HAL had plans years ago to.license product critical parts and have them available for export within 24 hours of receiving payment. No idea what happened to this plan.
Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter SABRE
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
A point for HAL Nashik to ponder: What after Sukhoi-30MKI fighters?
Used to totting up over Rs 6,000 crore each year from the assembly of 15-16 Sukhoi-30MKIs, HAL's Nashik division is now scrabbling for orders
HAL already have license to make parts for Su-30 MKI. Parts that categories as Line Replacement Unit (fast moving parts). However from outside those LRU, I don't see in Indian Media or forums they got license for more 'structural' parts that needed when doing heavier MRO.
So India will still need to sources some parts from Russia for heavier maintenance cycle. This is India that have huge population of Russian build assets. Shown countries like India or Vietnam as example will still need to gain Russian sources to keep substantial parts of their defense working.
So for them one way or another I do see they will have to break CAATSA and sanction regardless what US and West policy will be.
This is what going to be interesting to watch in this near future, what boundaries that US will do against some nations that US need for their China containment strategy, but still need to work with Russia.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
|"The Philippine Air Force (PAF) is expected to begin receiving the first tranche of 17 new Mil Mi-17 twin-engine multirole transport helicopters from Russia by the end of 2023, amid the continuing Ukrainian conflict."|
Scrapping deal to acquire Russian helicopters unlikely: DND
MANILA – Department of National Defense (DND) Secretary Delfin Lorenzana on Wednesday said the contract for the 17 Russian-made Mil Mi-17 heavy-lift helicopters is unlikely to be scrapped for now despite the ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine."No, we do not see any likelihood of...www.pna.gov.ph
Philippines MinDef officially still saying the contract with Russia for Mi-17V on track. No sign it will be cancelled. Lorenzana practically say, we have pay the down payment, and the deal will still be follow.
So basically Philippines challenge CAATSA and present financial sanction from US and West to Russia. If Philippines still want to do this, how US going to handle India that have much larger defense projects with Russia.
This can potentially put US to choose between Russian sanction and China containment strategy.
So it seems to be 17 pieces of Mi-17. But like already said before here in this thread, not only CAATSA/political pressure from the US can mess up this plan (unless the Philippines already got permission from the US as compensation of the acquisition of the large amount of Sikorsky S-70i), but also the current war in Ukraine.
Philippines to acquire Mi-17 transport helos
The Philippine Air Force (PAF) is expected to begin receiving the first tranche of 17 new Mil Mi-17 twin-engine multirole transport helicopters from Russia by the end of...
www.janes.com
Bonus: a photo of the delivery of the first TAI T-129 helicopters.
The contract was for 16. The additional one was reportedly to be a VIP configured variant that was offered as a sweetner.
1st Lt. Jul Laiza Mae B. Camposano-Beran was recently qualified to fly combat missions on the S.211 and has so far clocked 150 hours on the jet.
A Singaporean or Malaysian pilot would not call himself (or herself), a fighter pilot when he/she finished training on an advanced jet trainer. That pilot would need to qualify on type — be it the F-15SG/F-16V or F-18D/SU-30MKM. The PAF are sadly mistaken, if they decide to call the FA-50 a fighter.
The Pinoys have zero fighters, capable of fighting BVR — ergo, they have zero fighter pilots.
A Singaporean or Malaysian pilot would not call himself (or herself), a fighter pilot when he/she finished training on an advanced jet trainer. That pilot would need to qualify on type — be it the F-15SG/F-16V or F-18D/SU-30MKM. The PAF are sadly mistaken, if they decide to call the FA-50 a fighter.
The Pinoys have zero fighters, capable of fighting BVR — ergo, they have zero fighter pilots.
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't call the SIAI-Marchetti S.211 an advanced jet trainer, its a very basic one. But hey, a young good looking woman dressed like a fighter pilot sitting in a streamlined jet powered aircraft is perfect for propaganda purposes, and fanboys, journalists and politicians will love it.
The Philippine Air Force recently received the 5th C295 from the in total seven ordered.
This aircraft marks the first delivery of a new contract signed in 2021 with the Philippines for the acquisition of three additional C295. According to the Philippine News Agency, the contract is worth PHP5,288 billion (USD 101,65 million).
Philippine Air Force takes charge of additional C295
The Philippine Air Force (PAF) received an additional Airbus C295M medium-lift transport aircraft on 28 March. This raises the total number of C295s operated by the...
www.janes.com
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It seems it was announced last week that outgoing Pres. Duterte has approved the multi-role fighter project.
"The choice is between the (US) F-16s and the Gripen of Sweden. There are other nations interested to join but they have not yet submitted their proposals. For now, we only have two proposals" said Philippine Air Force (PAF) chief Lt. Gen. Connor Anthony Canlas Sr (auto-translated). PAF multi-role fighter project OK'd
Not sure if they consider (second hand) F-16 block 50/52 & Gripen C or new/modern F-16 block 70 & Gripen E?
I am guessing that in any case F-16 is the most likely choice, at least from the Air Force perspective, since I assume they appreciate to have better interoperability with the US Air Force? Also the F-16 has longer legs and bigger payload capacity.
Not sure how the political angle will play out? Is the new president as skeptical to the US as Duterte?
"The choice is between the (US) F-16s and the Gripen of Sweden. There are other nations interested to join but they have not yet submitted their proposals. For now, we only have two proposals" said Philippine Air Force (PAF) chief Lt. Gen. Connor Anthony Canlas Sr (auto-translated). PAF multi-role fighter project OK'd
Not sure if they consider (second hand) F-16 block 50/52 & Gripen C or new/modern F-16 block 70 & Gripen E?
I am guessing that in any case F-16 is the most likely choice, at least from the Air Force perspective, since I assume they appreciate to have better interoperability with the US Air Force? Also the F-16 has longer legs and bigger payload capacity.
Not sure how the political angle will play out? Is the new president as skeptical to the US as Duterte?
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That statement, from the spokesperson is technically incorrect. PAF MRF is an approved project under the AFP Modernization Program. Even the choice of the platform was endorsed by the President much much earlier.
Maxdefense/PH defrence resource has a comprehensive timeline of this and they alternated between the F-16V BLK72 to the JAS-39 C/Ds as of the last approval.
At this stage, any choice is better than no choice. With the economy tanking and the Philippines Peso taking a dive against the USD, the chances of them ending up with nothing is pretty high.
Maxdefense/PH defrence resource has a comprehensive timeline of this and they alternated between the F-16V BLK72 to the JAS-39 C/Ds as of the last approval.
At this stage, any choice is better than no choice. With the economy tanking and the Philippines Peso taking a dive against the USD, the chances of them ending up with nothing is pretty high.
Looks like they may dump the Mil-17 deal after all.
Background: The Mil-17 deal was an executive decision by Durtere. As a condition for the Philippines Airforce to purchase 16 S-70i Blackhawks, he made PAF select the Mil-17 for their heavy life requirements, even though the preferred choice had been the CH-47.
apnews.com
Background: The Mil-17 deal was an executive decision by Durtere. As a condition for the Philippines Airforce to purchase 16 S-70i Blackhawks, he made PAF select the Mil-17 for their heavy life requirements, even though the preferred choice had been the CH-47.
AP Exclusive: Philippines scraps Russian chopper deal
Philippine officials say the government has scrapped a deal to purchase 16 Russian military transport helicopters due to fears of possible U.S. sanctions.
apnews.com
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Balik bayad: DND eyes refund on botched P12.9B helicopter deal with Russia
The Department of National Defense (DND) is studying options on how to refund its P1.9-billion down payment for the botched acquisition of brand new helicopters from Russia.
politics.com.ph
I'm just looking this from Commercial contract point of view. Basically under usual commercial agreement, there's no 'legal' binding from Russian side to refund the downpayment as Philipines that decide to broke the contract. Also they are broke the contract not due anything reason due to Russian liable action (toward fullfilling the duty as supplier), however only because Pinoy are 'caving' in on third parties (in here US) pressure.
So the only thing that make Russia willing to refund Pinoy down payment is, (in my opinion) more to Political reasoning (if Russia still think keeping Pinoy relationship is still important). However from legal contractual situation, Russia should not be liable to do that.
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Russia can maybe also negotiate for other options, like a partly refund and the delivery of a smaller amount of Mi-17 helicopters for the Philippine fire department/police/SAR/Coast Guard.Balik bayad: DND eyes refund on botched P12.9B helicopter deal with Russia
The Department of National Defense (DND) is studying options on how to refund its P1.9-billion down payment for the botched acquisition of brand new helicopters from Russia.
I'm just looking this from Commercial contract point of view. Basically under usual commercial agreement, there's no 'legal' binding from Russian side to refund the downpayment as Philipines that decide to broke the contract. Also they are broke the contract not due anything reason due to Russian liable action (toward fullfilling the dutybas supplier), however only because Pinoy are 'caving' in on third parties (in here US) pressure.
So the only thing that make Russia willing to refund Pinoy down payment is, (in my opinion) more to Political reasoning (if Russia still think keeping Pinoy relationship is still important). However from legal contractual situation, Russia should not be liable to do that.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Something bit similar can happen to Indonesian Su-35 deal. I know Indonesian MinDef has not paying down payment yet, however if the contract already legally binding, then it is possible Russian to incured commercial penalty to Indonesia on contract breach.
Back to this Pinoy Mi-17V contract, it is more advance stage then Indonesian Su-35 agreement. This is already more or less in similar stage between Indonesia and Frenchie on Rafale. So the point that I like to put is becareful to breach any contract, especially if the breach due to pressure from third parties.
If Russian did not want to refund the downpayment (which is something within their contractual right), perhaps better Pinoy ask compensation from US on reduce value of S70 (which potential additional batch of S70 being ask as Mi-17V substitute).
Unless Russia as you have put, still try to enter Pinoy helicopter market through more 'civilian' usage.
Back to this Pinoy Mi-17V contract, it is more advance stage then Indonesian Su-35 agreement. This is already more or less in similar stage between Indonesia and Frenchie on Rafale. So the point that I like to put is becareful to breach any contract, especially if the breach due to pressure from third parties.
If Russian did not want to refund the downpayment (which is something within their contractual right), perhaps better Pinoy ask compensation from US on reduce value of S70 (which potential additional batch of S70 being ask as Mi-17V substitute).
Unless Russia as you have put, still try to enter Pinoy helicopter market through more 'civilian' usage.
They will try to argue for force majeure. I am not a lawyer but I've seen enough defence/security contracts in my day.
They entered into this contract knowing the risks with CAATSA (so they can't use external pressure from the US as a reason) though, and the only case they could possibly make at this stage is the war in Ukraine would have made it impossible for Russia to deliver those helicopters and support them. Of course, the Russians can just as easily deny this.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
This Pinoy article claim US ambassador offer USD 100 mio in Foreign Military Assistance for Philippines on getting US defense assets. Related to Mi-17V deal where Pinoy already paid 2 bio peso, this USD 100 mio in value is bigger as in present exchange rate around 5 bio+ peso.
However it is FMA thus it is open either in Soft Financing or Grant. I do believe Pinoy hope it's the later one, as their down payment to Mi-17V more or less difficult to be returned by the Russian (as the contract being breach by Philippines and not Russian side).
If this's FMF will be in the form of grant (at least some part of it), then it's practically US compensation to Philippines on breaking the contract with the Russian.
Add from Max Defense:
MaxDefense Philippines
US Ambassador to the Philippines MaryKay Carlson confirmed that the US Government has allocated US$100 million (approx Php5.8 billion) of Foreign Military Financing (FMF) for the Armed Forces of the...
www.facebook.com
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Jet fighter acquisition tops PH, Sweden talks’ agenda
MANILA – Sweden's offer to supply Saab-made JAS-39 "Gripen" multi-role fighters (MRF) to the Philippines was among the key topics discussed by Department of National Defense (DND) officer-in-charge Jose Faustino Jr. and Swedish Ambassador to Manila Annika Thunborg in a recent...
www.pna.gov.ph
Philippines new administration now continue the talk for new multirole fighters to augment their 12 FA-50P LCA/LIFT. In paper getting Gripen will benefit more on fleet maintenance and support due to similar engine (Sweden reported offer C/D which have similar engine with FA-50). Sweden clearly knows well that asside Thailand, Philippines is the best chances they got for Fighters project in the region.
Base on Philippines enthusiasts blogs and media, it is speculate eventually under Marcos administration, they want to add another 12 FA-50 and 12 Multirole Fighters. This considering how long PAF being neglected without proper Fighters force, is already good progress if being taken.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Filipinler T129 ATAK'ı beğendi ilave sipariş geldi
İlk T129 ATAK Taarruz ve Taktik Keşif Helikopterlerini kısa süre önce teslim alan Filipinler, ilave helikopter siparişinde bulundu.
www.savunmasanayist.com
Turkiye source claim Philippine will exercise their option after first batch of T129 ATAK helicopter deliver. There's not definitive number yet on this potential second batch, although it is expected for another 6 more.
Seems Philippines and Turkiye quite confident their T129 order will not have problem on engine export license, which has delayed initial delivery before.
Max Defence which usually quite update on latest development on Philippines defense, still quite careful on this potential 2nd batch order. Considering Pinoy track record on defense project by previous administrations, it is understandable to be cautious on this progress. Let's see if Marcos Jr administration will be more dependable on defense.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Yes, quite big order for DI, but also substantial increase on tactical airlift for PAF.
That's from DI FB page, aside 6 new procurement, DI also got 2 MRO contract for 2 NC-212i procured by PAF in 2014.
Still Pinoy defense enthusiasts now talk more on recent US official offer for F-16V. Max Defense clearly shown preference on F-16V over JAS39 Gripen as the ones being offer according to him is C/D version. Still he admits that one of preference over Gripen is price.
Max Defense talk on used F-16 to PAF as part of package on new F-16V. This to familiarize PAF for F-16 environment including preparing pilots lines. Intriguing deal if this is true, but in the end packages price due matter. One thing that Max seems avoid to talk (as I see this on other Pinoy sites that more preference with Gripen) is Gripen C/D use similar engine with PAF FA-50. For AF still in budget this is also one of consideration I believe.
That's from DI FB page, aside 6 new procurement, DI also got 2 MRO contract for 2 NC-212i procured by PAF in 2014.
Still Pinoy defense enthusiasts now talk more on recent US official offer for F-16V. Max Defense clearly shown preference on F-16V over JAS39 Gripen as the ones being offer according to him is C/D version. Still he admits that one of preference over Gripen is price.
Max Defense talk on used F-16 to PAF as part of package on new F-16V. This to familiarize PAF for F-16 environment including preparing pilots lines. Intriguing deal if this is true, but in the end packages price due matter. One thing that Max seems avoid to talk (as I see this on other Pinoy sites that more preference with Gripen) is Gripen C/D use similar engine with PAF FA-50. For AF still in budget this is also one of consideration I believe.
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Who knows.
The only "concrete" information that we have from various pronouncements of the former Defense Secretary Delfin Lorenzana is the F-16V is well beyond their budget, whatever that budget is and it has already a long list of customers.
For the F-16 option to work, the US will have to:
1) Cover the difference between what they can afford (~USD 1 bio and that in itself is still up in the air) and what they are lacking. Can be FMF.
2) Provide an interim solution (used BLK52s) to overcome the long delivery date
These is beyond pure finance or technology but in the area of geopolitics. With signing the ECDA, they would want something considerable in return.
www.pna.gov.ph
The only "concrete" information that we have from various pronouncements of the former Defense Secretary Delfin Lorenzana is the F-16V is well beyond their budget, whatever that budget is and it has already a long list of customers.
For the F-16 option to work, the US will have to:
1) Cover the difference between what they can afford (~USD 1 bio and that in itself is still up in the air) and what they are lacking. Can be FMF.
2) Provide an interim solution (used BLK52s) to overcome the long delivery date
These is beyond pure finance or technology but in the area of geopolitics. With signing the ECDA, they would want something considerable in return.
PH can't get F-16 jets for now due to budget woes
MANILA – Defense Secretary Delfin Lorenzana on Thursday said the Philippines is unlikely to acquire Lockheed Martin F-16 jet fighters for its multi-role fighter (MFR) program for now due to budgetary constraints."Sa ngayon, malabo pa dahil yun pera natin, yun perang nakalaan ay kung...
www.pna.gov.ph
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing.PAF has signed the follow-on order for 6 x NC212i with PTDI.
@Ananda @Sandhi Yudha
Here some additional details.
