Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[Gracie1234]

In reality, i doubt the government would fund any further refinement capability or storage of fuels. The future focus should be on how do we build the resilient hydrogen and electrical network. I doubt we will be importing traditional fuel-powered vehicles by 2030, I believe the UK already has that in place. When that kicks over, NZ will be a net energy exported instead of an importer.
It would be great to see at least some movement towards a national security strategy.

 

[ngatimozart]

In reality, i doubt the government would fund any further refinement capability or storage of fuels. The future focus should be on how do we build the resilient hydrogen and electrical network. I doubt we will be importing traditional fuel-powered vehicles by 2030, I believe the UK already has that in place. When that kicks over, NZ will be a net energy exported instead of an importer.
It would be great to see at least some movement towards a national security strategy.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating and the jury is well out on that at the moment.

 

[Gibbo]

In reality, i doubt the government would fund any further refinement capability or storage of fuels. The future focus should be on how do we build the resilient hydrogen and electrical network. I doubt we will be importing traditional fuel-powered vehicles by 2030, I believe the UK already has that in place. When that kicks over, NZ will be a net energy exported instead of an importer.
It would be great to see at least some movement towards a national security strategy.

The only point I'd make is that the lack of actual 3 months storage issue is a very high risk right now and needs a more immediate resolution. Over time such storage could arguably be modified / transferred into alternatives storage.

 

[KiwiRob]

Just came accross this item - today in Stiff news and SUnday Times. DIrect ref is Northport - Vision for growth

Northport plans to acquire a floating dock to handle vessels up to 250m long. Mention is made of servicing Nz Navy vessels, rail ferries and other domestic shipping. THe facility would be run and managed by private business interests.

The video is interesting, some mistakes, the housing close to North Port is very expensive, Marsden Cove is priced well out of reach for port workers and naval families (if the navy base moved North). I also think a floating drydock is a mistake, we've had them in the past, where are they now? If we build a proper drydock that's a permanent fixture, it can't be sold a the whims of the govt, regional council or operator.

Refining NZ is almost certain to confirm the conversion of the adjoining oil refinery an import only facility next month.
They have indicated that part of their existing site would become available for redevelopment.

Vote on turning Northland's Marsden Pt oil refinery into storage terminal only due next month - NZ Herald

The Government has also recently approved funding for construction of a new railway spur line to Marsden Point. This will make Northport development plans even more attractive to many.

Comment: Latest investment to grow rail for Northland - NZ Herald

Allowing Marsden Point to close as a refinery is a massive strategic blunder on behalf of the government, it should not be allowed to happen.

I'm also not a fan of moving POA to Marsden, it's just going to be a massive clusterfuck, what other country would move a strategic asset like POA from it's largest city to a remote town many hours away?

 

[KiwiRob]

And moving Devenport Naval Base up there would make sense as well. They should move RNZAF Base Whenuapai up there too, ensuring that the runway is long enough for a fully laden P-8A Poseidon to take off from on a calm stink hot day.

I also have a problem with the shutting down of the refining capability at Marsden Point because it significantly reduces our resilience. That's something that we don't have a lot of at the moment and I am given to understand the we don't have 3 months of FOL (Fuels, Oils, & Lubricants) supplies in NZ. Whilst we do have some in the Japanese supply, they are of no use to us if we cannot get them here. There are to many assumptions that we can hire tankers as and when required and that they will be able to sail merrily between the Japanese supply and here with impunity. If anything the last 16 months have taught us that world merchant shipping can be disrupted quite dramatically and to our disadvantage.

I don't see any reason to move the Navy North. The amount of infrastructure they would have to build would cost far more than the sale of Devonport to developers, plus there all the people that would have to be relocated, it's not just Navy families, it's all the dockyard workers, there families and other business that rely on the Base remaining in Auckland. And then there's relocating Kauri Pt, where's that going to go?

A better place to move the Air Force to is Auckland International. There's already a runway in place that can operate a fully fueled up P8. The government could fund the second runway as part of the NZ Up project so long as they can have land for a annex to be built, hangers for the P8's and No. 6 Squadron.

 

[KiwiRob]

The shutdown of Marsden Point refinery would be a good opportunity to review our onshore fuel, oils & lubricants reserve storage.
Removing the refinery equipment would make a deal of space available to build a Strategic Reserve storage facility at Marsden Point.
It could be financed by a very small (in terms of fractions of a cent per litre) levy.
Unfortunately, another large construction project is probably not what the Northland economy needs a.t.m., however it could be a couple of years before it started as the site would need to be cleared first.

Why would a large construction project not be something Northland would want? Large construction projects bring jobs, the finished project will need people to man it, that would somewhat negate the loss of jobs at the refinery.

 

[Pepe le pew]

The video is interesting, some mistakes, the housing close to North Port is very expensive, Marsden Cove is priced well out of reach for port workers and naval families (if the navy base moved North). I also think a floating drydock is a mistake, we've had them in the past, where are they now? If we build a proper drydock that's a permanent fixture, it can't be sold a the whims of the govt, regional council or operator.




Allowing Marsden Point to close as a refinery is a massive strategic blunder on behalf of the government, it should not be allowed to happen.

I'm also not a fan of moving POA to Marsden, it's just going to be a massive clusterfuck, what other country would move a strategic asset like POA from it's largest city to a remote town many hours away?

With respect I think you may be a little out of date with property valuation data when comparing Devonport with the Marsden/Bream Bay area.

Marsden Cove is located around a marina/canal facility developed by the Hopper family and targeted at the premium end of the market (sections from $800K - $1.4M).
There is a good supply of more affordable, existing housing towards One Tree Point and slightly further afield towards Ruakaka. There is also a large area of greenfield sites within a 5-6km radius of Northport.
In comparison, I note that the average price for a 3-4 bedroom Devonport property is now @ $2.2m.

Houses and properties for sale in Devonport | Trade Me Property

I don't know the going rate of of a naval base in the same locale, but I suspect it may be more than you think. The proceeds from the sale of these high value defense assets would certainly go a long way towards the cost of new infrastructure in a lower cost, industrial/commercial zoned area.

In regards to support services, there are already a number of local providers with a proven history of working with the Navy (e.g. MacKay, Culham Engineering, NZ Ship Repair, Circa Marine Engineering). Existing providers (and their staff) will choose to relocate (or not) depending on the viability of such a move and their individual circumstances.
I'm not sure retaining the Base at Devonport to ensure ongoing local employment should be the prime consideration.

I agree with your comments in regards to the relocation of Ports of Auckland to Marsden Point (though it is now only @ 2 hours travel by road) However, I can see both Tauranga and Northport organically growing their share of the trade, over time, as POA becomes more constrained. An interview with the outgoing Ports of Tauranga CEO for those interested in this subject:

Shipping out: leading positive change at the Port of Tauranga | RNZ

 

[Owly]

The

With respect I think you may be a little out of date with property valuation data when comparing Devonport with the Marsden/Bream Bay area.

Marsden Cove is located around a marina/canal facility developed by the Hopper family and targeted at the premium end of the market (sections from $800K - $1.4M).
There is a good supply of more affordable, existing housing towards One Tree Point and slightly further afield towards Ruakaka. There is also a large area of greenfield sites within a 5-6km radius of Northport.
In comparison, I note that the average price for a 3-4 bedroom Devonport property is now @ $2.2m.

Houses and properties for sale in Devonport | Trade Me Property

I don't know the going rate of of a naval base in the same locale, but I suspect it may be more than you think. The proceeds from the sale of these high value defense assets would certainly go a long way towards the cost of new infrastructure in a lower cost, industrial/commercial zoned area.

In regards to support services, there are already a number of local providers with a proven history of working with the Navy (e.g. MacKay, Culham Engineering, NZ Ship Repair, Circa Marine Engineering). Existing providers (and their staff) will choose to relocate (or not) depending on the viability of such a move and their individual circumstances.
I'm not sure retaining the Base at Devonport to ensure ongoing local employment should be the prime consideration.

I agree with your comments in regards to the relocation of Ports of Auckland to Marsden Point (though it is now only @ 2 hours travel by road) However, I can see both Tauranga and Northport organically growing there share of the trade, over time, as POA becomes more constrained. An interview with the outgoing Ports of Tauranga CEO for those interested in this subject:

Shipping out: leading positive change at the Port of Tauranga | RNZ

biggest problem with Tauranga is it is a full container load port but the required empties are in Auckland and the road connection between the two is …lets say inadequate and expensive. In anycase Fonterra dictate load ports as per their logistics. Imports will always go to the population centre Auckland.

 

[MrConservative]

I don't know the going rate of of a naval base in the same locale, but I suspect It may be more than you think. The proceeds from the sale of these high value defense assets would certainly go a long way towards the cost of new infrastructure in a lower cost, industrial/commercial zoned area.

It is not just HMNZS Philomel / DNB which would be on the block but also the North yard at Ngataringa Bay where the Navy Depot is located. Ten years ago these two sites had a QV was around $600m. Back then also the 4ha land the Navy owns at Fort Caughley (Narrowneck) was worth over $75m and would comfortably get double that now (there is a single 1920's Bay Villa across the road at 125 Vauxhall Road sold 2 months ago for $3.25m and two doors down from Fort Caughley the house at 122 Vauxhall Road with harbour views sold last year for $5.25m). Kauri Point over at Birkenhead ten years ago was worth around $80m again that could be doubled in todays market. Between those four Navy locations on the North Shore it is spending over $30 million in rent and the upkeep of old and ageing properties. The market realisation of the Navy properties on the North Shore would be easily surpass $1 Billion in the current market extrapolating values ten years ago.

As for Whenuapai's value a 31 hectare block of bare land adjacent to the base sold last year for $28.5 million, which would give a land value of around $300m. This lands previous owner Neil Construction got knocked back in the Environment Court over curtailing noise at the base with a view to developing it as residential housing and sold it on. However if the base land was rezoned as residential medium level density the value would rise significantly.

 

[ngatimozart]

I don't see any reason to move the Navy North. The amount of infrastructure they would have to build would cost far more than the sale of Devonport to developers, plus there all the people that would have to be relocated, it's not just Navy families, it's all the dockyard workers, there families and other business that rely on the Base remaining in Auckland. And then there's relocating Kauri Pt, where's that going to go?

MrC and Pepe le pew have answered WRT the real estate costs. WRT the workforce they would be given the opportunity to relocate to Whangarei because that's part of industrial law. I would think that many would give it serious consideration because of traffic congestion and gridlock in Auckland. Members of my own whanau have moved out of Auckland precisely for that reason. Another reason will be those wanting to get on the property ladder for the first time and it's nigh on impossible in Auckland now. People with a $100,000 deposit are struggling. For those who rent, rent is exorbitant. Those who choose to stay in Auckland finding alternative employment shouldn't be a problem because NZ unemployment is at 4.5% and employers organisations are starting to allege that we have reached peak employment.

A better place to move the Air Force to is Auckland International. There's already a runway in place that can operate a fully fueled up P8. The government could fund the second runway as part of the NZ Up project so long as they can have land for a annex to be built, hangers for the P8's and No. 6 Squadron.

5 Sqn is being relocated to Ohakea. The infrastructure works for their move should be completed next year. I would avoid the RNZAF being based at Auckland International Airport if at all possible, because the costs will not be cheap. The airport company will charge like a wounded bull for space. Plusy ou would be unable to arm the aircraft there. The service personnel will have to live in expensive accommodation and NZDF will not subsidise it to any reasonable degree. It already charges extortionate rents for sub par accommodation. Mangere and environs are no longer a cheap part of the city.

 

[KiwiRob]

Kauri point won't be sold, if the defense force move out it will remain as a reserve, it will never be built on. Ditto for the navy facilities around Narrow Neck, they were sold to Ngati Whatua who leased them back to the govt as part of there treaty settlement, they plan on bulldozing the lot, and [stupidly IMO) have been given approval to intensify the area with buildings up to 5 stories high, a lot of buildings should have heritage protection but this was removed in the unitary plan. Many of the buildings in the deport at Ngataringa are refurbished or relatively new. I don't see the navy leaving Devonport during my lifetime. That's a big chunk of your 1 billion that's not going to be sold or not even owned by the govt to sell.

 

[KiwiRob]

MrC and Pepe le pew have answered WRT the real estate costs.

They didn't answer the real estate costs because a lot of that land has already been given away for treaty settlements of is part of a reserve. They guessed.

 

[ngatimozart]

They didn't answer the real estate costs because a lot of that land has already been given away for treaty settlements of is part of a reserve. They guessed.

They answered the costs in general and Mr Conservative would be pretty well much on the ball with his reply. I will definitely bow to his expertise in the matter there. I know some land has been returned as part of the Treaty Settlement process but as to where and how much I don't know. I believe it includes the married quarter patch above Philomel.

 

[MrConservative]

They didn't answer the real estate costs because a lot of that land has already been given away for treaty settlements of is part of a reserve. They guessed.

The above sites are not the Torpedo Bay parcel, or the parcel at Fort Takapuna or the sport field at Ngataringa Bay or the 253 houses in Belmont transferred in 2012 nor the other houses transferred in 2018 on Lake Road, Montgomery Ave, Alamein Ave, Egremont St, and Corrella Rd.

The 80ha parcel of land at Kauri Point occupied by the RNZN is not under the Reserve Act and is zoned Defence Area under the Defence Act.

 

[chis73]

I think maybe we should just try to keep it simple for the timebeing. Sounds like you guys are over-complicating it. Lets start with just the dry dock. and worry about the rest later. Northport seems to have done the groundwork a lot better than Picton (the next most likely location) on the dry dock so far. If or when the road/rail link to Whangarei is improved, then worry about upgrading the port and moving the naval base.

With respect to the naval base, I expect that it would be a very gradual move. Start with one or two ships, no need to rush it. Which ships though? I guess a move to Whangarei would be most attractive to sailors with young families to support - so you are not looking at the most junior people. Perhaps the OPVs or Manawanui? Or maybe some of the larger ships to clear room at Devonport (so perhaps Aotearoa or Canterbury).

 

[KiwiRob]

The above sites are not the Torpedo Bay parcel, or the parcel at Fort Takapuna or the sport field at Ngataringa Bay or the 253 houses in Belmont transferred in 2012 nor the other houses transferred in 2018 on Lake Road, Montgomery Ave, Alamein Ave, Egremont St, and Corrella Rd.

The 80ha parcel of land at Kauri Point occupied by the RNZN is not under the Reserve Act and is zoned Defence Area under the Defence Act.

If the Defense Force moves from Kauri point you can bet on it that it will become an SNL and added the the existing reserve which surrounds it, it will never be turned over to developers for housing. Fort Takapuna and Fort Caughley are essentially the same place, it's not owned by Defense, it's leased from Ngati Whatua. As I said I doubt the navy will move anywhere, anytime soon.

 

[Gibbo]

Hmmm, possibly no big surprise to many... Department of Defence looking to buy New Zealand naval ships

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

Hmmm, possibly no big surprise to many... Department of Defence looking to buy New Zealand naval ships

They have been looking and thinking about them for some time...

The Royal New Zealand Navy was supplied with four of them by British shipbuilders Brooke Marine. Two have since been decommissioned.

ummm that was the old Lake class the new ones were built here in NZ...???

 

[Hone C]

They have been looking and thinking about them for some time...

ummm that was the old Lake class the new ones were built here in NZ...???

Clearly the Irish press are about as competent in basic research relating to defence news as their New Zealand counterparts...

 

[chis73]

The NZ MoD have recently released, in a weirdly very random event, the cabinet papers relating to the ex-Australian Seasprite purchase in 2012/13 (why now?). Link here. It's interesting to see the argument presented to cabinet. In my opinion, the advice seems very poor, especially in regard to selling the existing SH-2G(NZ) models. It's noted that there were already serious issues with spare parts (p.20 of the pdf), in my mind they should have kept the old Seasprites if they were gong to buy the ex-Australian ones (and from the evidence presented, the MoD seem to have already made up their mind to do that). Also, I would have hoped that the fact that there was only one simulator left in the entire world might have triggered a few alarm bells, but clearly no one in Cabinet cared. Also, there is no business case presented for replacing the SH-2G(NZ) models with brand new helicopters (AW159 Wildcat for example, would have been in production about that time). The options are only to upgrade the sensors/comms on the existing Seasprites or to buy the Australian ones.

Given that the SH-2G(NZ) models were having obsolescence issues (with avionics, sensors & comms) after approximately10 years service, I wonder how the current ones are doing? Most of those systems fitted to the Australian models would have been pretty new circa 1995 - I wonder how that translates to 2021, or potentially 2035? Do the current Seasprites need an upgrade to get them to 2027 (or 2035)?

----

I also came across an interesting Youtube presentation relating to the Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel project, from one of the scientists at the NZ Defence Technology Agency. It is a bit maths/stats heavy (it is a presentation on the Southern Ocean sea states given to an Australian branch of the Royal Institution of Naval Architects). Link here. It certainly shows why a new vessel (preferably much larger) is needed. The OPVs seem unsafe to conduct that mission (it seems they pitch too much, and may run into minibus-sized chunks of ice above their ice belt).

On the same channel there are some more interesting videos on the Australian new Antarctic icebreaker (Nuyina) and the Hunter class frigates.