Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Sandhi Yudha]

Iver is still in the running for Frigate contenders since it's the most cost effective and because the Danes offered full fabrication in PAL Surabaya yard.
French has been offering Belhara and FREEM and Dutch offer their new Omega design..but if they (Mindef) really come to fruition in Frigates, I still see Iver as the leading candidate.

Belhara class...thats the Frégates de taille intermédiaire program to replace the La Fayette class, right?
Looks ugly but capable with more firepower than the SIGMA 10514, if delivered COMPLETELY and not in FFBNW configuration. Its smaller than the other candidates and maybe because of that also financially more suitable for our limited defence budget.

We will see how it ends...

 

[Ananda]

Belhara class...thats the Frégates de taille intermédiaire program to replace the La Fayette class, right?

Yep..that's what Naval Group bring in last Indodefence:
Naval Group presents its latest innovations in Indodefence 2018

Sigma 10514 basically is light frigates and not a Frigate standard. It's close more to Corvettes or even OPV classification.
The French and Italian did offer FREEM, however they seem understand that for political reason, Indonesia wants to build the Frigate domestically. FREEM will be more challenging (economical and technical) to be build (completely) by PAL compared to Iver or Belhara.

Belhara will be bit smaller and less capable than Iver..but considering the specs, not that much.
If any design that can challenge Iver, it's Belhara.
It's going to back in my opinion on How Far each supplier will provide complete support to PAL on doing complete fabrication domestically. Odense does not have their own yard anymore, thus they only sell design and technical support. If Naval Group can match Odense offered, that will be close competition in my opinion for both design.

 

[ChestnutTree]

I am actually quite curious as to why Damen did not offer a variant of the De Zeven Provincien class instead of the OMEGA frigate. I would assume a design that's already operational that's also being offered for the Canadian frigate competition would make more sense than a clean sheet design.

 

[Ananda]

am actually quite curious as to why Damen did not offer a variant of the De Zeven Provincien class instead of the OMEGA frigate.

If we see this old article by Xavier during last Indodefence,
IndoDefence 2018: Damen Unveils 6000 Tons 'Omega' Frigate
You can see that Damen stated Omega is based on DZP..even if you see on what German choose on their MKS 180 with Damen design (see in Dutch ships thread).. there's similarities between that and Omega design, alltough MKS 180 is slightly bigger than Omega.

Seems Omega is the design based that Damen used for their Frigates projects on the offering.

 

[Redlands18]

Yep..that's what Naval Group bring in last Indodefence:
Naval Group presents its latest innovations in Indodefence 2018

Sigma 10514 basically is light frigates and not a Frigate standard. It's close more to Corvettes or even OPV classification.
The French and Italian did offer FREEM, however they seem understand that for political reason, Indonesia wants to build the Frigate domestically. FREEM will be more challenging (economical and technical) to be build (completely) by PAL compared to Iver or Belhara.

Belhara will be bit smaller and less capable than Iver..but considering the specs, not that much.
If any design that can challenge Iver, it's Belhara.
It's going to back in my opinion on How Far each supplier will provide complete support to PAL on doing complete fabrication domestically. Odense does not have their own yard anymore, thus they only sell design and technical support. If Naval Group can match Odense offered, that will be close competition in my opinion for both design.

Just to clear something up @Ananda its actually FREMM which stands for FRigate European Multi Mission

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Just to clear something up @Ananda its actually FREMM which stands for FRigate European Multi Mission

The Belh@rra Class is actually the FTI ( Frégates de taille intermédiaire) program to replace the La Fayette class. But from which i understand, France will also give the La Fayette Class some kind of Mid-Life Update.

Video: Watch the French Belharra frigate destroy a ship in combat simulation

Naval Group Refines Design of the FTI / Belharra Next Generation Frigate


Edit: yes, the 1st, 3rd and 4th of the class will get a Mid-Life Update.
French Navy Names 3 La Fayette-class Frigates Selected for Mid-Life Update - Naval News

 

[Ananda]

Just to clear something up @Ananda its actually FREMM which

Thanks, I always miss type on that one..

 

[Ananda]

The Belh@rra Class is actually the FTI ( Frégates de taille intermédiaire) program to replace the La Fayette class.

Singapore current Frigates is also based on La Fayette, but like Damen that seems already move on to Omega based design for their export offering, Naval Group also seems want to optimised Belhara for their export offering.

So eventough some of La Fayette will still be maintain by French (they are mostly still have plenty Hull life left considering most come in late nineties), but on the marketing side, I don't think Naval group still want to offer them for export market.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

There are claims on the internet that the government of Indonesia has canceled the acquisition of the second batch of Type 209/1400s (Improved Chang Bogo Class) from South-Korea, using these links as proof:
대우조선해양 "인니 정부, 잠수함 3척 건조계약 취소 통보X"

Et si l'Indonésie s'offrait des Rafale et des sous-marins Scorpène ?
How true is this news?

 

[Ananda]

There's still speculation, Prabowo's him self in local media when asked about Rafale acquisition stated that it's what French hopes and not necessarily a decision from us yet.

So this contract for next batch of Submarine..there are talks before between PAL and Naval Group on potential licensing Scorpene just like what India and Brazil did. Still talk with DSME on second batch of DSME 1400/Changbogo continues.

We have not heard anything official yet. Thus I believe after the Cabinet put official decisions then we can see what direction of partnership we will do for those assets procurement.

In my opinion, the 'rumours' of PAL and MinDef not happy with DSME (on Submarine) and Damen (on light frigate) partnership was already circulated for some time. However if the talk on French media on Rafale, Scorpene or Gowind, I 'just' tend to see only DSME 1400 next batch being replaced by Scorpene, that has possibility.

However on Gowind and Rafale, I still not really see it. Gowind not really improvement to Damen 10514. The 48 Rafale means same thing as replace procurement for Su-35 and F-16V..if we're going to replace Su-35 with additional F-16V is more possible than Rafale replacing procurement for Both F-16V and Su-35.
Our Air Force basically love F-16. Thus putting money on something that much more expensive (as India example shown) compare to what TNI-AU already know and have experience and expertise to maintain (F-16 family)..I just don't see it.

 

[tonnyc]

There are claims on the internet that the government of Indonesia has canceled the acquisition of the second batch of Type 209/1400s (Improved Chang Bogo Class) from South-Korea, using these links as proof:
대우조선해양 "인니 정부, 잠수함 3척 건조계약 취소 통보X"

Et si l'Indonésie s'offrait des Rafale et des sous-marins Scorpène ?
How true is this news?

Sounds like a bunch of buzzers making unwarranted speculation to get clicks.

It's of course true that the Indonesian Defense Minister is visiting France. It may even be true that he may personally prefer Rafales and Scorpenes, but so what? The previous defense minister also prefers Su-35 and Kilo, and neither has gone thru.

If the DSME 209 is canceled then all the prepwork PAL invested for domestic production is wasted. That's about $1.8 billion investment. Heads will have to roll before this happens.

If something is to be canceled in order to get something French, it's more sensible to cancel the Su-35 and shift to Rafales and retire all the Flankers. But heads will also have to roll for this to happen, as the Russophiles in the armed forces will resist this.

It's possible a "buy a bit of everything and keep everyone happy" approach will be what the Defense Ministry ends up with, but if that's the case then 1. Prabowo will have proven himself to be no different from Ryamizard Ryacudu (previous minister of defense) and 2. where is the money coming from?

 

[Ananda]

If the DSME 209 is canceled then all the prepwork PAL invested for domestic production is wasted. That's about $1.8 billion investment. Heads will have to roll before this happens.

Just need clarification on this matter a bit, The official communication from PAL stated that what they have build on Submarine facility is for building a submarine up to 2000+dwt. Based on that, in my opinion the facilities is not build solely for DSME 209 1400, but can be adjusted for another submarine design.

Granted that if 'say' PAL decided to stop partnership with DSME and move to Partnership with Naval Group on Scorpene, there will be some adjustments on the facilities, but does not mean the whole Previous Investment going to drain. Unless if MinDef decided to build the Submarine not in PAL facilities, then there will be big political cost to pay (not only PAL Investment going to drainage).

So, if there's potential on French deal, it's more on Scorpene compared to Gowind or even Rafale. Just compared on previous discussion that PAL already have with Naval Group on potential PAL licensing Scorpene.

 

[tonnyc]

Just need clarification on this matter a bit, The official communication from PAL stated that what they have build on Submarine facility is for building a submarine up to 2000+dwt. Based on that, in my opinion the facilities is not build solely for DSME 209 1400, but can be adjusted for another submarine design.

Granted that if 'say' PAL decided to stop partnership with DSME and move to Partnership with Naval Group on Scorpene, there will be some adjustments on the facilities, but does not mean the whole Previous Investment going to drain. Unless if MinDef decided to build the Submarine not in PAL facilities, then there will be big political cost to pay (not only PAL Investment going to drainage).

Granted the facility itself isn't going to be completely wasted, but it will still sit idle for years. Workers and engineers will have to be retrained, the license for DSME-209, which is paid for, wasted. Meanwhile if they want domestic production license, expect to pay over $2 billion for 3 Scorpenes + production license + transfer of technology. This amount can be budgeted, but the political wrangling to do so will take years, hence why the facility will sit idle costing money while producing nothing and the people slowly forgetting the relevant skills.

When you delve into the rumour on why the Indonesian Navy is supposed to be unhappy with the DSME you will find that at the bottom of it is the unwillingness to spend money. The South Koreans know how to make submarines. This is undisputed. But the Indonesian Navy wants cost-cuts, so the South Koreans gave them cost-cuts. The resulting product is exactly what they ordered. The Navy may not like it, but it is what they ordered. So if this whole thing stems from being too cheap, then how can anyone expect there will be money for Scorpene?

There are two possible pathways where Scorpene can possibly be funded and thus replace DSMR 209. One if it's the Mindef reverses its traditional favouring of the army. Give the army the navy's budget and let the navy have the army's budget. The other way is if the parliament approves at least $10 billion of extra funding (why $10 billion, because the army will take half and the air force a quarter). Either way would be nice.

Absent something like that I just can't see any reason why we should take the rumour seriously.

 

[Ananda]

The other way is if the parliament approves at least $10 billion of extra funding (why $10 billion, because the army will take half and the air force a quarter). Either way would be nice.

Agree, in the end it will come down to how much investment that will be able to Invest. Taking much from Army Budget thus reducing Army preference thinking will always be a challange.

I see what angle on Infrastructure Utilisation that you are looking at. On that's perspective I agree, since I also put on previous post that moving to Scorpene licensing will need some adjusment on facilities. Which on the end that's means additional cost.

The cost effective is off course to continue DSME 1400, and if any adjustment need to be done for the first 3 Submarines, thrn MinDef need to invest on that.

I do agree this is still rumours and that's why on previous post after Sandhi post, I put also that's still too much speculations. However, if any this French speculations can be considered, there's a lot of incentives that French need to be offered to match other offer from DSME, Damen, Odense or LM. Considering how expensive historically French defense asset, I do have big doubt they can do it.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

So in the end.....just wait and see what will happen the next 5 years.

Now something else.
PT Tesco Indomaritim has from which i understand, developed a 24 meter long LCU, which is now in the test-phase, hoping that TNI-AL will order it. And with a speed of between 20-40 kts its extremely fast for a LCU!

Tesco Indomaritim - LCU

 

[ChestnutTree]

They also posted a new 95M OPV design on their Instagram page. Whichever OPV design the Navy picks, the competition is sure going to be interesting now that Tesco is starting to give PAL a run for its money.

PT Tesco Indomaritim on Instagram: “Design OPV 95M yang dibuat oleh tim design #tescoindomaritim sudah siap untuk dipasarkan. Spesifikasi penuh terutama nya sistem CMS, akan…”

 

[Ananda]

Kapal Selam RI Lolos Uji Kedalaman Laut, 90% Produksi Sukses

This article from CNBC Indonesia basically stated the third DSME 1400 for Indonesian Navy and the first being assemble in PAL Submarine facility, already pass diving test to 250 meters. This is not the maximum depth (which according to publicly specs is 300+ meters).

I put this in here regarding the previous posts of mine on potential Scorpene replacing the next batch (of 3 Subs) for Indonesian Navy. This kind of public test seems shown that PAL already manage to assemble this type of Subs, thus next steps on this type of Subs with PAL seems more positive.

Again I agree with other poster like tonnyc that too much rumours or wild speculation on Scorpene deal. However my current prediction on this moment, the second batch of 3 seems 'tend' to still go with DSME 1400, However the next batch that will still be open either still with DSME, or other suppliers.

So this talk on possible Scorpene or U-214 based with German or Turkey all for the next batch, since MinDef still aimed for 12 Subs. Thus, I'm increasing doubtful on speculation that Scorpene will replace second batch of DSME 1400. For next batch after that, then there's potential on that.

 

[r0m8470]

Kapal Selam RI Lolos Uji Kedalaman Laut, 90% Produksi Sukses

This article from CNBC Indonesia basically stated the third DSME 1400 for Indonesian Navy and the first being assemble in PAL Submarine facility, already pass diving test to 250 meters. This is not the maximum depth (which according to publicly specs is 300+ meters).

I put this in here regarding the previous posts of mine on potential Scorpene replacing the next batch (of 3 Subs) for Indonesian Navy. This kind of public test seems shown that PAL already manage to assemble this type of Subs, thus next steps on this type of Subs with PAL seems more positive.

Again I agree with other poster like tonnyc that too much rumours or wild speculation on Scorpene deal. However my current prediction on this moment, the second batch of 3 seems 'tend' to still go with DSME 1400, However the next batch that will still be open either still with DSME, or other suppliers.

So this talk on possible Scorpene or U-214 based with German or Turkey all for the next batch, since MinDef still aimed for 12 Subs. Thus, I'm increasing doubtful on speculation that Scorpene will replace second batch of DSME 1400. For next batch after that, then there's potential on that.

Ananda - the unhappiness with DSME, what aspects are they not happy about?

Is it the CMS?
Is it the acoustics signature? The habitability, handling, endurance .... ?

I think what frustrates us - casual/enthusiast observers - is how the defence acquisition, sometimes seems to be cobbled together.

We need frigate - ok, let's get some 105 hulls, but let's piecemeal the ordnance (PKR105).
We need OTH-sea denial - let's get some Yakhont and put a novel VLS on an old hull that we'll retire soon (OWA).
We need more FAC - let's build some missile boats and put old guns combined w Chinese SSM w dubious quality (KCR40)
We want CIWS - let's get a Goalkeeper knock off and place it on an old East German sourced corvette (Parchim)

The whole thing just seems disconcerted - and make the Navy always seem to be behind the 8 ball.

 

[Ananda]

Ananda - the unhappiness with DSME, what aspects are they not happy about?

There's a lot of speculations on that, from batteries capabilities not in specs, some equipment, thus I just goes with what officially being stated.

MinDef stated that the First Submarine of three has 12 items need to be rectified, and so far according to them from 12 only 5 still need to be sorted out.
The second submarine they only said already improve significantly, thus I don't know if they still have problem need to rectified or not.
The Third Submarine (the one being assemble in PAL facilities) still being tested by Both PAL and DSME.

This DSME 1400 basically DSME called in their statement as improved Chang Bo Go (original DSME 209) for Indonesian specifications. Thus for First Submarine of this batch basically is the first submarine of new specs which there will be some adjustments need to be done. Even Australia have problem in the beginning on Collins class, thus for me it's should be expected some adjustments needed.

All this 'noise' of some in Navy or MinDef not happy with DSME 1400 perhaps like tonnyc said in his post related on some 'factions' in Navy or MinDef not happy with what specs DSME delivered. Perhaps those are guys that not happy with DSME 1400 being choose in the first place (remember there are still some political factions and their supporters that still want Russians Submarine). However DSME 1400 is the type of Submarine that still within capabilities of local Industry (in here PAL shipyard) to develop. PAL already have some experience overhauling older 209, thus improve 209 like this DSME 1400 is the logical step for them to begin their journey on Submarine Fabrication.

I think what frustrates us - casual/enthusiast observers - is how the defence acquisition, sometimes seems to be cobbled together.

This is basically what my ranting on Indonesian threads with previous defence minister, MinDef and Jokowi's first term administration all about. No coherent long term plan and bad implementation.

Now, they say they will review all defense projects (whether already finish or still on going) and will make them more coherent with long term plan of Indonesian defense development. They also stated, any projects must shown beneficial effects toward domestic defense industry capabilities and technologies development.

In short they are going to review current projects and other potential partnership that can be available to be more beneficial for domestic Industries. Thus if this going to be implemented consistently, then they are looking for more standardise plan procurement with long term effect for local defense industry involvement.

Will see what will come out, since this is already the language that come not only from Prabowo's but also Jokowi's.

 

[Ananda]

https://m.kontan.co.id/news/sri-mul...ung-belanja-penguatan-alutsista-tni/?page=all

This article in Bahasa from Ministry of Finance seems confirm what I already put in Indonesian threads, on how MinDef need to improve their long term planning including what asset to buy specific and what procurement contract they are planning to do. All things that previous term MinDef have difficulty to do it in discipline way.

Ministry of Finance basically says her ministry will support MinDef plan for more defense asset procurement, but she then talk about how MinDef must coordinate with her ministry for better procurement process including better certainty on assets selection.

Clearly she implied any long term plan must be more detail including how to, more certain on which specific asset they are going to negotiate, the procurement contract they are going to choose thus provide more efficient procurement process.