Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
The current seasprites are getting some upgrades avionics comes and software etc to see them through till their replacement.
Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
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Do you have a source for that?
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
Pretty sure it it in the DCP2019 will check after work.
But to what extent of an upgrade not sure ... from memory it was mainly it fix a few things and exactly when again will have to re read dates and exact wording...
But to what extent of an upgrade not sure ... from memory it was mainly it fix a few things and exactly when again will have to re read dates and exact wording...
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In the DCP/19 page 34 - Other Marine Investments
207.4 Upgrades to the current fleet of SH-2G(I) Seasprite helicopters, addressing hardware and software obsolescence of aircraft components, to ensure they are fit for purpose for the remainder of their service lives;
207.4 Upgrades to the current fleet of SH-2G(I) Seasprite helicopters, addressing hardware and software obsolescence of aircraft components, to ensure they are fit for purpose for the remainder of their service lives;
I think that you have to read those papers in conjunction with the report on the SH-2G(NZ) Super Seasprite availability problems. I do have a copy of the report and will find the title and hopefully a link for it. IIRC the cost for the 10 Australian Sprites and the simulator etc., was $284 million which was a pretty good deal. The next point is that the GOTD was adverse to spending money and political capital on Defence. They talked up how strong they were on defence but when push came to shove they went out of their way to avoid spending money on it.
Maybe they should not have put $15B over 3 years into Christchurch following 22 Feb 2011 when the first papers about a SH-2G replacement were being prepared to go through Cabinet. A quake that stalled a return to surplus by 3 years. Maybe they should not have worried about the Post GFC debt balloon and the 3 quarters of recession they inherited in coming in late 2008 a month after the Lehman Bros and Fanny Mac & Mae meltdowns. In 2011 saw a $16 Billion deficit peak with decreasing revenues. Even if they wanted to it would have been an issue with the the ability to borrow globally heavily restricted and the one place you could get easy money on their terms is a country you are not that fond of NG.
Yea, when you look back over the last 40 years, they have been the leading underfunders of defence.
Because of the period between 1992 and 1995 when it did drop way too much under Ruth Richardson MinFin and Warren Cooper DefMin seeing a 20% cut in FY92 alone. And then in 2011-2012 under Wayne Mapp in nominal terms - but I strongly suggest there were mitigating circumstances noted above. Labour did well under Bib Tizard and National improved greatly under Max Bradford and in my view it was a shame he did not take us into the 2000's with his determination to follow through on the DWP/97.
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
What he said ... lol
Going by theSeaSprites are due to be replaced by 2028 -only 7 years away
andDCP 2019 - Page 33 said:
which has no dates given and given that it is only 7 years away till they get replaced... one would assume it will be done soon... However, I have learnt to "not anticipate the order..."DCP 2019 - Page 33 said:
Didn't the SeaSprites we sold to Peru get similar upgrades??? and possibly whatever fixes/upgraded mods they made to them get done to the (I)'s fix and replace a few things here and there. hopefully done soon(ish) rather that later(ish) else they will just push their replace dates back even more... :-/
I would think that the replacement project will have already been started up by now. There probably isn't anything in the public domain yet because NZDF may possibly still be determining what it requires in the replacement. They will also be looking at a prospective time line as well to ensure that the first deliveries occur around say 2027 - 2008. This is all presumption of course.What he said ... lol
Going by theSeaSprites are due to be replaced by 2028 -only 7 years away
Ah yes that was something learnt really quickly or one received corrective counselling. I saw more than one BCT trainee taking the GI's pet rocks for a run around the parade ground at Tamaki so that they could see the sights.... However, I have learnt to "not anticipate the order..."
I had already learnt that lesson due to previous service in the RNZAF. Back then the counselling involved lots of language and the GSI never repeated himself once as the culprit ran around the parade ground with their SLR above their heads. I don't know because I didn't follow it up.
IIRC they went back to Kaman for a DLM and General Dynamics for an avionics and cockpit refresh before heading to Peru. They did spend about USD$10m per airframe doing all that but I am not sure they got upgraded to the same configuration as the ex RAN ones we bought.
There are indicative clues though NG. Buried in the footnotes of the recent SOPV RFI are a reference to the NH-90 and the MH-60R.
CJohn
Active Member
So the RFI for the SOPV closed submissions on the 14th June, it will be interesting to see who submitted proposals, you would think Irving may offer a modified version of the Harry DeWolf, considering the RFI requires a minimum range of 12000nm and endurance of 50 days for a complement of 100. The Harry Dewolf has a range of 6800nm, 30 days endurance for a max complement of 87. Barring that, most other FYI requirements seem quite similar to purpose, polar class 5, ice breaking in 1m first year sea ice, medium Helo and aft hanger etc.
www.scribd.com
en.wikipedia.org
The new Chilean icebreaker conforms and exceeds many of the RFI requirements but is a large vessel at 13000t, max speed of only 15 knots and the aft working deck layout does not conform to FYI requirements. I think this design is by Vard marine in Canada.
en.wikipedia.org
Damon Shipyards among others may also have been interested in submitting a proposal but I have no idea what design they would put forward.
Others may have an idea of which shipyards and design partners would likely show an interest.
I would hope this is not delayed.
Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel RFI | PDF | Request For Proposal | Product Lifecycle
Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel RFI
Harry DeWolf-class offshore patrol vessel - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
The new Chilean icebreaker conforms and exceeds many of the RFI requirements but is a large vessel at 13000t, max speed of only 15 knots and the aft working deck layout does not conform to FYI requirements. I think this design is by Vard marine in Canada.
Chilean icebreaker Almirante Viel - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Damon Shipyards among others may also have been interested in submitting a proposal but I have no idea what design they would put forward.
Others may have an idea of which shipyards and design partners would likely show an interest.
I would hope this is not delayed.
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Former DefMin Ron Mark said last year (prior to the election in 2020), "the next project that will be for the next term of government will be the maritime helicopter fleet replacement". In which now, he is referring to this term's government 2020-2023. But there is no mention of this project yet on the MoD website (apart from the previous "maritime helicopter replacement project" (MHCP), for the Seasprite SH-2G(I), which is still listed). Presumably then, this new project is one that the government recently said they will be "reviewing" (whatever that means - I take it to mean anything from reviewing the scope to kicking it down the road for another year or so)?
Whatever the government decides it will need to factor in managing the current SH-2G(I) Seasprites. The Chief of Air Force Andrew Clark said in June last year:
"Given that New Zealand is one of the few operators of the Seasprite, Clark admits that the primary challenge is obsolescence management until a replacement is due sometime in the late 2020s. To ameliorate this, the RNZAF works with both local and US suppliers.
“We have a little while to go before replacing them so we do need to keep them going. We got into this knowing that obsolescence management was going to be a challenge, but we also got a lot capability for what we paid.”
But what of the replacement options? In October last year, Dr Peter Greener in Line of Defence made four suggestions:
1. The Leonardo AW101 multi-role helicopter (Merlin).
2. The NH90 NFH Naval Frigate Helicopter.
3. The MH-60R.
4. The AW159 Wildcat.
Personally any of the above would be great contenders, and have their pros and cons. The AW101 would be a fantastic heavy lift/long range and endurance ASW/ASuW capability but possibly too large and too expensive for NZ to operate. The NFH90 builds upon existing NZDF NH90 commonality, but unsure due to the challenges with operating the NH90 whether that would be the best option for the future as it is still a "new" type (with all that entails)? The MH-60R would be ideal in terms of interoperability with the RAN and USN in our region, and is a known quantity. The AW159 is also rather capable (and possibly more affordable) but there are no similar operators "down under" near us so we would be reliant on having to source spares (and training) half-way around the world which adds costs to the NZDF's small operating budget.
Interestingly Line of Defence seems to take issue with these helicopter's sizes and whether they fit various RNZN ship hangers etc. I would say tailor the future helicopter to the future Frigates and future (S)OPV and OPV replacements as a consideration, not the current as they will be phased out in time (apart from modifying existing ship hangers where practical in the interim). I also say this because of the following.
The usually insightful and well connected "Point of Order" political blog made comment in 2019 that the Bell UH-1Y could also be a potential contender to replace the Seasprite. In its favor the UH-1Y is "marinized", has folding rotors, digital cockpit, the airframe itself has been extended (fit more into it), has FLIR, TopOwl, can carry a range of weapons on pylons (as well as forward firing machine guns) and can carry a load of 3000kg (although I'm not yet clear if that is underslung load or overall total). It is in wide use with the USMC so again, Asia-Pacific area wise, we would have interoperability and common training interests. It uses the same engines as the Super Seasprite and the MH-60R so for maintenance purposes the NZDF would already be familar with supporting that type.
But the one thing the UH-1Y isn't, is it isn't fitted out for naval ASW/ASuW operations. So it isn't really a true Seasprite replacement and I hope despite the sales pitch by Bell, that the UH-1Y isn't taken seriously by the MoD and NZDF for that role.
However ...
Dr Peter Greener, also, in a review of views of the Defence Capability Plan DCP 2019, he makes mention of the following:
"Do you think there is anything missing from the Plan?
Greener: Whilst it is pleasing to see such a strong commitment to capability renewal across the three services, the one area where there may be a gap is in rotary aviation. There will be an increase of more than 25% in Army service personnel, and, ultimately, nine ships capable of embarking helicopters, with two sealift ships capable of carrying additional utility helicopters. Coupled with an expectation of an increase in tempo of operations, perhaps consideration should be given not just to the replacement of the maritime helicopters, but to increasing the total number of operational helicopters?"
Now indirectly related to Dr Greener's above thoughts, some of us here have previously brought this up before, which is rather than the NZDF operating one type of maritime helicopter across it's Frigates, OPV's, Sealift Vessel, AOR, Diving Support vessel (and future various replacement vessels), would it be better for the NZDF to operate two types of maritime helicopter?
After all what's the point of using ASW/ASuW equipped Seasprites (or future AW101/NFH90/SH-60R/AW159's) on the non-combatants (including the OPV's)? Currently the Seasprites when embarked on the non-combatants are carrying out replenishment or AoG type roles (eg underslung loads to resupply govt agencies on off-shore islands etc).
Because if the future RNZN fleet is 9 ships capable of embarking helicopters, hypothetcially if all were to be at sea at once the NZDF would need more than 9 helicopters (it would, using ADF guidelines, need up to 3x as many eg potentially anywhere between 9-27 helos, not including 1 or 2 for pilot/crew training/conversion, to sustain operations without failing) ... and realistically NZ can't afford that - it would cost the entire defence budget if not some more! Plus ideally the Sealift vessel and its replacement, and the proposed LPD would need a few utility/troop carrying helicopters between them just for themselves (that's not including using the non-marinised existing NH90's, many of which would be needed for land use supporting the Army on deployment and internal NZ use).
So what if the solution is to purchase two types of maritime helos?
1. Seasprite replacement "equivalents" (NFH90/SH-60R/AW159) for the Frigates - assuming two Frigates that's (ideally) up to 6 helos (so probably 4-5 in reality thanks to tight-fisted governments ... obviously 3 future Frigates then 1-3 more in total).
2. Something like several UH-1Y's for the OPV's and in particular the Sealift vessel (and its replacement) and potential LPD (and AOR and Diving Support vessel when required etc)? I'm assuming that a UH-1Y is cheaper than a NFH90/SH-60R/AW159 (a quick google search suggests they are, but I won't quote figures as it obviously depends on fit outs and support costs as part of the project etc).
Another option instead of UN-1Y's could be, as others have suggested here in recent times, other more basic "Seahawk" equivalents such as refurbished/second hand S-70's or SH-60F's etc.
Which and whatever is preferred, I believe the RNZN needs two types of maritime helos. If these ideas have merit then so it's matter for MoD (and NZDF) to articulate why to the government of the day. Because so far that flexible thinking seems to be lacking.
In other news, the USMC is trialing using UH-1Y's to drop sonobuoys for ASW maneuvers. Granted, the UH-1Y wouldn't have the capability to attack a submarine (presumably they would call in another suitably equipped asset to do so), but could it be an added (and relatively cost effective) "force multiplier" capability for a small maritime force such as the RNZN to aid screening efforts as part of a joint task force?
In other far-off possibility news (!), Bell promotes the UH-1Y as "sharing 85% commonality with the AH-1Z". Just mentioning this (for maintainer support & "value for money") if a future defence capability review recommends options on attack/reconnaissance helicopters for the (potential) future LPD and NZDF "Marine Corps" type operations supporting soldiers both at sea and on land.
See:
Bell UH-1Y - The Ultimate Utility Helicopter
And also scroll down to Specifications (and the PDF downloads).
Whatever the government decides it will need to factor in managing the current SH-2G(I) Seasprites. The Chief of Air Force Andrew Clark said in June last year:
"Given that New Zealand is one of the few operators of the Seasprite, Clark admits that the primary challenge is obsolescence management until a replacement is due sometime in the late 2020s. To ameliorate this, the RNZAF works with both local and US suppliers.
“We have a little while to go before replacing them so we do need to keep them going. We got into this knowing that obsolescence management was going to be a challenge, but we also got a lot capability for what we paid.”
But what of the replacement options? In October last year, Dr Peter Greener in Line of Defence made four suggestions:
1. The Leonardo AW101 multi-role helicopter (Merlin).
2. The NH90 NFH Naval Frigate Helicopter.
3. The MH-60R.
4. The AW159 Wildcat.
Personally any of the above would be great contenders, and have their pros and cons. The AW101 would be a fantastic heavy lift/long range and endurance ASW/ASuW capability but possibly too large and too expensive for NZ to operate. The NFH90 builds upon existing NZDF NH90 commonality, but unsure due to the challenges with operating the NH90 whether that would be the best option for the future as it is still a "new" type (with all that entails)? The MH-60R would be ideal in terms of interoperability with the RAN and USN in our region, and is a known quantity. The AW159 is also rather capable (and possibly more affordable) but there are no similar operators "down under" near us so we would be reliant on having to source spares (and training) half-way around the world which adds costs to the NZDF's small operating budget.
Interestingly Line of Defence seems to take issue with these helicopter's sizes and whether they fit various RNZN ship hangers etc. I would say tailor the future helicopter to the future Frigates and future (S)OPV and OPV replacements as a consideration, not the current as they will be phased out in time (apart from modifying existing ship hangers where practical in the interim). I also say this because of the following.
The usually insightful and well connected "Point of Order" political blog made comment in 2019 that the Bell UH-1Y could also be a potential contender to replace the Seasprite. In its favor the UH-1Y is "marinized", has folding rotors, digital cockpit, the airframe itself has been extended (fit more into it), has FLIR, TopOwl, can carry a range of weapons on pylons (as well as forward firing machine guns) and can carry a load of 3000kg (although I'm not yet clear if that is underslung load or overall total). It is in wide use with the USMC so again, Asia-Pacific area wise, we would have interoperability and common training interests. It uses the same engines as the Super Seasprite and the MH-60R so for maintenance purposes the NZDF would already be familar with supporting that type.
But the one thing the UH-1Y isn't, is it isn't fitted out for naval ASW/ASuW operations. So it isn't really a true Seasprite replacement and I hope despite the sales pitch by Bell, that the UH-1Y isn't taken seriously by the MoD and NZDF for that role.
However ...
Dr Peter Greener, also, in a review of views of the Defence Capability Plan DCP 2019, he makes mention of the following:
"Do you think there is anything missing from the Plan?
Greener: Whilst it is pleasing to see such a strong commitment to capability renewal across the three services, the one area where there may be a gap is in rotary aviation. There will be an increase of more than 25% in Army service personnel, and, ultimately, nine ships capable of embarking helicopters, with two sealift ships capable of carrying additional utility helicopters. Coupled with an expectation of an increase in tempo of operations, perhaps consideration should be given not just to the replacement of the maritime helicopters, but to increasing the total number of operational helicopters?"
Now indirectly related to Dr Greener's above thoughts, some of us here have previously brought this up before, which is rather than the NZDF operating one type of maritime helicopter across it's Frigates, OPV's, Sealift Vessel, AOR, Diving Support vessel (and future various replacement vessels), would it be better for the NZDF to operate two types of maritime helicopter?
After all what's the point of using ASW/ASuW equipped Seasprites (or future AW101/NFH90/SH-60R/AW159's) on the non-combatants (including the OPV's)? Currently the Seasprites when embarked on the non-combatants are carrying out replenishment or AoG type roles (eg underslung loads to resupply govt agencies on off-shore islands etc).
Because if the future RNZN fleet is 9 ships capable of embarking helicopters, hypothetcially if all were to be at sea at once the NZDF would need more than 9 helicopters (it would, using ADF guidelines, need up to 3x as many eg potentially anywhere between 9-27 helos, not including 1 or 2 for pilot/crew training/conversion, to sustain operations without failing) ... and realistically NZ can't afford that - it would cost the entire defence budget if not some more! Plus ideally the Sealift vessel and its replacement, and the proposed LPD would need a few utility/troop carrying helicopters between them just for themselves (that's not including using the non-marinised existing NH90's, many of which would be needed for land use supporting the Army on deployment and internal NZ use).
So what if the solution is to purchase two types of maritime helos?
1. Seasprite replacement "equivalents" (NFH90/SH-60R/AW159) for the Frigates - assuming two Frigates that's (ideally) up to 6 helos (so probably 4-5 in reality thanks to tight-fisted governments ... obviously 3 future Frigates then 1-3 more in total).
2. Something like several UH-1Y's for the OPV's and in particular the Sealift vessel (and its replacement) and potential LPD (and AOR and Diving Support vessel when required etc)? I'm assuming that a UH-1Y is cheaper than a NFH90/SH-60R/AW159 (a quick google search suggests they are, but I won't quote figures as it obviously depends on fit outs and support costs as part of the project etc).
Another option instead of UN-1Y's could be, as others have suggested here in recent times, other more basic "Seahawk" equivalents such as refurbished/second hand S-70's or SH-60F's etc.
Which and whatever is preferred, I believe the RNZN needs two types of maritime helos. If these ideas have merit then so it's matter for MoD (and NZDF) to articulate why to the government of the day. Because so far that flexible thinking seems to be lacking.
In other news, the USMC is trialing using UH-1Y's to drop sonobuoys for ASW maneuvers. Granted, the UH-1Y wouldn't have the capability to attack a submarine (presumably they would call in another suitably equipped asset to do so), but could it be an added (and relatively cost effective) "force multiplier" capability for a small maritime force such as the RNZN to aid screening efforts as part of a joint task force?
In other far-off possibility news (!), Bell promotes the UH-1Y as "sharing 85% commonality with the AH-1Z". Just mentioning this (for maintainer support & "value for money") if a future defence capability review recommends options on attack/reconnaissance helicopters for the (potential) future LPD and NZDF "Marine Corps" type operations supporting soldiers both at sea and on land.
See:
Bell UH-1Y - The Ultimate Utility Helicopter
And also scroll down to Specifications (and the PDF downloads).
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I agree with with you in regard to Bib Tizard and Max Bradford, but the tendency has been for the government of the day and particularly NZ conservative governments (but not exclusively) to use financial excuses to cut defence, but when the financial situation improves the defence budget does not, just maybe a token increase , while every other budgets go back to normal. This over time has lead us to the present situation.
t68
Well-Known Member
@recce.k1,
I was under the impression both the MH-60R&S were out of production as was Wildcat
But what of the replacement options? In October last year, Dr Peter Greener in Line of Defence made four suggestions:
1. The Leonardo AW101 multi-role helicopter (Merlin).
2. The NH90 NFH Naval Frigate Helicopter.
3. The MH-60R.
4. The AW159 Wildcat.
I was under the impression both the MH-60R&S were out of production as was Wildcat
But what of the replacement options? In October last year, Dr Peter Greener in Line of Defence made four suggestions:
1. The Leonardo AW101 multi-role helicopter (Merlin).
2. The NH90 NFH Naval Frigate Helicopter.
3. The MH-60R.
4. The AW159 Wildcat.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Ok not taking sides, but spend an hour by making a list of currently operational core (major) capabilities (fleets, types etc) in each NZDF force component (ie: NZ Army, RNZAF, RNZN) then jot down beside it the Govt that ordered the capability.. the importance is who ordered it & therefore committed $$$... think you'd be surprised!
Curious, what is the projected service life for the current NH90's in NZ service ? Depending of course on what the set requirements and capabilities are stipulated, you would think the NFH would be up there on the list from a support and logistic POV.
Cheers
Cheers
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I would honestly hope that the NZDF thinks long and hard about this before deciding to adopt (or develop and adopt) one of the NFH configurations for the NH90. As I understand it, of the current RNZN vessels only Canterbury and Aotearoa can fit a NH90-sized helicopter into the hangar. If the Seasprite replacement is to happen towards the end of this decade, but the current OPV's and frigates are not due to be replaced until some time in the 2030's, there would likely be several years where there would be not platforms but Canterbury or Aotearoa which would have helicopters embarked.
In addition, increased hangar space would be required for all new construction for RNZN vessels, but that would still require years of both preparation, and then actual construction, before embarking helicopters.
There would of course be concerns about maintenance and support issues, as well as Cpfh, but my greater concern would be about the NZDF actually having a gap where they could not make use of naval helicopters because one platform cannot be supported by the other.