Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates

[OPSSG]

Not an excuse for Pinoy administration that continue shown neglect to Defense.

Agreed. The fact is the PAF cannot maintain and safely operate its fleet of C-130Hs, all of which were transferred from the USA. Their C-130 crash rate or cannibalisation rate is the highest within ASEAN. They are the top helicopter crash experts within ASEAN too.

It is clearly not a long shopping list but limited funds; the Pinoys want American freebies that they can’t maintain. The PAF can’t raise, train and sustain even a C-130 fleet. How can the Pinoys pretend to be competent?

He comes from a middle class background, unlike Aquino, Macapagal and Marcos, as well as other poltical dynasties whose families have long been entrenched in politics and who've long had wealth. .

Duterte (born on 28 Mar 1945), in Maasin, was from Southern Leyte and while his family may not be as rich or powerful as some former Philippine Presidents, his father, Vicente Duterte, was the governor of Davao in the late 1950s, and Soledad Roa, a civic leader from Agusan del Norte.

Duterte has 3 children with his first wife Elizabeth Zimmerman—Paolo (incoming Davao vice mayor), Sara (Davao mayor) and Sebastian. The 25-year marriage of Zimmerman and Duterte was annulled in 1998. The President has another daughter, Veronica, with his current partner Honeylet Avanceña.

He comes from a powerful regional clan and his 1st wife is also from a rich clan — can we don’t buy into his false image of being middle class? Less buying into his propaganda bullshit, please?

 

[STURM]

Their C-130 crash rate or cannibalisation rate is the highest within ASEAN. They are the top helicopter crash experts within ASEAN too.

All this is a matter of record and was/is not in dispute. The current state of the AFP, limmited pocurement, operational and maintenance funds, as well as a shortage of trained support personnel is largely [not wholly] due to years of neglect on the part of the political leadership.

I also have no idea as to the reasons behind the high attrition rates of the PAF's rotary assets, whether due to human error, poor maintenance, lack of spares, bad weather, etc. I do know however that its rotary fleet has a high tasking, throughout the archipelego and that assets are often required to fly at night and in bad weather conditio despite only being VFR rated [at least until the arrival of the S-70s]. I also know that on numerous occasions over the past few decades that the timely arivval of PAF rotary assets in field has made a diffrence for PA and PMC troops.

while his family may not be as rich or powerful as some former Philippine Presidents

Which is exactly the point I was drving at.

Less buying into his propaganda bullshit, please?

How and where did this occur? I wasn't suggesting he came from an improvished background or that him or that his family were completely without means. I did acknowledge he's been in politics for a long time.

Just because I don't have a go at him doesn't mean I'm enamoured of him or take a lot of what he says without a large dose of scepticism.

 

[Ananda]

After all as you maintain, "small' matter of defense will be the swing votes".

Well they're already done that. The opposition candidate already talk in media how they are going to defend Philippines SCS EEZ and inlets/rocks what ever they can be call. They already talk in media how they're going to beef up the defense. They're already call Duterte administration failing on defending Philippines interest against China, thus they are definitely selling defense idea. For that Duterte try to answer that, shown they're also not neglecting defense. That's why I do afraid talking on defense by them this close to election, can make it just another Political gimick. Hope not.

So it's already Political issue. It's not as big as domestic issue or Economics, but it's already Political issue. They know all the votes of every issue and segment matter cause it will be tight election.

Domestic issues is indeed the main focus of ordinary voters which is a point I've been trying to make.

Do I dispute that ? I agree the defense is smaller issue, however again it's a political issue in the election. No matter how small the constituents that regards SCS, defense and sovereignty as the primary movers on voting, with tight election they can't abandoned a population segment.

wasn't suggesting he came from an improvished background or that him or that his family were completely without means. I did acknowledge he's been in politics for a long time.

Calling a Duterte family just a middle class background is sorry to say, as if you agree with his image propaganda that he's just an average Pinoy he's trying to sell.

Duterte family basically since his father time already control Davao. That's why I said he's coming from Political family circles. Duterte might be not as rich and has national influence as Marcos, Macapagal, Aroyo or Aquino. However they're Political family nonetheless, eventough more on local Davao level.

So he's definitely not coming from middle class background.

 

[STURM]

Well they're already done that. The opposition candidate already talk in media how they are going to defend Philippines SCS EEZ and inlets/rocks what ever they can be call.

Well; given it's as hot topic and is a matter of great concern; he would say that wouldn't he? However; has he actually gone into the details of what they plan to get; how they plan to fund it and how they intended on undoing years of neglect on the AFP? No; because it's bread and butter issues that are important to the the majority of voters.

but it's already Political issue.

Sorry ..... It has always been a political issue since the days when the Spratlys first started making the headlines in the 1990's.

Do I dispute that ?

Did say you disputed it? What I have been saying and trying to point out that although the need for a strong defence is agreed upon by most voters; their main focus is job security; healthcare/education and rising food prices. I also said that the perspective one gets depends on who one asks : a working class person who is struggling to make ends meet or someone who views things differently because he/she is more financially secure?

First of all; I have zero to little idea.; nor am I interested in how he attempts to portray himself. Secondly with regards to ''middle class'' I guess it depends on one's personal definition doesn't it? Let me rephrase it it a different manner to avoid being labelled as someone who falls for the image of himself which he presents : '''Yes he has been in politics for along time and so has his family; and he comes from a family with the connections and wealth but unlike other families such as the Macapagals, Aquinos and Marcos; his family; whilst still a political dynasty by the very definition of the word; is not as powerful or wealthy as the other families or dynasties.......''

 

[Ananda]

However; has he actually gone into the details of what they plan to get; how they plan to fund it and how they intended on undoing years of neglect on the AFP?

That's why I'm afraid this latest defense Project can turn into just another Political gimmick. Duterte administration close to election suddenly shown interest to beef up Pinoy Armed Forces, after neglecting it most of it's administration time. Only doing patching up Projects for their defense.

Again if this's only a gimmick from either faction, close to election, then it come back to Pinoy elites political faction. Do they have genuine concern to Philippines defense ? If yes they will do sincere effort to rebuild Pinoy Armed Forces gradually and not sporadically like subsequent Pinoy administration until now.

What I have been saying and trying to point out that although the need for a strong defence is agreed upon by most voters; their main focus is job security; healthcare/education and rising food prices.

That's where the main battle for this election will be. However defense issue again matter for some portion of population. Eventough relatively smaller, then those who think more on domestic and Economics.

He's on his way out, there is no gurantee his sucessor will be elected next year and it's not as if more votes will be gained from defence spending.

has always been a political issue since the days when the Spratlys first started making the headlines in the 1990's.

Those statements of yours, sorry bit contradictory in opinion. If you agree it's always Political issue, why you question more votes can be gained from defense ? Increasing defense Projects is going to matter to some voters eventough it's small. Again with tight election all votes segment is matter even it's relatively small.

Secondly with regards to ''middle class'' I guess it depends on one's personal definition doesn't it?

I only question when you still claim him as middle class. By any definition (even in Advance Economy) Duterte born from and raised by not a middle class family.

 

[STURM]

They're already call Duterte administration failing on defending Philippines interest against China, thus they are definitely selling defense idea.

It's called politics .... The need to score points. They did the same with Ramos over Scarborough Shoals; the same with Aquino over Chinese incursions; the same with his mother for allegedly being soft with the Malaysians and they will do the same with the next President over some future incident.

If yes they will do sincere effort to rebuild Pinoy Armed Forces gradually and not sporadically like subsequent Pinoy administration until now.

There is a acute realisation that much more needs to be done given the changing political environment and the actual state of the AFP which for decades was focused on internal security but whether they actually have the political will to commit to a sustained level of funding over a certain period to enable the AFP to better deal with external threats is a completely different matter and will depend on domestic politics; the state of the economy in the coming years; the mood of the population [whose main focus is bread and butter issues]; Chinese actions and whether the threat posed by internal threats subsides or gets worse.

My opinion is that instead of sexy stuff like Scorpene and Brahmos which can come later; they need to first improve on their ability to meet current peacetime commitments. In the case of the PAF [this of course is the PAF thread] it still faces the major task of supporting troops engaged on COIN duties throughout the archipelago [on any single day troops will have to be supported in Luzon, Mindanao and the Sulu area]; it badly needs more utility platforms and fixed wing transports and it needs adequate maintenance/support funding. Ideally it would get a squadron's worth of MRCAs [a type it can afford to operate/maintain]; cash is of course an issue here ; plus the need to decide on what to focus on. It also needs MPAs and UASs; which to me should have been the priority instead of a handful of attack helis from Turkey/Italy.

Those statements of yours, sorry bit contradictory in opinion. If you agree it's always Political issue, why you question more votes can be gained from defense ? Increasing defense Projects is going to matter to some voters even though it's small. Again with tight election all votes segment is matter even it's relatively small.

I'll explain you why it isn't ''contradictory''. Voters are concerned about the Chinse incursions and they want a leadership to adopt a stronger foreign policy to stand up for sovereign issues. They don't want a Philippines which is unable to doing anything in response to Chinse actions. Doesn't mean they actually welcome increased defence spending if it's going to impact on healthcare/education and development.

Two related issues but slightly different....

only question when you still claim him as middle class. By any definition (even in Advance Economy) Duterte born from and raised by not a middle class family.

I repeat what I said previously : First of all; I have zero to little idea.; nor am I interested in how he attempts to portray himself. Secondly with regards to ''middle class'' I guess it depends on one's personal definition doesn't it? Let me rephrase it it a different manner to avoid being labelled as someone who falls for the image of himself which he presents : '''Yes he has been in politics for along time and so has his family; and he comes from a family with the connections and wealth but unlike other families such as the Macapagals, Aquinos and Marcos; his family; whilst still a political dynasty by the very definition of the word; is not as powerful or wealthy as the other families or dynasties.......''

 

[Ananda]

The fact is the PAF cannot maintain and safely operate its fleet of C-130Hs, all of which were transferred from the USA. Their C-130 crash rate or cannibalisation rate is the highest within ASEAN. They are the top helicopter crash experts within ASEAN

I do hope Pinoy administration after this will have more Political will for their own defense. I do hope this defense Projects trend by Duterte in last hours of his term will follow by whoever administration after him. Whether from his camp and choosen successor or his opposition.

Hope Pinoy due choose the administration that best care for Pinoy development on all sectors including defense. Like it or not, we are in this region living in tough time on many aspects.

Doesn't mean they actually welcome increased defence spending... Two related issues but slightly different....

As we both non Pinoy, we can only assess what Pinoy population really wants and cares for their votes. We can only deducted based what we read or who we talk with. My conversation with some Pinoy colleagues indicating defense is part of materials thing for some segment. Thus eventough below from Domestic and Economics, defense and Philippines sovereignty do matter for some of them. For that it's voting gathering matters, thus can be Political gimmick to sell.

the case of the PAF; this of course is the PAF thread; it still faces a major task of supporting troops engaged on COIN duties throughout the archipelago; it badly needs more utility platforms and transports and it needs adequate maintenance/support funding.

Yes, that is why getting second squadron of FA-50 actually better for PAF, if they also given fund to increase CGI coverage and ISTAR capabilities. It's better for them to have 4-6 C-130J to replace their badly worn out C-130H. The fund better to be used developing sustainment for FA-50 support then 6-8 F-16V or Gripen C/D. It can be build gradually even with limited budget, which Pinoy actually have enough resources on that. Again the question always do Pinoy Politicians really have genuine concern for their Armed Forces development, or just playing politics each time election coming.

It's not just matter on Pinoy politicians, in overall ASEAN actually I can only see Singaporean Politicians that have better understanding for sustainable defense development. Even Vietnamese communist party understand why good defense actually one of important support factor for Economics development. Even with SBY and Jokowi in Indonesia always talk on n sustainable defense, it is still not done in systematic ways. Still Pinoy Political neglect is in different level altogether, even for ASEAN standard.

 

[STURM]

As we both non Pinoy, we can only assess what Pinoy population really wants and cares for their votes. We can only deducted based what we read or who we talk with.

I don't claim to be an expert but like I mentioned previously I'm a frequent traveler there and have family there. I'm pretty aware of the concerns of many ordinary Filipinos and the fact that other Filipinos who are in the middle to upper class bracket view things very differently.

Yes, that is why getting second squadron of FA-50 actually better for PAF, if they also given fund to increase CGI coverage and ISTAR capabilities.

In lieu of not being able to afford Gripen yes; provided it has some level of air to air capability which goes beyond Sidewinder and a targeting/navigation pod. Aquino got some flak in the past from detractors because he bought something with a minimal air to air capability. IMO the F-50 was the ideal choice. For the future I mention Gripen because as it stands there is no way the PAF can afford to run F-16s and the only possible option as I see it is Gripen; assuming cash was available.

The fund better to be used developing sustainment for FA-50 support then 6-8 F-16V or Gripen C/D.

That's true but one can also ask is when; if not now; will the PAF be able to finally make the transition from a light attack/trainer to a MRCA? If the government is unable or unwilling to provide the needed procurement, operational and maintenance funds now; will it actually do so the in coming years?

Again the question always do Pinoy Politicians really have genuine concern for their Armed Forces development, or just playing politics each time election coming.

Quite a few politicians are former AFP people so they understand the constraints the AFP operates under. Ultimately politicians will be politicians and they will factor in a whole host of factors relating to national and party issues; as well as the mood of the public; before making a decision.

I can only see Singaporean Politicians that have better understanding for sustainable defense development..

It helps that most if not all Singaporean politicians have previous NS service and thus have a better understanding of defence issues compared to their counterparts in other countries and that it's ingrained in the national psyche on the importance of having a strong defence. This is not the case with other ASEAN countries; which take things easier or are complacent on account of their countries being much larger with strategic depth and having larger populations. Take Malaysia for example; some years back OPSSG mentioned something along the lines about Malaysia only spending on defence when times were good or when there was extra money. He was right. Another issue is that unlike Singapore; various other ASEAN countries for decades were faced with a counter insurgency issue and could only allocate so much for external defence.

Even Vietnamese communist party understand why good defense

Well Vietnam fought a long war with the French; followed by the Americans; it invaded Kampuchea and faced a protracted counter insurgency there; it fought a sharp but vicious border war with China and later had naval clashes with China as well. In previous centuries they fought wars and were invaded by China too. They've long understood the importance of a strong defence.

 

[Ananda]

ADEX 2021: KAI reveals more details about FA-50 upgrade plans

Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) has revealed more details about the planned upgrade of its FA-50 Fighting Eagle light combat aircraft, 60 examples of which are...

www.janes.com

I always like FA-50 due to it's architecture design to be developing further. Considering PAF has to develop and relearn fast jets operatibility (after years of neglect), having 2 or even 3 Sq of FA-50 will better then adding Gripen let alone Viper.

It's not good for Pinoy fanboys ego, but it will be good for PAF availability readiness. However I do afraid Politicians will mess it up. Just like this talk of Rafale and F-15EX for TNI-AU. Ideally for TNI-AU combo of F-16 family plus FA/TA-50 should be the ideal combination for their operatibility sustainment. It's just not flashy enough to sell politically.

 

[STURM]

Yes you're probably right. Instead of transiting to a squadron's worth of MRCAs the PAF would probably be better off expanding the F-50 fleet and taking it from there. I have no idea what the PAF's preference is however.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The general manager of TAI, confirmed that the first batch of six T129B helicopters the government procured from Turkey would be delivered on Saturday 8 January.

The Philippines has ordered six helicopters and two more are set to arrive next year while the last two will reach home in 2024.

1st batch of attack helicopters from Turkey arrives

After a series of delays, an official of the Turkish Aerospace Inc. (TAI) confirmed that the first batch of six T129B helicopters the government procured from Turkey will finally arrive in the

globalnation.inquirer.net

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Lorenzana: Plans to buy 32 more Black Hawks, 6 OPVs make headway; more attack planes, helis in pipeline

The government’s plan to buy 32 more Black Hawk helicopters for the Air Force and six offshore patrol vessels (OPV) for the Navy made significant headway, while plans are afoot to acquire more attack planes and choppers, Defense Secretary Delfin Lorenzana said. “Last night, I received a notice...

tribune.net.ph

Down payment for PAF's Russian heavy-lift choppers out soon: DND

MANILA – Defense Secretary Delfin Lorenzana said the down payment for the Philippine Air Force (PAF)'s Russian-sourced heavy-lift helicopter acquisition program will be released soon."Also, the down payment for the heavy-lift helicopters, I think will be paid soon so that we will have the...

www.pna.gov.ph

Philippines MinDef put couple announcement recently. Few days ago on the budget approval for more Black Hawks and 6 OPV (Austal Philippines seems going to bag the deal).

Yesterday they announced that the DP for MI-17V will be commencing soon. This is quite interesting also to see how US going to react under CAATSA. Eventough it's much smaller scale then Indian deal, but it's still interesting to watch US reaction.

Will US give leeway if they also already got bigger deals? Will Biden going to remake Trump CAATSA deal in the time of Russian-Ukraine tension increasing? Or will US give leeway for countries in Asia that they deemed important for China containment (thus override Russian factor)?

Anyway by end of his term, Duterte seems getting more serious for Philippines Armed Forces rebuilding. Something that he should done 6 years ago. Hope this not just another election gimmick (for the benefit of his chosen successors).

It seems that a contract will be signed soon.
|"The Philippines is to order 32 additional Lockheed Martin S-70i Black Hawk utility helicopters to add to the 16 already acquired (of which one was recently lost in an accident)."|

That will be enough to replace all the old Bell UH-1 / Bell 205 still in service with the Philippine Airforce.

Philippines to order more Black Hawk helos

The Philippines is to order 32 additional Lockheed Martin S-70i Black Hawk utility helicopters to add to the 16 already acquired (of which one was recently lost in an...

www.janes.com

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The Philippines will receive at least one new Cessna C-208 aircraft equipped for intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) missions. Its unclear yet for which branch, but i expect its for the airforce.
The $19,8 million contract includes an optional second aircraft.

Philippines to receive new Cessna C-208 ISR aircraft

The Philippines will receive at least one new Cessna C-208 aircraft equipped for intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) missions.

www.janes.com

 

[koxinga]

The contract for the additional 32 Blackhawks are formally signed.

Quite an achievement by any standards given the sizeable quantity acquired as well as the speed which it was executed (i.e. shortly after the first 16 was delivered). Most Philippines acquisitions takes years to reach contract signing and are straw purchases with very low quantities.

The question is what will happen to their MIL-17 deal, which was reportedly signed and slated for deliveries this year.

PH govt signs deal for 32 more Black Hawk helicopters (cnnphilippines.com)

 

[Ananda]

https://www.facebook.com/117625771741422/posts/1770466169790699

From Max Defense FB. Seems the first batch of 2 T129B ATAK helicopter already land in Philippines using 2 TAF A400M. This long awaited helicopters being delayed due to US export license on the engines.

 

[Ananda]

The question is what will happen to their MIL-17 deal, which was reportedly signed and slated for deliveries this year.

Scrapping deal to acquire Russian helicopters unlikely: DND

MANILA – Department of National Defense (DND) Secretary Delfin Lorenzana on Wednesday said the contract for the 17 Russian-made Mil Mi-17 heavy-lift helicopters is unlikely to be scrapped for now despite the ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine."No, we do not see any likelihood of...

www.pna.gov.ph

Philippines MinDef officially still saying the contract with Russia for Mi-17V on track. No sign it will be cancelled. Lorenzana practically say, we have pay the down payment, and the deal will still be follow.

So basically Philippines challenge CAATSA and present financial sanction from US and West to Russia. If Philippines still want to do this, how US going to handle India that have much larger defense projects with Russia.

This can potentially put US to choose between Russian sanction and China containment strategy.

 

[koxinga]

Philippines MinDef probably has no right to abrogate the contract directly and this deal was done at the insistence of the current President as a pre-condition to buying the Blackhawks.

In all likelihood, their SecDef is playing for time; the Presidential election in mid year and this will be the problem of the next President and SecDef. I won't be surprised if they cancel it because:

1) there is a reasonable chance that the Russians might be unable to build the helicopters anyway due to the sanctions
2) the CAASTA threat is real, especially light of Ukraine
3) it would test Ph-American relationships

If 1) occurs, it would be a good, legal reason to terminate the contract and demand a refund on the downpayment, which I doubt the Russians will return.

 

[Ananda]

If #1 happen, then the sanctions score one the main aims. To cripple Russia military industrial complex. However if not then it is mean Russia military industrial complex prove to be quite resiliance and self sufficient.

If #1 did not happen, then the chances of #2 will going to come. CAATSA basically can give financial blockade (on US financial market) toward any banks that conduct financial transaction with Russia on defense trade. US will off course want every nation on this planet to take CAATSA seriously. Philipines has to weight in the cost, but question remains for country like India and Vietnam.

 

[koxinga]

Before Ukraine, the Americans have been selective in deploying CAASTA. With the sanctions, which exist independently of CAASTA, it will make any transactions, whether capital acquisitions or on-going maintenance even more difficult.

For India/Vietnam, I don't know. One alternative are the eastern European countries and Belarus has been doing good business in overhauling SUs.

 

[Ananda]

Those Belarus MRO now also being put under sanction. This create problem with TNI-AU for example, as before they use Belarus MRO for maintenance and upgrade job of their Flankers.

India and Vietnam both have larger domestic capacity for Flankers MRO, however it will be interesting how they are going handle parts transaction.

I'm seeing potential India doing MRO for Asia Pacific Russian made assets. However the question back to how Indian Banks deal with Russians for parts procurement. That's the real test for US.