Royal New Zealand Air Force
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Novascotiaboy
Active Member
Its been five months since the government announced that the C130J-30 would be acquired as the replacement for the legacy H models. Has there been any word on this officially or unofficially?
Do you mean with respect to final numbers? It wont be this side of Christmas, then the long summer break wont see any action. More likely in the March-April pre budget.
One thing I have discovered according to the Production Schedule is that there are 5 non disclosed FMS allocated C-130J airframes due to be completed on Jan 2022, March 2022, Feb 2023, April 2023 and August 2023. Coincidental who knows?
Novascotiaboy
Active Member
Thanks MrC. I noted during a search that online news from the greater Seatle area noted repeatedly that it was to be a like for like purchase of five aircraft. Lets hope that an additional one or more will be added to enhance the capability.
RNZAF wants them pimped out, that’s for sure...
New Zealand – C-130J Aircraft | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency
Media/Public Contact:
[email protected]
Transmittal No:
19-69
WASHINGTON, November 20, 2019 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to New Zealand of five (5) C-130J aircraft and related equipment for an estimated cost of $1.4 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.
The Government of New Zealand has requested to buy five (5) C-130J aircraft; twenty-four (24) Rolls Royce AE-2100D3 turboprop engines (20 installed, 4 spares); fifteen (15) Embedded Global Positioning System (GPS)/Inertial Navigation Systems (INS) (EGIs) with GPS security devices, airborne (10 installed, 5 spares); eight (8) Multi-Information Distribution System (MIDS)/Link-16 Low Video Terminal (LVT)-BU2 (5 installed, 3 spares); thirteen (13) AN/AAQ-24(V)N LAIRCM (Large Aircraft Infrared Countermeasures) System Processor Replacement (LSPR) (10 installed, 3 spares); and nineteen (19) Guardian Laser Transmitter Assembly for LAIRCM (15 installed, 4 spares). Also included are eight (8) AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning System (MWS); eight (8) AN/APN-241 Low Power Color Radar; eight (8) AN/ALR-56M Missile Warning System Receiver; fifteen (15) AN/ALE-47 Countermeasures Dispensing System; six (6) MX-20HD Electro-Optical/Infrared Imaging System; forty-four (44) Missile Warning Sensor, LAIRCM; Control Interface Unit Replacement, LAIRCM; classified memory cards, LAIRCM; Low Volume Terminal Cryptographic Modules KIV-55; AN/ARC-210 RT-1990A(C) Radio; AN/ARC- 164(V) RT-1518 Radio; AN/ARC-153 Tactical Air Navigation; AN/ARN-147 VHF Receiver; AN/ARC-190 HF Radio; AN/ARC-222 VHF Radio w/SINCGARS; Classified Tactical Manuals; Cartridge Activated Devices/Propellant Activated Devices; M206 Flares; MJU-64/B Decoy; BBU-35A/B Impulse Carts; Joint Mission Planning System; Classified Computer Identification Numbers; Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program (ECISAP) support, support and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistical and program support. The total estimated value is $1.4 billion.
This proposed sale will support the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a major ally that is a force for political stability, and economic progress in the Asia-Pacific region. The proposed sale will improve New Zealand's capability to meet current and future threats by enhancing its current airlift capability.
This proposed sale will provide the capability to support national, United Nations, and other coalition operations. This purchase also includes sensors and performance improvements that will assist New Zealand during extensive maritime surveillance and reconnaissance as well as improve its search and rescue capability. Additionally, the extra cargo capacity and aircraft performance will greatly increase New Zealand's Antarctic mission capabilities while simultaneously increasing safety margins. New Zealand currently operates the C-l30H aircraft and will have no difficulty absorbing this equipment and support into its armed forces.
The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.
The prime contractor will be Lockheed Martin, Ft Worth, TX. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.
Implementation of this sale will require the assignment of up to three U.S. contractor representatives to New Zealand.
There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.
This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.
All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, [email protected].
RNZAF wants them pimped out, that’s for sure...
New Zealand – C-130J Aircraft | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency
new_zealand_19-69.pdf
Media/Public Contact:
[email protected]
Transmittal No:
19-69
WASHINGTON, November 20, 2019 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to New Zealand of five (5) C-130J aircraft and related equipment for an estimated cost of $1.4 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.
The Government of New Zealand has requested to buy five (5) C-130J aircraft; twenty-four (24) Rolls Royce AE-2100D3 turboprop engines (20 installed, 4 spares); fifteen (15) Embedded Global Positioning System (GPS)/Inertial Navigation Systems (INS) (EGIs) with GPS security devices, airborne (10 installed, 5 spares); eight (8) Multi-Information Distribution System (MIDS)/Link-16 Low Video Terminal (LVT)-BU2 (5 installed, 3 spares); thirteen (13) AN/AAQ-24(V)N LAIRCM (Large Aircraft Infrared Countermeasures) System Processor Replacement (LSPR) (10 installed, 3 spares); and nineteen (19) Guardian Laser Transmitter Assembly for LAIRCM (15 installed, 4 spares). Also included are eight (8) AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning System (MWS); eight (8) AN/APN-241 Low Power Color Radar; eight (8) AN/ALR-56M Missile Warning System Receiver; fifteen (15) AN/ALE-47 Countermeasures Dispensing System; six (6) MX-20HD Electro-Optical/Infrared Imaging System; forty-four (44) Missile Warning Sensor, LAIRCM; Control Interface Unit Replacement, LAIRCM; classified memory cards, LAIRCM; Low Volume Terminal Cryptographic Modules KIV-55; AN/ARC-210 RT-1990A(C) Radio; AN/ARC- 164(V) RT-1518 Radio; AN/ARC-153 Tactical Air Navigation; AN/ARN-147 VHF Receiver; AN/ARC-190 HF Radio; AN/ARC-222 VHF Radio w/SINCGARS; Classified Tactical Manuals; Cartridge Activated Devices/Propellant Activated Devices; M206 Flares; MJU-64/B Decoy; BBU-35A/B Impulse Carts; Joint Mission Planning System; Classified Computer Identification Numbers; Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program (ECISAP) support, support and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistical and program support. The total estimated value is $1.4 billion.
This proposed sale will support the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a major ally that is a force for political stability, and economic progress in the Asia-Pacific region. The proposed sale will improve New Zealand's capability to meet current and future threats by enhancing its current airlift capability.
This proposed sale will provide the capability to support national, United Nations, and other coalition operations. This purchase also includes sensors and performance improvements that will assist New Zealand during extensive maritime surveillance and reconnaissance as well as improve its search and rescue capability. Additionally, the extra cargo capacity and aircraft performance will greatly increase New Zealand's Antarctic mission capabilities while simultaneously increasing safety margins. New Zealand currently operates the C-l30H aircraft and will have no difficulty absorbing this equipment and support into its armed forces.
The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.
The prime contractor will be Lockheed Martin, Ft Worth, TX. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.
Implementation of this sale will require the assignment of up to three U.S. contractor representatives to New Zealand.
There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.
This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.
All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, [email protected].
Ok that's pretty much it then, it will be 5...no more or no less! I'm rather gutted not to see a 6th at the very least.... another generational investment opportunity wasted. I'm happy with the choice as a tactical platform, just not the numbers! I notice with interest that they'll be supplied with 'MX-20HD Electro-Optical/Infrared Imaging Systems' - ie: IR turrets as the P3K2 currently do.... I guess to enable them to help with SAR as they already currently do at times. I just hope this isn't the touted 'complimentary capability' for the P8 as 40Sqn doesn't have enough capacity already without taking on a new role. It'd be just typical of Govt to plump for that... do more with less!
It does say C130J rather than C130J-30 specifically, but then it mentions near the bottom '...the extra cargo capacity and aircraft performance' so that seems to pretty clearly indicate a bigger a/c (ie the '30')
I got that one wrong.
I thought that once October had slipped by it would be after summer, the return of Parliament and announced as a pre-budget sweetener.
Me too, but then you never know, they could buy a second tranche further down the line. I would've preferred 8 myself; we can but live in hope, he says sarcastically.
Actually I suspect you won't see an announcement in NZ parliament for a few months yet. This is not a Govt announcement, it's an American release rrelated to the FMS . Remember the FMS notification for the P8 was almost a year before the purchase was announced... agreed this is howvever more a 'known quantity' as far as a/c type goes. I think you'll still be right about it being a pre-budget sweetener.
Yeah, you know like me & everyone else on this forum that'll be extremely unlikely. I'd now like to see the NZDF start asking for an equal number of twin-turbo props to carry a RoRo light MPA suite for the 'complimentary' patrol work & also take a few of the smaller transport tasks off the Hercs. Ah, yeah... that's probably in the same la-la land queue as the 8 Hercs.
I did not expect the DSCA announcement and the release of the acquisition details before Christmas. Though I expected five airframes as that has been telegraphed for a couple of years.
AD is correct. These C-130's are very high spec which is commendable.
In 1965 we ordered a first tranche of three, followed up in 1969 with a further two. One thing is that 2-3 more vanilla airframes could always be bought as commercial sales add-on's from LM as a second tranche and easily be incorporated in 40Sqd. Sans much of the trick gear of this initial tranche- trash and trinket haulers up to the islands.
I am of the view that the complementary Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) capability to the P-8A that you mention above and is to be introduced in 2023 is looking more likely to be the MQ-9B SeaGuardian as the Pacific becomes more strategically critical. Additional KA-350's may seem the cheap option, but won't be able to meet the wider ISR expectations in play through the medium outlook as the goalposts have markedly shifted over the last 5 years.
They could do a bit of both because the KA350s have always been regarded as EEZ patrolling and AWO / ACO training platforms, plus their other 42 Sqn roles. I think that we will need to have more aircraft in the air in our EEZ in the future so the KA350s would be ideal for that role. Whilst we could access satellite and UAV date for EEZ surveillance, an aircraft with military markings, being seen regularly and often in EEZ airspace, actively undertaking surveillance does act as a good reminder for everybody to play by the rules.
I think that it will be a given that we will see more PRC fishing boats down in our region in the near and medium future, and they will require close monitoring often, because they are not averse to taking everything, regardless of what the locals think. The PRC southern blue economic passage that I mentioned in my post in the NZDF thread, is something that I am beginning to consider a clear and present danger to NZ security and way of life, especially if the PRC establish a naval / air base(s) in the Pacific Islands that would be able to interdict and / or block our SLOC with North and South America. Hence, the MQ-9B Guardian would, as you suggest, be better for the more intense ISR requirements further out into the Pacific and up around the islands.
That's 1.4 B USD, which puts it just over 2.1 B NZD. I am interested in the politics. NZ Min Def was quoting over 1B NZD (he wasn't wrong) when he announced that he was seeking pricing but it has come in at over 2 billion? How's that going to play in cabinet and with the voters? See what the NZ papers say tomorrow.
I remember the initial project budget figure for the NH-90 was $500Bn but in the end was something like $775Bn so there's precedent. He'll just wave it away with talk of the shelf price versus the full up cost including support... which isn't actually innaccurate.
I think there'll nothing in the papers as this is a US release about a FMS application, it is not specifically confirmation of an order, even though clearly NZ has requested pricing & permission to buy 5. I doubt this will make it to NZ papers, but even if it did, the Hercs are 1 platform pretty much everyone, yes including even the Greens, believe in.
Yes I suspect we will see NZ start to show a degree of concern over the NZDF's ability to keep an eye on the Pacific, a concern driven significantly by the PRC. What that will translate into in terms of a platform is anyone's guess but still $$$ will come to the fore in any such decision. What are MQ-9B SeaGuardians selling for? AIUI these large drones have extensive backroom support requirements so in terms of manpower costs to operate are not that less expensive than a manned aircraft... even a land based crew have a maximum time 'on board' and must be swapped out... makes me wonder if 3 more Hercs wouldn't be a suitable alternative given the synergies it would give as it doesn't require a new type.
Everyone agrees that it should be replaced but even the 2019 DCP states "over 1 billion" and I think there will be some in cabinet who will ask the question. NZ Defence were probably thinking at least 1.5 billion but let's not scare the horses and call it "over 1 billion". Something is going to give - number of aircraft, extras, future 757 replacement, navy's LHD dream - let's see. It wont appear in the NZ press? I expect Scoop to open fire first, followed by Stuff and then the Herald.
The SeaGuardian is a SkyGuardian variant and on 26th March 2019, Belgium received DSCA approval for the acquisition of 4 MQ-9B SkyGuardian UAV and related equipment for an estimated cost of US$600 million. That includes 2 Fixed Certifiable Ground Control Stations. So if we were to acquire 4 then possibly another US$100 million for the maritime surveillance radars and AIS. That's just a guesstimate.
SeaGuardian is at the higher end of the proposed funding band for the capability.
http://www.ga-asi.com/Websites/gaas..._systems/pdf/SeaGuardian_DataSheet_111418.pdf
The P-8A is part of a small family of systems along with Triton and WGS et al in the maritime awareness domain and I have read elsewhere (but cannot find the link for you sorry or may have been a paper document) that speaks of Sea Guardian joining that family of systems.
This will then of course provide the synergies that the USN at JAX are developing with their joint P-8A and Triton operations as outlined in this article I posted some years ago.
Triton Joins Poseidon in Forging a 21st Century Maritime Combat Capability: Operating a Dyad, Rather than a Single Platform - Second Line of Defense
Novascotiaboy
Active Member
I missed the announcement and only just got the time to surf and saw this first at Defence Aerospace.
I am concerned with the lack of wording respecting the -30 stretched designation. Does anyone here know if the added kit conforms to the promoted SOF version from a year ago? I am not a techie so alot of what was listed in the FMS release didnt mean much.
The precident from the first purchase a half century ago of two buys may offer hope for a couple more airframes. Five just isnt enough. I think MrC's earlier post about five undefined delivery dates will likely be for the RNZAF.
Regardless of the limited number this is a milestone that is long overdue. Good job Ron Mark and staff for getting this as far as you have.
I am concerned with the lack of wording respecting the -30 stretched designation. Does anyone here know if the added kit conforms to the promoted SOF version from a year ago? I am not a techie so alot of what was listed in the FMS release didnt mean much.
The precident from the first purchase a half century ago of two buys may offer hope for a couple more airframes. Five just isnt enough. I think MrC's earlier post about five undefined delivery dates will likely be for the RNZAF.
Regardless of the limited number this is a milestone that is long overdue. Good job Ron Mark and staff for getting this as far as you have.