Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing some good news!
Agree....CIWS are so cool.
But ive found it at last, officially from Koninklijke Schelde/Damen Shipyards.
Indonesia: 'green water navy'
- Thread starter Supe
- Start date
But ive found it at last, officially from Koninklijke Schelde/Damen Shipyards.
On 1 Apr 2020, it was reported by Janes that Indonesia's defence planners have convened a meeting to discuss the country's KRW1.162 trillion (USD900 million) order for a second batch of three diesel-electric submarines (SSKs) with South Korea and are considering several options for the programme, including contract termination. Two separate sources from the defence ministry and the Indonesian Navy's (Tentara Nasional Indonesia - Angkatan Laut: TNI-AL) headquarters in Cilangkap have confirmed to Jane's that among matters being discussed at the moment include legal and financial implications of walking away from the contract that was announced in April 2019.
Indonesia signed a contract with Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME) for the second tranche of three Type 209/1400 diesel-electric submarines in April 2019. The vessels will be similar to the first batch of three boats that was signed in December 2011.
Indonesia signed a contract with Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME) for the second tranche of three Type 209/1400 diesel-electric submarines in April 2019. The vessels will be similar to the first batch of three boats that was signed in December 2011.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
That was predictable....most progams end up like this with this jokowi administration: years of proud announcements of their plans, wishes and "we are interested in", negotiations, signing the contracts, on hold, negotiations again (can it be cheaper?), new contract, on hold again (wait, we actually dont have enough budget at all!) ending with cancellation....
But wasnt the value of the 2nd batch contract around $1.200.000.000? Do you have a link to the article/source?
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Janes | Latest defence and security news
Janes | The latest defence and security news from Janes - the trusted source for defence intelligence
www.janes.com
I believe this is the article that OPSSG mention. As coming from finance circle, I'm not surprised. This COVID 19 situation will force most World government to reallocate their budget to support health system and prop up economies to keep the confidence and social order.
Defense procurement will probably (not just with Indonesia), but also in other countries will take cuts for a year or two at least.
Like it or not due to share of population, Indonesia will have the highest COVID 19 case in SEA. So far the patient mostly impact the medium-up population.
However the lower class of Indonesia like in India and Philippines is the one mostly effected, since mostly they are daily Informal worker that need to work each day or not earned anything. This social distancing or semi lock down is already taking half of their income. Imagine if we go on total lock down in Big City like Jakarta. Subsidising those segment, plus emergency health care build up will take most of Government budget.
Subsidising lower segment of population and emergency build up on health system already big, but it's still small with the effort to give Incentives/subsidising the economy. US going to spend USD 2 trillion, Indonesia we predict going to need USD 50 billion at least to keep some business a float especially on Transportation, Hotels and Tourism, Retail Trading or Manufacturing.
This is not Indonesia alone, but the global demand will shrunk significantly, where global population will mostly try secure their basic needs. Thus this will hurt Industries on secondary or tertiary needs. Means all government probably will in the end need to subsidising half of economy.
So yes, Defense Industry can get hit bad due to this Virus.
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Ahmad
Active Member
I dont think submarine contract will be terminated, but I believe it will be delayed for along this year until the coronavirus outbreak is over inshaAllah. It will become an effective contract next year IMO. Naval acquisition I believe will be prioritized on this second term of Jokowi as threat from China is getting bigger in North Natuna Sea. Any way, the contract has already been signed so the chance for it to be terminated is rather small.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
It all depends on how much the COVID 19 bill actually come out, and the more important thing how far the damage will be for the economy.
What most of government in the world need to put the bill is on the second one. This can be for a year to handle or more.
Indonesia has one advantage that it depends on domestic consumption for most part of it's Economics growth. However this also depend on how the Economics activity rolling. Which COVID 19 create hinderence on rolling Economics activity.
The article can means both ways, either cancellation or postponement. Either way, Military procurement not just in Indonesia but around the world will face some cuts for foreseable future.
What most of government in the world need to put the bill is on the second one. This can be for a year to handle or more.
Indonesia has one advantage that it depends on domestic consumption for most part of it's Economics growth. However this also depend on how the Economics activity rolling. Which COVID 19 create hinderence on rolling Economics activity.
The article can means both ways, either cancellation or postponement. Either way, Military procurement not just in Indonesia but around the world will face some cuts for foreseable future.
Not surprised if the country has to reprioritize things and place defence acquisition on lower stack rankings. With that said though, are there other considerations given with this submarine-related news? Are there performance and/or quality issues that drive the govt to reconsider? From ToT perspective for example, how much ToT does PT PAL actually get? Can that drive the govt decision or has anyone heard about that?
Ananda
The Bunker Group
I said more than a month ago if Indonesia wants to go with DSME, better with their new design DSME 2000. This is a design that probably ROKN will not used, since they are already go with DSME KSS3.
Thus this design can be taken by PAL as based on their own design with DSME. There are many talks in local forum/media from people or interest parties that put down DSME as only using derivatives design from German. Thus they believe we better goes with original design owner, either Germans, French, Swedes etc.
That's bollocks in my opinion. South Korea has advance Ship Building capabilities. Granted DSME 1400 that they are selling to Indonesia is based on 209. However it's also being modified thus not entirely still original German design. Any submarine project especially new or modified design will have teething problem. Look at how long Australian need to adjust Collins.
But talking that ToT with German or French or Turkey will be more beneficial to PAL, is a bit 'nonsense' if I can say. The ToT also depends on PAL capabilities, which PAL it self says that their infrastructure in Surabaya for Submarine project is not finish yet. Thus they need also another Investment to be able fully absorb TOT of Submarine project.
That's why the second batch also being done in stages to give time for PAL to build more infrastructure and absorb all manufacturing process in their yard.
In short, even if the next submarine project will have different partner than DSME, the problem will still be the same, until PAL it self already have sufficient infrastructure and internal tech know how.
Related to that Jane's article. Let's just wait on real decision. If Indonesia MinDef postpone or delayed Submarine programs (with any suppliers), then it's the matter of budget.
If they are postponing only with DSME, then it's the matter related to their supplier preference.
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Looking to the history of the Batch 2 contract, im sure its because of the lack of funds. I can not believe that there are better offers available, for that amount of ToT and that price.
Now something about KorMar's BT-3F acquisition program.
Reading the original source....the budget of $280 million for up to 79 BT-3F is just appoved by Komisi I of the DPR, no contracts have been signed yet.
Indonesia approves USD280 million request for follow-on BT-3F order | Jane's 360
And as we can see to the Su-35 and Batch 2 of the Type 209/1400 programs, the current Jokowi administration doesnt have a problem to cancel contracts at the last moment. But in these difficult times its for sure that, if its not canceled, then it will be postponed for at least a year..
Now something about KorMar's BT-3F acquisition program.
Reading the original source....the budget of $280 million for up to 79 BT-3F is just appoved by Komisi I of the DPR, no contracts have been signed yet.
Indonesia approves USD280 million request for follow-on BT-3F order | Jane's 360
And as we can see to the Su-35 and Batch 2 of the Type 209/1400 programs, the current Jokowi administration doesnt have a problem to cancel contracts at the last moment. But in these difficult times its for sure that, if its not canceled, then it will be postponed for at least a year..
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Just a question, is KRI Ki Hajar Dewantara 364 already retired, or not yet? I thought it was recently updated.
If its already retired, will its role as training frigate be replaced by another ship?
If its already retired, will its role as training frigate be replaced by another ship?
Ananda
The Bunker Group
TNI AL Kembali Diperkuat 2 Unit Kapal Latih
TNI Angkatan Laut (AL) menerima dua unit Kapal Angkatan Laut (KAL) baru, yakni KAL Kadet V-06 dan KAL Kadet V-07 setelah diserahkan resmi dari PT Karimun Anugrah...
daerah.sindonews.com
Yes, it's been retired since 2018, now the latest info are going to become museum ship in Surabaya.
I don't think they will replace a training 'Frigate' as seems trend moving to smaller training vessels like those already build and launched from Batam.
If looking toward even RN, they also assign training for cadets toward Traning vessels on size of patrol boats. Just like those two cadets training vessels in the article.
Seaman ships for cadets also being harness on tall sailing ships. TNI AL supposed to retired old tall sail ships Dewa Rutji after the new one Bima Suci comes from Spain. However seems they still maintain both, as such they also have smaller training vessels in the fleet.
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
KAPA Marinir Menemukan Anggarannya
27 Mei 2020 KAPA Tipe PTS-10 (depan) dan K-61 (belakang) milik Korps Marinir TNI AL (photo : Marinir) Berdasarkan sumber yang layak...
defense-studies.blogspot.com
Excalibur Army Tampilkan Desain "KAPA," Pertanda Proses Pengadaan Akan Kembali Bergulir?
Nama KAPA seolah menjadi kata serapan tersendiri, padahal KAPA adalah singkatan dari Kendaraan Amfibi Pengangkut Artileri, jenis kendaraan khusus (ransus) yang identik pada arsenal Resimen Kavaleri Korps Marinir. Di lingkungan Korps Baret Ungu, dikenal dua jenis KAPA yang usianya sudah terbilang...
www.indomiliter.com
Articles start to appear about the acquisition of 54 tracked amphibious Transporters amd the budget of $398 million.
The sources are not really 100% reliable, so lets wait an see.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
P-8302, an IPTN CN235-220 MPA from the Indonesian Navy. Taken in September 2019 at Bandara Domine Eduard Osok Sorong (SOQ). 
Sorry for the bad quality, but the pictures were taken with a cheap camera.
Sorry for the bad quality, but the pictures were taken with a cheap camera.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
There's always competition between TNI AL and TNI AU for who has the rights on getting and operating MPA. TNI AL before only getting NC-212 MPA while CN-235 MPA version being allocated to TNI-AU.
Seems from what I heard, TNI-AL argue that TNI-AU only should operate large area capable MPA as 737-200 Surveillance that being procured at Soeharto era. While left more tactical smaller range MPA like CN-235 to the Navy.
Thus, this is where local media and forums now think TNI-AU will get at least 737 MPA (which is off course P8) to replace 737-200 Surveillance if the budget permitted.
Seems from what I heard, TNI-AL argue that TNI-AU only should operate large area capable MPA as 737-200 Surveillance that being procured at Soeharto era. While left more tactical smaller range MPA like CN-235 to the Navy.
Thus, this is where local media and forums now think TNI-AU will get at least 737 MPA (which is off course P8) to replace 737-200 Surveillance if the budget permitted.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
".... if the budget permitted."
You guys all know that i am a born pessimist.
So i dont need to give additional comment on this....
You guys all know that i am a born pessimist.
So i dont need to give additional comment on this....
Well they better make their minds up quick then if they want the P-8A Poseidon because the production line will be closing soon.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Early this year, it's been talk that any decisions on what asset and project to be procured on MEF 2020-2024 or projects that still 'delayed' on 2015-2019 will be announced by April this year.
However those are before COVID 19. Thus, I don't think any decisions on Non COVID 19 projects including defense and infrastructure will be announced, until some kind of more control on COVID 19 has been gain.
TNI-AU already stated in early this year that they have to make decisions on what will replace the 737-200 Surveillance.
They have been some indication that longer range MPA as 737-200 Surveillance replacement will be using similar airframe based for the one that going to be choose on AEW project.
The choices are either Airbus C-295, Gulfsteam G550 or other similar class Business Jet, or Boeing 737 based. Airbus with it's DI connection will still off course got some leverage, eventough Boeing already come and present several times on their products.
Airframe alone I suspect will not be sole determinators in here. Those airframes will also reflect on what kind electronics and sensors being choose.
In short, not just budget will determine the choices, but politicall circumstances will also play in here
However those are before COVID 19. Thus, I don't think any decisions on Non COVID 19 projects including defense and infrastructure will be announced, until some kind of more control on COVID 19 has been gain.
TNI-AU already stated in early this year that they have to make decisions on what will replace the 737-200 Surveillance.
They have been some indication that longer range MPA as 737-200 Surveillance replacement will be using similar airframe based for the one that going to be choose on AEW project.
The choices are either Airbus C-295, Gulfsteam G550 or other similar class Business Jet, or Boeing 737 based. Airbus with it's DI connection will still off course got some leverage, eventough Boeing already come and present several times on their products.
Airframe alone I suspect will not be sole determinators in here. Those airframes will also reflect on what kind electronics and sensors being choose.
In short, not just budget will determine the choices, but politicall circumstances will also play in here
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Kabakamla Bicara Keamanan Laut RI: Terlalu Banyak yang Punya Wewenang
"Yang mimpin kalau ada masalah perairan ini siapa contact person-nya? Karena terlalu banyak yang punya kewenangan," kata Kabakamla Laksdya Aan Kurnia.
m.detik.com
Interview with Head of Indonesian Coast Guard. I put the article as the Head of Coast Guard (Bakamla) basically stated what have been known for some time (including what I have been stated several times in the thread), that too many agency with their own interests in handling Indonesian waters. This's quite rare, as usually Public Officials did not stated that in media during official interview.
Perhaps this is a sign that Bakamla that being officially put as Indonesian Coast Guard, have more confidence right know to take over conflicting interest on handling Indonesian waters. The Navy should back to handle what Navy do, external conflicts and sovereign integrity of Indonesian Jurisdiction. While the matter of commerciall security and day to day management related to Economics activities on Indonesian waters should handle by Coast Guard. Something that many other agencies did not want to relent to coast guard do it's their 'slice of cake' for long time.
There's some talk in Media for other agencies including The Navy to let their Patrol Vessels being put under Coast Guard jurisdiction. This if happen then it's a very 'bold' achievement by this administration of side streaming Maritime bureaucracy in Indonesia. After All the existence of patrol vessels on each agencies shown why the handling of Indonesian waters are so 'mess up'. Let's see if this administration have 'balls' to do it.
The Navy should only have Corvettes size above in their fleet. KCR 60 in the sense even being talk as Fast Missile Boats, actually still can be considered as small Corvettes. This talk on OPV for the Navy, with the creation of Coast Guard in my opinion should be move to Coast Guard. Unless the classification of OPV that TNI-AL has in mind also has ASW capabilities (as they're planning to replace Parchim).
However those smaller Navy's KAL patrol boats and patrol boats in Fishery Protection and Maritime Police should be merged to Coast Guard. There's no need for Maritime Police or Fishery Protection or Navy's Litoral Patrol duties as they should be handle by Coast Guard.
However those are part of conflicting interest that happen in Indonesian Waters. So many politicall interest that has to be 'clamp down' if this administration or any administration really want to take control on mess up Maritime Bureaucracy in Indonesia
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
As far as i know TNI-AU has 9 C295 and recently i found out that they also have one C295 MPA.
I did not know about this acquisition, did TNI-AU ordered more C295 MPA?
Besides that, is the C295 made under licence from CASA like the NC212, or just assembled from kits sent from Spain?
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Airbus Military signs contract with Indonesia for nine C295 aircraft - Defense Update:
Airbus Military has signed today, Fabruary 15th, a firm contract with PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PT DI) to supply nine C295 military transport aircraft for delivery to the Indonesian Ministry of Defense.
defense-update.com
I think either me or someone else already put this long time ago in Indonesia Air Force thread. However anyway I put it again. This article shown that DI involved with manufacturing on some section of C-295. Not doing anything new as many section from CN-235 is similar with C-295. After all C-295 is stretch CN-235 with more powerful engine. Both also share similarities on wing components.
So DI always got order from CASA or Airbus Military now on some parts of C-295 due to similarities with CN-235. It's make sense rather than Airbus must build another line in Seville, when they can just order from existing CN-235 line at DI's facility in Bandung for C-295.