KAI KF-21

[ngatimozart]

It's looking good and great to see it take to the air. The National Interest did a story on it in April 2021 which gives some background for those unfamiliar with the aircraft. Korea’s New KF-21 Jet Isn’t A Stealth Fighter—But Could Evolve Into One | The National Interest

 

[Ananda]

Just add comments to the article that ngati put. It is good article for base background on KF-21. However two items that still clearly only potential at this moment:

1. Even Korean defense analysts concur KF-21 still a 4.5th gen Fighter. Any evolve toward true 5th gen Fighter will need much more Investment. With ROK continue commitment to gain more F-35, there's big question even from Korean defense analysts whether there will be enough traction from ROK administration for that kind of Investment.

2. The price target of USD 65mio seems hard to achieve even when KF-21 using off the shelf tech. That amount coming more ambitious calculation of 170-200 fighters on initial order. That population coming from 120 ROKAF and 50-80 TNI-AU. That TNI-AU portion is very questionable at this moment, considering present Indonesian administration financial (not Political) willingness on the project.

Moreover with present global economics inflation pressure, there're potential the production costs from materials will be increased. I suspect the number USD 65mio can turn into USD80 mio (with Indonesian order) or USD100 mio (with ROKAF order only). ROK and KAI try to get more other from SEA nations with Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam and Malaysia being pursue. So far no commitment yet only interest, and even there's commitment sometime in future, will be question if it can take over Indonesian order portion.

That's why ROK still put Indonesian flag in the fuselage.

 

[Ananda]

Will President Jokowi's visit settle KF-X payment issue with Indonesia? - The Korea Times

A KF-21 Boramae takes off at the third Flying Training Wing of the Air Force in Sacheon, South Gyeongsang Province, Tuesday, for its first flight test. Courtesy of Defense Acquisition Program Administ...

m.koreatimes.co.kr

ROK media put article hoping on Jokowi visit will put final decision on Indonesian overdue payment. Well good luck on that. Knowing this administration, it can get to further discusion on overall time table installment. That's on the best scenario, well what can I said, I already a long term sceptics .

Anyway Korean "local" defense analysts just like many in Asian, are in the end clouded by Nationalistics jinggo. Korean should be rightly proud for KF-21, it is good milestone on their defense development. However on this stage claiming KF-21 is better then Rafale is over estimating. Both at this moment are in similar 4.5th gen catagories, and Rafale are more proven then KF-21.

This article talk with local defense analyst, which in my opinion still has questionable claim. Even ROKAF still short call KF-21 as having stealth capabilities. One thing for sure Asians media still full of so call defense analysts put BS claims.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Will President Jokowi's visit settle KF-X payment issue with Indonesia? - The Korea Times

A KF-21 Boramae takes off at the third Flying Training Wing of the Air Force in Sacheon, South Gyeongsang Province, Tuesday, for its first flight test. Courtesy of Defense Acquisition Program Administ...

m.koreatimes.co.kr

ROK media put article hoping on Jokowi visit will put final decision on Indonesian overdue payment. Well good luck on that. Knowing this administration, it can get to further discusion on overall time table installment. That's on the best scenario, well what can I said, I already a long term sceptics .

Anyway Korean "local" defense analysts just like many in Asian, are in the end clouded by Nationalistics jinggo. Korean should be rightly proud for KF-21, it is good milestone on their defense development. However on this stage claiming KF-21 is better then Rafale is over estimating. Both at this moment are in similar 4.5th gen catagories, and Rafale are more proffen then KF-21.

This article talk with local defense analyst, which in my opinion still has questionable claim. Even ROKAF still short call KF-21 as having stealth capabilities. One thing for sure Asians media still full of so call defense analysts put BS claims.

Well, there is no interesting news/development from his visit to South-Korea. At least nothing defence-related, so for us this is again a sign that the current administration is absolutely not interested in the KF-X program.

S. Korean, Indonesian leaders agree to boost economic ties

SEOUL, South Korea (AP) — The presidents of South Korea and Indonesia agreed Thursday to boost their bilateral cooperation on supply chains, economic security and defense.

apnews.com

 

[Arji]

Pretty sure it is briefly mentioned in the press conference of both presidents. "Both countries are committed to finishing KFX program" or something along that line. It's about what you can expect from these types of meeting. I'll just wait for the budget report.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

|"The aircraft's inclusion on the offset list underscores the high level of foreign involvement in the KF-21 development programme and also Seoul's determination to locally source replacements."|
I have the feeling that they do not mean our country...
:-D

South Korea prioritises offsets on KF-21 programme

South Korea has added its domestically developed KF-21 (Boramae) fighter aircraft to its list of priority defence offset projects during the coming few years.

www.janes.com

 

[Ananda]

BEMIL 군사세계

[첫 공개 영상] KF-21 랜딩기어 접고 힘차게 날았다! 초기 비행 건전성 시험 완료!

tv.naver.com

Video on further KF-21 flight test, including the first public video on KF-21 folding the gear in the air. First video from Bemil Chosun, second from You Tube.

 

[ngatimozart]

I have changed the name of the Thread to KAI KF-21 to better reflect the thread topic now that the prototype aircraft has flown.

For Info: @OPSSG @Ananda @Sandhi Yudha @tonnyc @STURM

 

[Ananda]

Agree with Ngati, as not only this aircraft already fly, also potentially can be used by more customers.

Indonesia berkomitmen dukung keberlanjutan pengembangan KF-21 Boramae

Pemerintah Indonesia tetap berkomitmen untuk mendukung keberlanjutan pengembangan pesawat tempur KFX/IFX yang kini dilabeli KF-21 Boramae. "Indonesia ...

m.antaranews.com

Indonesian MinDef keep giving political support, and claim it will be the Fighter of choice for Indonesian AF for later part of decade and next. Hope now it is back by money trails to support not only the payment dues but also Investments on the 'Indonesian' batch.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Agree with Ngati, as not only this aircraft already fly, also potentially can be used by more customers.

Indonesia berkomitmen dukung keberlanjutan pengembangan KF-21 Boramae

Pemerintah Indonesia tetap berkomitmen untuk mendukung keberlanjutan pengembangan pesawat tempur KFX/IFX yang kini dilabeli KF-21 Boramae. "Indonesia ...

m.antaranews.com

Indonesian MinDef keep giving political support, and claim it will be the Fighter of choice for Indonesian AF for later part of decade and next. Hope now it is back by money trails to support not only the payment dues but also Investments on the 'Indonesian' batch.

Indonesia touts KF-21 fighter jet need, but is mum on laggard payments

Jakarta's budget has come under pressure, exacerbated by the coronavirus pandemic.

www.defensenews.com

|"Indonesia has reaffirmed its commitment to develop a fighter jet with South Korea, as questions about long-overdue payments for Jakarta’s share of the development remain unanswered.

According to South Korean media reports, Indonesia has failed to stick to a repayment schedule both countries agreed upon in November 2021 despite multiple promises to resolve the issue from various officials, including its president, Joko Widodo. As of July, the country was reportedly behind to the tune of $557 million. "|


They can promise as much as they want, but for years these are just empty promises. Perhaps we will hear their empty words until KAI has completed the development of the KF-X, then the Indonesian participation is not anymore required and because of this the government does not need to pay anymore.

 

[Ananda]

Perhaps we will hear their empty words until KAI has completed the development of the KF-X, then the Indonesian participation is not anymore required and because of this the government does not need to pay anymore.

Well the potential can be there, if present administration just push this to the next one after 2024. Perhaps then the next administration then decide to renegotiate the deal to change the RnD dues as down payment for procurement of KF-21. Relegate Indonesian status from Junior Partner to just customers. Anything can happen.

That's why this thread is appropriate being renamed as KAI KF-21 thread. Because whatever happen with the development on Indonesian industrial participation, this plane will always be KAI's product.

 

[John Fedup]

I think it will be very interesting to see the KF-21N’s future. Given the cost of the F-35B and possible range considerations, STOBAR and CATOBAR carrier options may be enhanced for some Asian navies. Price will be a huge factor of course, especially if a navy wants CATOBAR. A bargain price KF-21N will go a long way to off setting the cost of a EMALS. Better stealth characteristics compared to other 4.5+ gen fighters wouldn’t hurt either.. Something to watch, both airforce and naval versions.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

|"Khusus mengenai persyaratan unik dari TNI AU, selain versi tempat duduk ganda (tandem) adalah sistem pengisian bahan bakar di udara (air refueling) menerapkan sistem probe & drouge sedangkan RoKAF dengan metode boom system."|
So TNI-AU 's requirements are :
- There should be a twin seat version of the KF-X.
- Probe & drogue inflight refueling system
- Dragchute

|"Mengenai versi tandem KF-21, prototipenya belum menjalani penerbangan perdananya. Dari enam prototipe terbang, baru KF-21 nomor seri 001 satu yang telah mengudara."|
The twinseat version is one of the six flying prototypes, but until now only the first prototype has flown.

KAI bangun prototipe KF-21 versi tandem untuk unique requirement TNI AU

AIRSPACE REVIEW (airspace-review.com) - Dalam pengembangan jet tempur multiperan KF-21 Boramae, sebanyak delapan prototipe KF-21 telah

www.airspace-review.com

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Because Indonesia still has debts/did not pay the majority of the 20%, the fifth KF-X/F-21 prototype will not be sent to Indonesia.

Terjawab, prototipe KF-21 seri 005 tidak akan dikirimkan ke Indonesia

AIRSPACE REVIEW (airspace-review.com) - Prototipe jet tempur KF-21 ke-5 (seri 005) telah diperlihatkan selama kunjungan Presiden Yoon Suk-

www.airspace-review.com

 

[Ananda]

the fifth KF-X/F-21 prototype will not be sent to Indonesia.

The 5th prototype supposedly being assemble in DI facility. Now, DI 'engineers' only involve with OJT (on the job traning) in KAI facility, including with this 5th prototype.

So this is how 'neglected' Indonesian participation in this fighter already. 5th proto should be assemble in DI facility, 'if' DI already build IFX facility in first place. This is why Korean media question Indonesia seriousness in the program. Not only cause the due has not been paid, but also no invesment on IFX facility yet.

 

[John Fedup]

The KF-21 program is just one of SKorea’s several programs of ensuring defence with domestic manufacturing, something that Indonesia is also desiring. Given the export success of S Korean military kit recently, a good partner for Indonesia. Complex aerospace military projects are expensive and risky but I don’t think there is a better regional partner than South Korea for Indonesia given the incentive from their nemesis in the North.

 

[koxinga]

Other than industrial offsets and limited knowledge, does the KF-21 offer anything else from a capability standpoint to Indonesia?

I say this in light of the Rafale F4/F-15ID acquisitions. As a 4.5 gen fighter in the current iteration, its capabilities does not seem vastly superior to either of this two platforms, which are considerably more mature.

 

[Ananda]

Given the export success of S Korean military kit recently, a good partner for Indonesia. Complex aerospace military projects are expensive and risky but I don’t think there is a better regional partner than South Korea for Indonesia

Yes, but seems not all in present administration including MinDef are convince ROK will be reliable partners on defense industry development in future. 2 of main defense industry project between ROK and Indonesia which are DSME 1400 Submarine Batch 2 and IFX (which off course Indonesian derivative of KF-21) still in limbo. This is the problem for long term commitment in Indonesia. Situational politics can off set everything. Now based on latest Indodefence, seems Turkiye got positive wind as defense partner.

Seems there's already tiny payment of overdue development cost for KF-21 being put, but not neccesary means everything already settle. This is only means so far there's 'nudge' ahead for Indonesia to move on the program.

does the KF-21 offer anything else from a capability standpoint to Indonesia?

If you mean defense capabilities of KF-21 compared to more mature 4.5 gen Fighter like Rafale F4 (even F3), I agree with you it is not providing more substantial improvement. However Indonesian involvement with KFX design from begining by previous admin as to give experience learning curve for DI on Fighters design and manufacturing stage.

This is video that being talk by Indonesian defense enthusiats circle. Some in denial, but many show this as reality what is Indonesian invovement in this project. So, it is what it is. IFX is practically only participation as junior partner, no more then licensing from senior partner. Still it is rather important step toward developing abilities on designing your own fighters in future.

Even now some fanboys still stubornly won't accept that, and cling on in their delusional realities. Still call Indonesia is co developer even co owner of the program.

 

[ngatimozart]

Yes, I watched that video yesterday and the Brig Gen (Ret'd) made the SK view very clear. I went to watch the full interview and it only had Korea subtitles, bugger.

Me thinks that your fanbois will have to find something else to lust over and obsess over.

 

[Ananda]

thinks that your fanbois will have to find something else to lust over and obsess over.

Well some fanbois already living in alternate realities. Realities hard to swallow .

Anyway if this administration still follow realities on the contract, not trying to gain new political agenda, the progress (including investment with the supporting facilities) in schedulle already give DI their first experience on license manufacturing of their proto KF-21.

I still call it KF-21 as based on initial agreement the prototype still follow korean version. However later on KAI will give DI license agreement to conduct their own system integration. This off course next stage not on the first stage of USD 10 bio development. However still a licensing agreement as the IP still hold by KAI.

So it is in my opinion already fair deal for a Junior Partner on any development program. Then again you'll never know on Politics mess up any long term plan. This and image agenda calling IFX as Indonesian indigenous build Fighters. Something that never in any agreement from begining. Nationalistics politics can shift realities on some segment of public on expectations.