Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
The current seasprites are getting some upgrades avionics comes and software etc to see them through till their replacement.
Do you have a source for that?The current seasprites are getting some upgrades avionics comes and software etc to see them through till their replacement.
I think that you have to read those papers in conjunction with the report on the SH-2G(NZ) Super Seasprite availability problems. I do have a copy of the report and will find the title and hopefully a link for it. IIRC the cost for the 10 Australian Sprites and the simulator etc., was $284 million which was a pretty good deal. The next point is that the GOTD was adverse to spending money and political capital on Defence. They talked up how strong they were on defence but when push came to shove they went out of their way to avoid spending money on it.The NZ MoD have recently released, in a weirdly very random event, the cabinet papers relating to the ex-Australian Seasprite purchase in 2012/13 (why now?). Link here. It's interesting to see the argument presented to cabinet. In my opinion, the advice seems very poor, especially in regard to selling the existing SH-2G(NZ) models. It's noted that there were already serious issues with spare parts (p.20 of the pdf), in my mind they should have kept the old Seasprites if they were gong to buy the ex-Australian ones (and from the evidence presented, the MoD seem to have already made up their mind to do that). Also, I would have hoped that the fact that there was only one simulator left in the entire world might have triggered a few alarm bells, but clearly no one in Cabinet cared. Also, there is no business case presented for replacing the SH-2G(NZ) models with brand new helicopters (AW159 Wildcat for example, would have been in production about that time). The options are only to upgrade the sensors/comms on the existing Seasprites or to buy the Australian ones.
Given that the SH-2G(NZ) models were having obsolescence issues (with avionics, sensors & comms) after approximately10 years service, I wonder how the current ones are doing? Most of those systems fitted to the Australian models would have been pretty new circa 1995 - I wonder how that translates to 2021, or potentially 2035? Do the current Seasprites need an upgrade to get them to 2027 (or 2035)?
Maybe they should not have put $15B over 3 years into Christchurch following 22 Feb 2011 when the first papers about a SH-2G replacement were being prepared to go through Cabinet. A quake that stalled a return to surplus by 3 years. Maybe they should not have worried about the Post GFC debt balloon and the 3 quarters of recession they inherited in coming in late 2008 a month after the Lehman Bros and Fanny Mac & Mae meltdowns. In 2011 saw a $16 Billion deficit peak with decreasing revenues. Even if they wanted to it would have been an issue with the the ability to borrow globally heavily restricted and the one place you could get easy money on their terms is a country you are not that fond of NG.They talked up how strong they were on defence but when push came to shove they went out of their way to avoid spending money on it.
Yea, when you look back over the last 40 years, they have been the leading underfunders of defence.They talked up how strong they were on defence but when push came to shove they went out of their way to avoid spending money on it.
Because of the period between 1992 and 1995 when it did drop way too much under Ruth Richardson MinFin and Warren Cooper DefMin seeing a 20% cut in FY92 alone. And then in 2011-2012 under Wayne Mapp in nominal terms - but I strongly suggest there were mitigating circumstances noted above. Labour did well under Bib Tizard and National improved greatly under Max Bradford and in my view it was a shame he did not take us into the 2000's with his determination to follow through on the DWP/97.Yea, when you look back over the last 40 years, they have been the leading underfunders of defence.
Do you have a source for that?
What he said ... lolIn the DCP/19 page 34 - Other Marine Investments
207.4 Upgrades to the current fleet of SH-2G(I) Seasprite helicopters, addressing hardware and software obsolescence of aircraft components, to ensure they are fit for purpose for the remainder of their service lives;
andDCP 2019 - Page 33 said:Maritime Helicopter Replacement
199. The eight existing Seasprite SH-2G(I), the last of their type, will reach the end of their service lives in the late 2020s. A new fleet of maritime helicopters will be acquiredin order to support the naval patrol, sealift and combat capabilities.
200. Maritime helicopters offer surveillance, air transport and combat capabilities. Initial thinking on the replacement helicopters will need to determine the primary role of the aircraft, to ensure they are appropriately suited to complement planned replacements for the patrol, sealift and combat capabilities.
Indicative dates:
Industry engagement commences – 2020
Request for tender – 2024
Introduction into Service – 2028
Indicative capital cost:
More than $1b
which has no dates given and given that it is only 7 years away till they get replaced... one would assume it will be done soon... However, I have learnt to "not anticipate the order..."DCP 2019 - Page 33 said:207.4 Upgrades to the current fleet of SH-2G(I) Seasprite helicopters, addressing hardware and software obsolescence of aircraft components, to ensure they are fit for purpose for the remainder of their service lives;
I would think that the replacement project will have already been started up by now. There probably isn't anything in the public domain yet because NZDF may possibly still be determining what it requires in the replacement. They will also be looking at a prospective time line as well to ensure that the first deliveries occur around say 2027 - 2008. This is all presumption of course.What he said ... lol
Going by theSeaSprites are due to be replaced by 2028 -only 7 years away
Ah yes that was something learnt really quickly or one received corrective counselling. I saw more than one BCT trainee taking the GI's pet rocks for a run around the parade ground at Tamaki so that they could see the sights. I had already learnt that lesson due to previous service in the RNZAF. Back then the counselling involved lots of language and the GSI never repeated himself once as the culprit ran around the parade ground with their SLR above their heads.... However, I have learnt to "not anticipate the order..."
I don't know because I didn't follow it up.Didn't the SeaSprites we sold to Peru get similar upgrades??? and possibly whatever fixes/upgraded mods they made to them get done to the (I)'s fix and replace a few things here and there. hopefully done soon(ish) rather that later(ish) else they will just push their replace dates back even more... :-/
IIRC they went back to Kaman for a DLM and General Dynamics for an avionics and cockpit refresh before heading to Peru. They did spend about USD$10m per airframe doing all that but I am not sure they got upgraded to the same configuration as the ex RAN ones we bought.Didn't the SeaSprites we sold to Peru get similar upgrades???
There are indicative clues though NG. Buried in the footnotes of the recent SOPV RFI are a reference to the NH-90 and the MH-60R.I would think that the replacement project will have already been started up by now. There probably isn't anything in the public domain yet because NZDF may possibly still be determining what it requires in the replacement. They will also be looking at a prospective time line as well to ensure that the first deliveries occur around say 2027 - 2008. This is all presumption of course.
I agree with with you in regard to Bib Tizard and Max Bradford, but the tendency has been for the government of the day and particularly NZ conservative governments (but not exclusively) to use financial excuses to cut defence, but when the financial situation improves the defence budget does not, just maybe a token increase , while every other budgets go back to normal. This over time has lead us to the present situation.Because of the period between 1992 and 1995 when it did drop way too much under Ruth Richardson MinFin and Warren Cooper DefMin seeing a 20% cut in FY92 alone. And then in 2011-2012 under Wayne Mapp in nominal terms - but I strongly suggest there were mitigating circumstances noted above. Labour did well under Bib Tizard and National improved greatly under Max Bradford and in my view it was a shame he did not take us into the 2000's with his determination to follow through on the DWP/97.
The MH-60S is out of production but the Romeo is still being built, India ordered 24 in 2020.@recce.k1,
I was under the impression both the MH-60R&S were out of production as was Wildcat
But what of the replacement options? In October last year, Dr Peter Greener in Line of Defence made four suggestions:
1. The Leonardo AW101 multi-role helicopter (Merlin).
2. The NH90 NFH Naval Frigate Helicopter.
3. The MH-60R.
4. The AW159 Wildcat.
Ok not taking sides, but spend an hour by making a list of currently operational core (major) capabilities (fleets, types etc) in each NZDF force component (ie: NZ Army, RNZAF, RNZN) then jot down beside it the Govt that ordered the capability.. the importance is who ordered it & therefore committed $$$... think you'd be surprised!I agree with with you in regard to Bib Tizard and Max Bradford, but the tendency has been for the government of the day and particularly NZ conservative governments (but not exclusively) to use financial excuses to cut defence, but when the financial situation improves the defence budget does not, just maybe a token increase , while every other budgets go back to normal. This over time has lead us to the present situation.
I would honestly hope that the NZDF thinks long and hard about this before deciding to adopt (or develop and adopt) one of the NFH configurations for the NH90. As I understand it, of the current RNZN vessels only Canterbury and Aotearoa can fit a NH90-sized helicopter into the hangar. If the Seasprite replacement is to happen towards the end of this decade, but the current OPV's and frigates are not due to be replaced until some time in the 2030's, there would likely be several years where there would be not platforms but Canterbury or Aotearoa which would have helicopters embarked.Curious, what is the projected service life for the current NH90's in NZ service ? Depending of course on what the set requirements and capabilities are stipulated, you would think the NFH would be up there on the list from a support and logistic POV.
Cheers