Royal New Zealand Air Force

[ngatimozart]

So does that mean navy will end up with two or three different types to replace the Seasprites? Seems like a headache to me compared to one maritime helicopter type.Eight helicopters and one spare for parts currently is still small considering the number of ships that will be embarking them, the range we patrol , unless they too are being underutilized, like the IPV?

What's the point then of ordering 2 larger LPD with the stated helicopter capacity to replace HMNZS Canterbury if we don't have enough helicopters to fly off
them? And combat helicopters? Are we going to be developing a new capability?

Interesting the DCP states 9 airframes for the Seasprite replacement so either that's 9 operational airframes or an 8 operational + 1 spares, the same as the NH90 acquisition. IF they went with NH90 variants then they can acquire say 5 NFH and 3 MTTH (marinised TTH).

What I would like to see is marinising the original 8 TTH to MTTH standard as part of a MLU. Make that part of the Sprite replacement project and add 3 more MTTH if possible, bringing the MTTH fleet up to 14. Acquire 9 armed, armoured and marinised A109 Mako. That would give us a good helo capability ashore and at sea, plus I believe it would be money well spent - good VfM. However, I ain't holding my breath.

 

[ngatimozart]

Pinched this from the Think Defence twitter page.


Source: Think Defence on Twitter

Now if the RNZAF had some chooks we could move a battery of 105 mm howitzers in 1 lift.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

Pinched this from the Think Defence twitter page.

View attachment 46791
Source: Think Defence on Twitter

Now if the RNZAF had some chooks we could move a battery of 105 mm howitzers in 1 lift.

True, but why not just get SPG like what the Singaporean army were testing here in January? More firepower too

 

[milliGal]

I came across this article recently on the Dutch experience with the NH90 NFH. It is hosted on NHI's website so its not entirely impartial, but they talk quite openly about some of the problems they've had with it, and how they're mostly a thing of the past.

There is some talk at the end about mid-life upgrade plans. Apparently the Norwegians have already tested the Naval Strike Missile on the platform, and the dutch are planning to incorporate a newer torpedo in the next few years. There are also apparently still some problems with the HF antennae, and they want to improve its FLIR and long distance communications capability.

Seems like the clear choice for NZ's Seasprite replacement at the moment.

 

[Todjaeger]

I came across this article recently on the Dutch experience with the NH90 NFH. It is hosted on NHI's website so its not entirely impartial, but they talk quite openly about some of the problems they've had with it, and how they're mostly a thing of the past.

There is some talk at the end about mid-life upgrade plans. Apparently the Norwegians have already tested the Naval Strike Missile on the platform, and the dutch are planning to incorporate a newer torpedo in the next few years. There are also apparently still some problems with the HF antennae, and they want to improve its FLIR and long distance communications capability.

Seems like the clear choice for NZ's Seasprite replacement at the moment.

I disagree about the future replacement for the Seasprite being a clear choice. IIRC the Seasprite is due for replacement (or a SLEP/MLU) in about a decade, with the replacements for the ANZAC-class FFH's to start shortly after and be delivered in the mid-2030's. That would end up with the Seasprite replacements likely needing to operate from the current frigates for several years, and the NFH variant is effectively too large to fit.

IMO it would be much better if the Seasprite replacement could be delayed at least long enough so that there are still some operationally available Seasprites until the future frigates are commissioned.

 

[ngatimozart]

I disagree about the future replacement for the Seasprite being a clear choice. IIRC the Seasprite is due for replacement (or a SLEP/MLU) in about a decade, with the replacements for the ANZAC-class FFH's to start shortly after and be delivered in the mid-2030's. That would end up with the Seasprite replacements likely needing to operate from the current frigates for several years, and the NFH variant is effectively too large to fit.

IMO it would be much better if the Seasprite replacement could be delayed at least long enough so that there are still some operationally available Seasprites until the future frigates are commissioned.

IIRC from what I have read in the 2016 DWP documentation the plan was to replace the Sprites around 2030. However, in the 2019 DCP this has been bought forward, most likely due to the cost of operation and sustainment increasing markedly as they grow longer in the tooth. By that stage the sprites would most definitely be an orphan fleet and a MLU to risky.

To be honest if the RAN can get a Sikorksy S70i and MH-60R into the ANZAC FFG hangar without any dramas, it may be possible that fitting a NFH into an ANZAC hangar may not be too much trouble. We've got 8 NH90s in country so it wouldn't be difficulty to test the hypothesis.

Sikorsky SH-2B Source: Sikorsky SH-60B Seahawk


NHI NFH. Source: NH90 Caiman

The NFH is higher by 19.6 cm and wider by 60 cm however it is shorter than the Seahawk by 259 cm (2.59 m).

 

[milliGal]

I disagree about the future replacement for the Seasprite being a clear choice. IIRC the Seasprite is due for replacement (or a SLEP/MLU) in about a decade, with the replacements for the ANZAC-class FFH's to start shortly after and be delivered in the mid-2030's. That would end up with the Seasprite replacements likely needing to operate from the current frigates for several years, and the NFH variant is effectively too large to fit.

IMO it would be much better if the Seasprite replacement could be delayed at least long enough so that there are still some operationally available Seasprites until the future frigates are commissioned.

Fitting the NFH in an ANZAC hangar may or may not end up being an be an issue (this was a reason why the Australians went for the SH-60R was it not?), but I believe the synergies in operating an NH90 for both airforce/army and naval roles will be too great to ignore. They have just installed an NH90 simulator at Ohakea, so training, maintenance, and acquisition of spares will all be greatly streamlined.

Specifications for our new naval ships (i.e. HMNZS Aotearoa) also state a requirement for a hangar capable of housing an NH90 sized helicopter. With the OPV's and Frigates due to be replaced in the next 10-15 years and a new LPD due to be introduced, I think they will choose a helicopter with an eye to the future. They can always hold on to a few Seasprites for a little longer to deploy on the older vessels in the interim afterall.

The NH90 NFH, the SH-60R, and the Merlin are probably the only high-end western ASW helicopters available today, and I'm not sure another serious competitor will become available in the next ~5 years. They will not want to choose an unproven platform so of these options the NH90 NFH seems like the clear choice to me.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

The Wasp was a 3 ton helicopter. The Sprite is a six ton helicopter and the NFH 90 is a nine ton helicopter. Does the RNZN need a 9 ton class shipboard helicopter? A similar sized naval helicopter to replace the Sea Sprite is more likely in my mind regardless of the benefits of familiarity with the existing NH90s. The H160 will be proven and in service and likely to be a popular naval multi purpose helicopter in many navies unable to field the larger helicopters. With a price that will likley allow two aircraft for the cost of a single NFH90 this to me would be the better option as more is better.

 

[milliGal]

The Wasp was a 3 ton helicopter. The Sprite is a six ton helicopter and the NFH 90 is a nine ton helicopter. Does the RNZN need a 9 ton class shipboard helicopter? A similar sized naval helicopter to replace the Sea Sprite is more likely in my mind regardless of the benefits of familiarity with the existing NH90s. The H160 will be proven and in service and likely to be a popular naval multi purpose helicopter in many navies unable to field the larger helicopters. With a price that will likley allow two aircraft for the cost of a single NFH90 this to me would be the better option as more is better.

A modern ASW helicopter requires a pretty hefty array of equipment, and larger helicopters seem to be favoured these days. They need to carry sonobuoys, dipping sonar, radar, their associated electronics, operator stations, communications systems, and a spare 500-1000 kg weight capacity for a pair of missiles/torpedoes.

Smaller helicopters such as the Wildcat or the upcoming H160 are fine for ISR and anti-surface warfare etc, but to properly track and destroy submarines I think a larger platform is required. The British Merlin and the Canadian Cyclone for example, at ~15 and ~13 tonnes are a step up again from the Seahawk and NH90.

 

[John Fedup]

Looking towards the future the larger NH90 makes sense for naval applications and synergy with airforce and army versions is a positive as well. I am a fan of the Merlin and the CH-148 Cyclone seems to be coming along but these are high end ASW platforms with big price tags and big footprints. Considering the submarine proliferation with the Asia-Pacific region, perhaps high end platforms should be in NZ's long term naval future along with frigates with big hangers.

 

[regstrup]

Smaller helicopters such as the Wildcat or the upcoming H160 are fine for ISR and anti-surface warfare etc, but to properly track and destroy submarines I think a larger platform is required. The British Merlin and the Canadian Cyclone for example, at ~15 and ~13 tonnes are a step up again from the Seahawk and NH90.

Denmark used to operate the Lynx helicopter, which the Wildcat is developed from, but replaced it with Seahawk a few years ago. This has been a huge improvement especially in the North Atlantic around the Faroe islands and Greenland, because of the greater range.

Denmark has also plans to equip them for ASW, so with New Zealand also having a lot of sea around it and the large distances, I could see the NZ Navy having some of the same benefits from choosing a larger helicopter like the NH90 or the Seahawk. Denmark also has the Merlin as land based SAR and TTH, but as far as I know it is to big for the hangars of the Danish Navy frigates and support ships, so it would make good sense to choose either the Seahawk or NH90.

The Danish Air Force had the Merlin together with the Lynx, but choose the Seahawk over the Merlin because the Merlin was to big and used to much fuel for ship born operation. The Wildcat lost to the Seahawk, because the Seahawk was a proven of the shell product, while the Wildcat was still under development.

That was also one of the reasons, that the Danes choose the Merlin over the NH90 plus the Merlin had three engines and was big enough for the paramedics and doctor to stand up in the Helicopter, when treating af patient.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Doing a quick search I found that my previous statement regarding pricing of each helicopter is likely pretty close. So in prefer to get eight NFH90s the cost will be at least a half a billion just for the aircraft. $350 million will likely get you eight navalized H160 plus a simulator and support. That’s a $150 million cash to be redirected. This is not to mention the lower operating costs compared to the NFH 90. I’ve been wrong before but again I don’t see the RNZN getting T26. Hopefully something along the lines of T31 but I just can’t see multi billion dollar frigates getting bought. Sorry just my two cents.

 

[MrConservative]

Doing a quick search I found that my previous statement regarding pricing of each helicopter is likely pretty close. So in prefer to get eight NFH90s the cost will be at least a half a billion just for the aircraft. $350 million will likely get you eight navalized H160 plus a simulator and support. That’s a $150 million cash to be redirected. This is not to mention the lower operating costs compared to the NFH 90. I’ve been wrong before but again I don’t see the RNZN getting T26. Hopefully something along the lines of T31 but I just can’t see multi billion dollar frigates getting bought. Sorry just my two cents.

Plenty of people doubted that we would buy the P-8A. A Type 31 can also be a expensive platform once the gear is installed. AESA radar, CMS330/Combatss-21, EW suite et al. One must remember that there is a FYVES dimension to a Frigate in the NZ-OZ-Canada context just is there were/is in the P-3/P-8.

It would be unwise to discount the MH-60R as a front runner to replace the SH-2G(NZ) in the ASuW/ASW role.

 

[ngatimozart]

Doing a quick search I found that my previous statement regarding pricing of each helicopter is likely pretty close. So in prefer to get eight NFH90s the cost will be at least a half a billion just for the aircraft. $350 million will likely get you eight navalized H160 plus a simulator and support. That’s a $150 million cash to be redirected. This is not to mention the lower operating costs compared to the NFH 90. I’ve been wrong before but again I don’t see the RNZN getting T26. Hopefully something along the lines of T31 but I just can’t see multi billion dollar frigates getting bought. Sorry just my two cents.

What have you based these costs on? Are they flyaway costs and where did you get the figures from? What is the currency of the figures that you posted?

IF the NH90 variants are chosen, the RNZAF already has a NH90 simulator, it already operates NH90s so its not introducing a new type into service, meaning it doesn't have all the associated costs. Using figures from the French Senate, Projet de loi de finances pour 2013 : Défense : équipement des forces, flyaway costs for the NH90 have been ascertained with a reasonable degree of accuracy. However, it has to be noted that the costs are for 2013 and for the French military. Based on the 2019 DCP, 9 aircraft would be acquired, and the story in Aviation Week states that it will not be a like for like replacement, therefore we can assume that the mix will be x # NFH and y # MTTH. For example IF 5 NFH and 4 MTTH are acquired then according to the figures from the French, the flyaway cost of NFH is €43.3 million (NZ$75.4 million) and what they call the NFH - Support €36.4.3 million (NZ$63.4 million). Hence, using these figures 5 x NFH would cost NZ$377.0 million, 4 x MTTH NZ$253.6 million, giving total of NZ$630.6 million. If we were to acquire these as a completely new capability without already having the TTH, it would cost us an extra ~NZ$315 million for spares, training, simulator, manuals, WOLC etc., taking that up to NZ$945 million.

At the moment a navalised fully combat capable H160 is not yet on the drawing board and as such we would not even be interested. We are not Canada and would not entertain such a risky venture, plus it is to light for what we require.

The other option is the MH-60R. It's flyaway cost is US$47.75 million (NZ$74.9 million) and the MH-60S at US$21.93 million (NZ$34.4 million). So 5 Romeos would cost NZ$374.5 million and 4 Sierras NZ$137.6 million, giving total of NZ$512.1 million. We then have to add ~NZ$256.05 million for spares, training, simulator, manuals, WOLC etc., taking that up to NZ$768.15 million. How NZMOD comments about its WOLC for acquisitions is that it has found over time that these roughly equate to 50% of the flyaway / sailaway costs etc.

Given the differences in cost between the NFH / MTTH and the Romeo / Sierra combinations I would think that the NFH / MTTH would be more attractive because we would not be standing up a new platform. I am also wary that the Seahawk will be replaced by the USN in the early 2030s, so we may end up in a situation similar to what we have with the sprites as nations replace their Seahawk fleets long before we do.

 

[Todjaeger]

IIRC from what I have read in the 2016 DWP documentation the plan was to replace the Sprites around 2030. However, in the 2019 DCP this has been bought forward, most likely due to the cost of operation and sustainment increasing markedly as they grow longer in the tooth. By that stage the sprites would most definitely be an orphan fleet and a MLU to risky.

To be honest if the RAN can get a Sikorksy S70i and MH-60R into the ANZAC FFG hangar without any dramas, it may be possible that fitting a NFH into an ANZAC hangar may not be too much trouble. We've got 8 NH90s in country so it wouldn't be difficulty to test the hypothesis.

The NFH is higher by 19.6 cm and wider by 60 cm however it is shorter than the Seahawk by 259 cm (2.59 m).

I was recalling comments from GF, which IIRC were along the lines of "not enough room to swing a bee's d*ck," left after getting an NH90 into an ANZAC-class frigate's hangar. If the time frame was only a year or two at the most between standing up a NFH90 helicopter fleet instead of a SH-2G fleet and getting ships commissioned which they could operate from, that might work. However, it seems like under the current timelines the NFH90, if selected, would enter Kiwi service at a time when the only vessels which they could really be embarked on would be Canterbury and Aotearoa. If memory serves, Canterbury lacks a magazine in the hangar to enable combat operations by naval helicopters as well as the level of comms and CMS to permit datalinking with an embarked naval helicopter.

Per the Aotearoa factsheet, she will be able to have a helicopter embarked, but it lacks information which would confirm or deny whether the maritime awareness and combat capabilities of a naval helicopter could be utilized.

As I see it, the NZDF will need to make some potentially hard choices regarding maintaining an embarked naval helicopter capability starting in the late 2020's, with none of them looking particularly appealing.

In no particular order, I see these as being;
1. Retain the Seasprites until more RNZN vessels which could embark the NFH90 are either in service, or about to be in service.
2. Go with a different naval helicopter which is able to be embarked on RNZN vessels in service at the time.
3. Bring forward the entry into service dates, by several years, for some of the replacement RNZN vessels .
4. Have Kiwi naval helicopter air/ground crews seconded to allied navies to maintain some of the corporate knowledge of shipboard ops.
5. Have Kiwi naval helicopters stationed at land bases only for several years until RNZN vessels are available to embark on.

There are a number of different benefits provided by the above options, but IMO at least, they all manage to have at least one major negative.

 

[MrConservative]

I am also wary that the Seahawk will be replaced by the USN in the early 2030s, so we may end up in a situation similar to what we have with the sprites as nations replace their Seahawk fleets long before we do.

LM-Sikorsky is supporting the MH-60R in USN service well past 2040. There is no current funded DoD project to replace them. Maybe in 20 years they will eventually IOC a new USN Frigate rotary. The USN officialdom has already remarked that the new medium co-axial rotaries for the Army and USAF are unsuitable. It is the most capable, reliable option by a clear margin. They will certainly be with the RAN until that date. Other major US aligned militaries in the Indo-Pacific are procuring them over the next few years and have signed 30 year support agreements. Other than basic airframe shape a MH-60R is very different to a S-70B of the early 1980's, like a P-8A is to a late 60's B732, or a C-130J-30 is to an early 60's C-130B. It is what is inside them that counts, they are more than skin deep just like a P-8A.

This is not complicated. A number of MH-60R's that have operational and logistic synergies with the RAN and USN here in the Indo-Pacific is becoming to go to option for India, Korea and with the suggestion reported in Japanese language media that the JMSDF will likely procure them to replace their older 60J's on their surface combatants next decade. For an IOC of 2028 the project will probably kick off later in the next election cycle.

Romeo's are cheaper to own and to operate, significantly better serviceability, a better ASW/AsUW option in terms of combat, and integrated with our closest allies than the NHF90 and lastly it is proven and TRUSTED! Simply the best tool for the job in our context. NHF not so much.

The MTTH has potential in the maritime support role adding to current TTH numbers.

 

[old faithful]

True, but why not just get SPG like what the Singaporean army were testing here in January? More firepower too

Because a few Chinooks would offer the NZDF a lot more flexibility than ahalf a dozen SP Guns would. Consider that out of 8NH 90s only 6 would really be available for deployment, leaving 2 in NZ in a Timor like situation.

 

[MrConservative]

This recent Korean deal is a good indicator of the costs of a MH-60R acquisition.

Republic of Korea - MH-60R Multi-Mission Helicopters with Support | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

Essentially it works out to be USD$66.66m MDE per airframe (NZD$100m) including the usual spare and repair parts; support and test equipment; communications equipment; ferry support; publications and technical documentation; personnel training and training equipment; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistics and program support. A TOFT suite sourced by CAE including training and support under contract that networks a full-motion operational flight trainers and weapons tactics trainer, plus a composite maintenance trainer, rear crew trainer and avionics maintenance trainer/weapons load trainer for the MH-60R would be circa a further NZD$100m going on the packages that CAE have delivered to the RAN and USN. Around 70% of all pilot, WO and crewman training is done suing TOFT. On that basis 6 airframes all up would be around the $700m mark.

The DCP acquisition forecasts for the Frigate Helicopter Replacement were circa NZ$1B+ so there is capacity for a further 3 NH90 MTTH airframes as well as upgrading the remaining 8 THH versions in service to MTTH standard with the auto-folding blades and uprated landing gear with that $300m+ price point, along with the acquisition of 6 MH-60R's in the Frigate role.

Personally I still think there is a role for additional utility rotary within the NZDF at the Domestic MAOT/SAR/VIP level to take the pressure off the NH-90 and small A109LUH training fleet. The recent turnkey lease through CHC of six AW-139's by the RAAF similar in context to our KA-350 lease is a sound and cost effective approach that offers reduced overhead footprints and thus ownership headaches for the RNZAF for aircraft used in non combat or deployment roles.

 

[Rob c]

An interesting short doco on the air display at the opening of Wellington airport.

 

[ngatimozart]

An interesting short doco on the air display at the opening of Wellington airport.

Wasn't that the one where the Vulcan touched short and stuffed his u/c leg resulting in a very hairy landing at Ohakea? Great recovery by the pilot because could've very easy been a Vulcan splattered along the runway and / or in Evans Bay. Believe said aircraft was there for a month or so whilst they flew erks and spares out from the UK to repair it. Or was it the one where the Sunderland had the close encounter with the runway resulting in the sanding, or more accurately grinding, of the bottom of the hull resulting in a return to Hobsonville, with prodigious stuffing of gear etc in the hole in the hull prior to landing at Hobby and quick taxy to landing cradle, for a smart hauling onto the hard.