blad blood for generations