The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

[Ananda]

Should the New York Times have anticipated disapproval and said that Russian draft-dodgers would face criticisim?

Take a look how the tone and language of the article between Ukranian and Russian draft dodgers. The Russian being shown as natural thing to avoid draft that they don't want it. While Ukranian draft dodgers are put as something regretable and selfish in nature.

This is bias on the similar situations of what as human on both sides are all natural some going to avoid the drafts. Put NYT just as example, as there are more western media that are more blatant on the bias on this situation of draft dodgers comparison.

Point is don't put Russian media as the only blatant propaganda, while western media doing the same thing. Just perhaps bit more tactfull.

 

[imQueen]

Take a look how the tone and language of the article between Ukranian and Russian draft dodgers. The Russian being shown as natural thing to avoid draft that they don't want it. While Ukranian draft dodgers are put as something regretable and selfish in nature.

This is bias on the similar situations of what as human on both sides are all natural some going to avoid the drafts. Put NYT just as example, as there are more western media that are more blatant on the bias on this situation of draft dodgers comparison.

Point is don't put Russian media as the only blatant propaganda, while western media doing the same thing. Just perhaps bit more tactfull.

In VietNam, Vietnam's people call Muhammad Ali is a hero. They call draft dodgers is son of the bitchs, sold country. It is simple logic: draft dodgers of Vietnam run when bomb fall in his home, on the head of children and old people, and Muhammad Ali fight for moral. And court of America say Muhammad Ali not guilty.
Same logic need to be apply in case Ukraine and Russian. Because you tell about VietNam war

 

[Rob c]

This is bias on the similar situations of what as human on both sides are all natural some going to avoid the drafts. Put NYT just as example, as there are more western media that are more blatant on the bias on this situation of draft dodgers comparison

`You are correct that this is bias, the difference is that most of the western media have a choice to express what is an opinion that they hold, as opposed to the autocratic governments involved were there is little choice. This is not a situation that can can be graded as either that the western media is being even or uneven in their reporting, they are simply expressing the personal opinion of the writer and whether they are following the government line or not is up to them, unlike the autocratic governments.

 

[Rob c]

There are some estimates that Ukraine's forces number presently between 500000 to 700000 armed forces is Ukraine able to still continue a build up of its forces who are also receiving levels of overseas training is a big question

The problem that Ukraine faces is that they need large numbers of troops and their gear to guard the borders with Belorussia and Russia, and especially the exposed flank that has been created by their rapid advances in the north east.
This combined with the tooth and tail ratio will mean that while these numbers appear very high, the number of troops available for any offensive will be limited.

 

[Feanor]

The problem that Ukraine faces is that they need large numbers of troops and their gear to guard the borders with Belorussia and Russia, and especially the exposed flank that has been created by their rapid advances in the north east.
This combined with the tooth and tail ratio will mean that while these numbers appear very high, the number of troops available for any offensive will be limited.

There's also a clear differential between the Kherson and Kharkov offensives. Note, in Kherson they concentranted forces and it led to heavy casualties from Russian strikes. In Kharkov they used much smaller mobile elements and had huge success. I can't help but wonder if they would have done worse with larger numbers of troops involved.

 

[SolarWind]

Ukraine’s Draft Dodgers Face Guilt, Shame and Reproach (Published 2022)

Thousands of Ukrainian men are avoiding military service, putting them on risky paths into Europe. Among Ukrainians, it’s stirring a complicated debate.

www.nytimes.com

‘A Lot of Panic’: Russian Men, Fearing Ukraine Draft, Seek Refuge Abroad (Published 2022)

Vladimir V. Putin’s new military call-up has sent young men who don’t want to fight in Ukraine heading to the borders.

www.nytimes.com

When Ukrainian avoiding draft then they are cowards. However when Russian avoiding draft then it is humane thing to do. This is what Western Mainstream media try to put. Thus are this not part of propaganda war ?

This is part of what happened in any military draft all over the world. Some of the population will try to run away. Happen in US during Vietnam drafted, happen in Ukraine, and when it's happening in Russia, why it's a difference ?

This shown media bias in Western-Ukraine vs Russia-China is just part of normalcy. So why saying what West put is more truth in this war ? The truth is both sides now playing fog of war on more intense mode.

The bias is not so obvious when you consider that within Western cultural thinking, and including Russian culture in this case, it is permissible to disagree with government policies, such as is the case with Russian draft dodgers who do not want to fight, suffer, and die in Putin's meaningless and criminal war. Whereas refusal to defend your own from evil for fear is more universally considered an extreme form of cowardice.

 

[Feanor]

The bias is not so obvious when you consider that within Western cultural thinking, and including Russian culture in this case, it is permissible to disagree with government policies, such as is the case with Russian draft dodgers who do not want to fight, suffer, and die in Putin's meaningless and criminal war. Whereas refusal to defend your own from evil is more universally considered an extreme form of cowardice.

It's interesting that we didn't see the population of LDNR trying to flee in every which way when they were mobilized. But in Russia it's a different story. It's possible this still happened and we just missed it, but the difference in image is notable. And many pro-rebel sources had negative things to say about the way the mobilization was conducted in the LDNR, but draft dodging was not a major discussion point at least that I've seen.

 

[SolarWind]

It's interesting that we didn't see the population of LDNR trying to flee in every which way when they were mobilized. But in Russia it's a different story. It's possible this still happened and we just missed it, but the difference in image is notable. And many pro-rebel sources had negative things to say about the way the mobilization was conducted in the LDNR, but draft dodging was not a major discussion point at least that I've seen.

Unfortunately, I do not know enough about the situation in LDNR, but I wouldn't be surprised if we cannot assume it is the same environment as Moscow or Russia, for the sake of this comparison, and in terms of freedoms, including that of the press, as it was likely a closed zone, a warzone and under Russia's tight military control.

 

[Feanor]

Unfortunately, I do not know enough about the situation in LDNR, but I wouldn't be surprised if we cannot assume it is the same environment as Moscow or Russia for the sake of this comparison in terms of freedoms, including that of the press, as it was likely a closed zone, a warzone and under Russia's tight military control.

It's not impossible to leave in either direction, Ukraine or Russia. While both directions have their challenges, many residents there have a valid Ukrainian passport, and a few have a valid Russian one.

 

[SolarWind]

It's not impossible to leave in either direction, Ukraine or Russia. While both directions have their challenges, many residents there have a valid Ukrainian passport, and a few have a valid Russian one.

That's probably the reason. And many, I am sure, have left while they could. Some were even reportedly encouraged to evacuate. The LDNR militia is very much a for-show force for the Kremlin. They only do not tell us how many of them are real locals and how many are Russian soldiers.

 

[hauritz]

So I guess if these areas vote to stay with the Ukraine then the war is over and the Russians will withdraw.

 

[Feanor]

So I guess if these areas vote to stay with the Ukraine then the war is over and the Russians will withdraw.

If the referendum was conducted honestly, that would be the outcome. But realistically...

And let's not forget, many people have fled the fighting.

 

[Ananda]

Same logic need to be apply in case Ukraine and Russian. Because you tell about VietNam war

Put Vietnam War to shown even in "democratic" USA, draft dodging can happen. So it is happening also in Ukraine and Russia. It is part of human nature whether in "democracy" or "autocracy" for some will dodge the draft, and each government will try to hold back the dodgers as much as possible.

The argument of which war is just or evil is a 'moot' argument as it is always depend on each other perspectives. We can see that on all US wars since cold wars until now. All can be seen from each sides perspectives from "evil" to "just". This is already debated even in this thread, from begining of this war. That's why it is a moot debate cause it is back to each sides perspectives.

This is not a situation that can can be graded as either that the western media is being even or uneven in their reporting, they are simply expressing the personal opinion of the writer and whether they are following the government line or not is up to them, unlike the autocratic governments.

This is true on one sense of more 'brute' political control. However even in west the political control can still happen, it is just the method is done more subtle. Look on how many in Western media potrait Ukranian goverment before Russian invasion, as corrupt and undemocratics (simple googling can shown that). How the treatment of Ukranian opposition being shown by heavy critics even in EU.

How that tone change in many mainstream media now showing how democratics and just Ukraine is, while their (Zelensky administration) treatment on opposition now basically pull under the rug by those media. Those commentators that still critical to Zelensky now being side line and some branded as pro Russian.

We can see how in the West political leaniences of each media control their naratives. Which is why the tone that 'critical' with Ukraine government or even bit symphetise with Russian now mostly in Fox for example. Thus shown politics on whose in control of each media in West can drive whatever the "toned" on how they want to presented this war (or any other topics).

If we see the Pro Russian telegrams we can see how they are also can be critical on the present Russian administration even some directly to Putin circles. This shown during Ukranian offensives in Kharkiv-Izzium fronts. However when they (Russian) done this, then those Western mainstream media try to pictures this as Putin loosing his grip.

Just shown why many of those who choose to sit in fences (outside Pro Russian and Pro Ukraine-Collective West perspectives), like myself, keep looking on both sides media but also keeping both of them on 'high grain of salt" perspectives. This is perhaps also why Russia not being 'isolated' by those outside collective west and allies.

 

[ngatimozart]

Put Vietnam War to shown even in "democratic" USA, draft dodging can happen. So it is happening also in Ukraine and Russia. It is part of human nature whether in "democracy" or "autocracy" for some will dodge the draft, and each government will try to hold back the dodgers as much as possible.

The argument of which war is just or evil is a 'moot' argument as it is always depend on each other perspectives. We can see that on all US wars since cold wars until now. All can be seen from each sides perspectives from "evil" to "just". This is already debated even in this thread, from begining of this war. That's why it is a moot debate cause it is back to each sides perspectives.



This is true on one sense of more 'brute' political control. However even in west the political control can still happen, it is just the method is done more subtle. Look on how many in Western media potrait Ukranian goverment before Russian invasion, as corrupt and undemocratics (simple googling can shown that). How the treatment of Ukranian opposition being shown by heavy critics even in EU.

How that tone change in many mainstream media now showing how democratics and just Ukraine is, while their (Zelensky administration) treatment on opposition now basically pull under the rug by those media. Those commentators that still critical to Zelensky now being side line and some branded as pro Russian.

We can see how in the West political leaniences of each media control their naratives. Which is why the tone that 'critical' with Ukraine government or even bit symphetise with Russian now mostly in Fox for example. Thus shown politics on whose in control of each media in West can drive whatever the "toned" on how they want to presented this war (or any other topics).

If we see the Pro Russian telegrams we can see how they are also can be critical on the present Russian administration even some directly to Putin circles. This shown during Ukranian offensives in Kharkiv-Izzium fronts. However when they (Russian) done this, then those Western mainstream media try to pictures this as Putin loosing his grip.

Just shown why many of those who choose to sit in fences (outside Pro Russian and Pro Ukraine-Collective West perspectives), like myself, keep looking on both sides media but also keeping both of them on 'high grain of salt" perspectives. This is perhaps also why Russia not being 'isolated' by those outside collective west and allies.

The difference between pre 24/2/22 and now is Putin's 2nd unwarranted and illegal invasion of Ukraine and subsequent actions of Russian forces thereof. Those Ukrainians who shot through to evade Ukrainian compulsory military conscription are cowards (and I would say traitors) because their country needs them when it's literally fighting for its life. Whereas those men in Russia who flee to avoid military conscription are doing so from a moral point of view, because their leader (Putin) launched an illegal war of aggression against a neighbour. Ukraine is fighting a just war under the UN convention and international law; Russia isn't. There's a big difference in the ethical and moral values between the two.

I would also disagree with your claim that "This is perhaps also why Russia not being 'isolated' by those outside collective west and allies." Russia is being isolated more with it resoundingly losing the vote in the UN General Assembly to prevent Zelenskiy to appear by video. UN Allows Ukraine's Zelenskiy To Prerecord General Assembly Address. Putin has for all intents and purposes become a vassal of Xi Jinping ‘Hat in hand’: Putin meets Xi for first time since Ukraine war. He was also told by Modi of Indian that "now is not an era of war" Samarkand SCO summit | PM Modi tells Vladimir Putin ‘now is not an era of war’. Modi had his reasons other than than the obvious ones Why Narendra Modi criticised Vladimir Putin in Samarkand. Putin was also kept waiting by the leaders of Turkey, Azerbaijan, India and Kyrgyzstan Putin mocked after foreign leaders keep him waiting at SCO summit which would have been absolutely humiliating for him.

 

[seaspear]

The phrase Western media as opposed to who ? Government controlled media that aims to control the thinking of its citizens who have no other source of information to reach an independent viewpoint shades of George Orwell s 1984 ,its worth remembering Russia did have for a short time independent media outlets ,Nazi Germany was able to control its people in a similar fashion shaping viewpoints and racist ideology that Putin copies

 

[Ananda]

would also disagree with your claim that "This is perhaps also why Russia not being 'isolated' by those outside collective west and allies." Russia is being isolated more with it resoundingly losing the vote in the UN General Assembly to prevent Zelenskiy to appear by video.

I'm sorry Ngati, however there's difference between loosing diplomatic prestige and being isolated. What you have been shown I do believe more to shown how Russia loosing it's diplomatic prestiges. However it is not the same with isolation.

This war shown Russia loosing it's prestige in global eyes, however same time it's not also increase collective west diplomatic prestige. G7 for example aim to cap Russian Margin from their Hydrocarbon export, however even Biden understand it's not going to work if other outside collective west did not support that. So far no indication the likes China or India will support G7 move. Even some of those who are not Russia traditional hydrocarbon customers, now seriously considering getting Russian hydrocarbon either through direct purchase or through Others.

Another example is, on how Collective West try to scratch out Russia involvement in G20. However at this moment others G20 members outside collective west did not follow their wishes (yet). Indonesia as current president try to walk balancing move by inviting both Putin and Zelensky (even tough Ukraine is not part of G20). All this shown Russia loosing diplomatic influence, however nor that Collective West gaining more. It's simple the rest try to sit in fences and play balancing act.

Outside Collective West and allies, the rest of the world still open trade channel with Russia. Yes, some already reducing trade with Russia, but some increasing. Those who reducing mostly due to the increase costs on trading with Russia due to Western sanction creating more expensive trading costs with Russia on some area. Still it is not shown they are touting collective west demand for isolating Russia.

As for media, whether in West or other places in this world, it is Media aim to not only report but also try to influence their readers/watchers opinion. That's the Media aim from beginning. Again Russian media is control by their government, no doubt about that. However Western media also playing with politics this time around. So in some ways even in West, political bias is controlling mainstream media. At least those independent online media more honest on shown whose they are supporting too.

 

[seaspear]

I can understand political bias in reporting but reporting from bombed cities or reporting from sites with crimes against civilians it is not political to report accurately atrocities

 

[Atunga]

Ukraine’s Draft Dodgers Face Guilt, Shame and Reproach (Published 2022)

Thousands of Ukrainian men are avoiding military service, putting them on risky paths into Europe. Among Ukrainians, it’s stirring a complicated debate.

www.nytimes.com

‘A Lot of Panic’: Russian Men, Fearing Ukraine Draft, Seek Refuge Abroad (Published 2022)

Vladimir V. Putin’s new military call-up has sent young men who don’t want to fight in Ukraine heading to the borders.

www.nytimes.com

When Ukrainian avoiding draft then they are cowards. However when Russian avoiding draft then it is humane thing to do. This is what Western Mainstream media try to put. Thus are this not part of propaganda war ?

This is part of what happened in any military draft all over the world. Some of the population will try to run away. Happen in US during Vietnam drafted, happen in Ukraine, and when it's happening in Russia, why it's a difference ?

This shown media bias in Western-Ukraine vs Russia-China is just part of normalcy. So why saying what West put is more truth in this war ? The truth is both sides now playing fog of war on more intense mode.

I mean western propaganda makes Russian Propaganda and lies a child’s play.. they change the narrative every time and scape goat those that are not willing to follow

 

[swerve]

I mean western propaganda makes Russian Propaganda and lies a child’s play.. they change the narrative every time and scape goat those that are not willing to follow

You mean it makes Russian propaganda look amateurish? That's true. Russian propaganda tells lies, many of which are obvious lies, while western propaganda usually just tells the truth selectively, or perhaps exaggerates the credibility of a rumour, & is balanced by a lot of reporting of truths it omits.

Consider this: the Russian press (& especially not big name, big circulation sources which are local equivalents to the NYT) doesn't report things the Russian state tells it not to. Don't you see the difference?

"Sophisticated" Russian propaganda is, for example, claiming that Ukrainians are selling on a lot of the weapons they've received from the west, based on very crude fake adverts on the dark web. Like most Russian propaganda, it is aimed at the gullible & those who are looking for confirmation of their prejudices.
Undercover with Russia’s fake arms dealers

But this discussion doesn't really belong in this thread.

 

[seaspear]

No co incidence that Russian media and those in computer type occupations (hacking and propaganda ) are exempt from draft