Indonesian Aero News

[jack412]

UK are quitting their first batch of typoons in 2015+, so there might be something to it

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I Don't think Starstreak can be considered cheap low end stuff. Moreover if you compared with Polish stuff. Still like I said in my previous post. Have to be careful to read the info from Indonesia Media these days. A lot of unconfirmed info moving around, even a respectable media like Tempo can get slip, like their claim of Typhoon deal that I've put forward above.

Yes youre right, lets wait and see....

 

[STURM]

I Don't think Starstreak can be considered cheap low end stuff. Moreover if you compared with Polish stuff.

Agreed. I would very much doubt if compared to IR seeking MANPADS from certain countries, Starstreak could be considered cheap. The Starstreak is a follow on to the Starburst, is also laser guided and has 3 darts fitted with explosives. Buyers have a choice of mounting their Startreaks in 3s on Lightweight Multiple Launchers - like what Malaysia did with its Starbursts.
The British use the Air Defence Alerting Device [ADAD] for target alerting with their Starstreaks but according to what I was told by someone, ADAD doesn't work well in SEA due to the high humidity levels. The only known export so far is South Africa and if if I'm not mistaken, Starstreak for a while was limited to only NATO countries [I know I read that somewhere years ago]. A combination of Starstreak and IR seeking missiles would be tough for any low level aircraft to evade.

Ananda, what vehicle has the POPRAD launcher been mounted on?

 

[Ananda]

Ananda, what vehicle has the POPRAD launcher been mounted on?

So far, the official photograph that I've seen, mounted on the Land Rover. That's been talk on mounting them on various different chassis, but no real development that I know of.

UK are quitting their first batch of typoons in 2015+, so there might be something to it

Yes, and I believe this already being talked from last year, about possibility getting Typhoon Tranche 1 (UK have 57 of them if not mistaken). However, booth UK and Indonesian Min-def already deny this.

Tempo is one of respectable media in Indonesia, and they should put more scrutiny on what their Journalist wrote, even on their on-line sites. What I'm getting at, there's a lot of speculations and many with weak based (close to rumors) that's being circulated in the media, related to what Indonesian Min-def procurement projects. For my self, until it's being confirmed by official sources, plus wrote by more that one media (including International ones), I usually put much ' benefit of doubt' on the Indonesian procurement information.

Besides with US know willing to support more F-16, and more procurement with Flankers, while Hawk 209 still operational, there's simply no room for Typhoon with Indonesian Air Force. It's simply too expensive for operational costs to support more than 3 Front line types.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Agreed. I would very much doubt if compared to IR seeking MANPADS from certain countries, Starstreak could be considered cheap. The Starstreak is a follow on to the Starburst, is also laser guided and has 3 darts fitted with explosives. Buyers have a choice of mounting their Startreaks in 3s on Lightweight Multiple Launchers - like what Malaysia did with its Starbursts.
The British use the Air Defence Alerting Device [ADAD] for target alerting with their Starstreaks but according to what I was told by someone, ADAD doesn't work well in SEA due to the high humidity levels. The only known export so far is South Africa and if if I'm not mistaken, Starstreak for a while was limited to only NATO countries [I know I read that somewhere years ago]. A combination of Starstreak and IR seeking missiles would be tough for any low level aircraft to evade.

Oke, with its range of 7 km its indeed a hightech high velocity but-still-a-short-range air defence system. Even the QW-3 has a further range (8km). And all ADSs used by us are only capable to take down low slow flying objects from a short distance. Giant Bow, QW-3, Kobra, Mistral, RBS-70 (still active?), S-60, Rheinmetal Rh202, 40L70, Strela (on the Parchim I class)...and none of them can shoot down a tactical cruise missile, PGMs or even a simple airliner at 6 km height.

Ananda, what vehicle has the POPRAD launcher been mounted on?

The radar, the battery command post and the Poprad system are all mounted on the Hussar vehicle, which
is in fact the Land Rover Defender 110. The Team company in Wroclaw, Poland modified the Land Rover vehicles for the Kobra application.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

According wiki

Operators

United Kingdom

* LML - 135 systems
* SP HVM - 150 systems (approx)

South Africa

* LML - 8 systems

Indonesia

* LML - 350 systems

But thats Bullsh!t ofcourse edited by an underage kid or an idiot.

 

[Ananda]

Oke, with its range of 7 km its indeed a hightech high velocity but-still-a-short-range air defence system. Even the QW-3 has a further range (8km). And all ADSs used by us are only capable to take down low slow flying objects from a short distance. Giant Bow, QW-3, Kobra, Mistral, RBS-70 (still active?), S-60, Rheinmetal Rh202, 40L70, Strela (on the Parchim I class)...and none of them can shoot down a tactical cruise missile, PGMs or even a simple airliner at 6 km height.

I think I've comment sometime ago, that after withdrawal of SA-2 in the early 70's, TNI did not have area defense SAM capability. Since then with Rapier etc, they're only equipped themselves with Point Defense SAM. Still, Starstreak (if it's true being procured) in my opinion provide better performance for Point Defense SAM than other existing Point Defense system that TNI used today.

The local forum already buzzing for some time with talk about getting SA-300, but until then (if those local fan-boys predictions come true, in which so far none), the point defense is still the only SAM system that TNI confirmed being used.

TNI-AU with SA-2 already proved they can effectively operated Area Defense regime. Why then they haven't got the new Area Defense system, is beyond me. Considering the fund that will be used for Area Defense system, relative to other Air Defense assets, is not considerably higher.

 

[STURM]

Oke, with its range of 7 km its indeed a hightech high velocity but-still-a-short-range air defence system.

For some reason, the Starburst and the follow Starstreak didn't attract much customers, possibly due to the price tag. Malaysia was the 2nd export customer, after Canada, for the Starburst when it ordered 48 for all 3 services. Problem with laser guided missiles is that they are line of sight SACLOS weapons, but are immune to flares, which are carried by almost every fighter.

and none of them can shoot down a tactical cruise missile, PGMs .

Tue but they were not designed to . There are meant to deal with low flying planes, helicopters and UAVs, anything below 10,000 feet.

Still, Starstreak (if it's true being procured) in my opinion provide better performance for Point Defense SAM than other existing Point Defense system that TNI used today.

A lot depends on how much warning the operators get of an incoming target. A combination of a laser guided Starstreak and an IR guided QW-3 would make it tough for a fighter to deal with. Not sure about others but I read somewhere that Soviet doctrine called for at least 2-3 missiles to be used to increase the kill probability. Do you know if the QW-3 has ben fitted with a Western IFF? The Malaysian army has fitted Thales IFFs on its Chinese supplied FN-6s.

 

[Ananda]

Do you know if the QW-3 has ben fitted with a Western IFF? The Malaysian army has fitted Thales IFFs on its Chinese supplied FN-6s.

So far, officially TNI-AU told the media they are in the process of integrating the National Air Defense network. This integration consists of Early Warning/Radar system, Satellite data transferring, and integrated field data system.

In theory if they manage to do this, the field system, like the Point defense system included QW-3 will be integrated to the network. The network it self will be based to western standard system, since the Indonesian main Air Defense radar mostly build by Thompson and Thales. Thus this included western IFF system.

How far and when they can manage to complete this network centric environment for National Air Defense grid ? Well that's the question

QW-3 in Indonesian inventory used by Air Force special forces for based defense. So they should be included in the plan Air Force network. However the Strastreak, RBS-70, Polish Grom, used by the Army Air defense unit. I don't think they will be included in the plan network. But off course I could be wrong

 

[STURM]

Ananda,

If I'm not mistaken, due to a break in relations with the Soviet Union, most of the MiGs were not flying by the late 1960's due to a lack of spares. So what fighters was AURI flying before the transfer of 5 ex-RMAF Sabres in 1975? Or were some MiGs still operational well into the early 1970's?

 

[Ananda]

Ananda,

If I'm not mistaken, due to a break in relations with the Soviet Union, most of the MiGs were not flying by the late 1960's due to a lack of spares. So what fighters was AURI flying before the transfer of 5 ex-RMAF Sabres in 1975? Or were some MiGs still operational well into the early 1970's?

Some Mig 17 and Mig 15 UTI still in operation until early part of 70's, and L-29 until end of 70's. Besides that according to historical data, they (TNI-AU) operating B-26 and P-51 until they got Sabres (some ex RMAF but most ex RAAF) and T-33 (ex USAF). P-51 and B-26 uses as COIN until being replaced by OV-10. Those B-26 being used as Air Cover for East Timor Invasions. Sabres replaced the Mig 17, whille T-33 replaced the Mig 15 UTI. L-29 later on in the early 80's being replaced by Hawk Mk 53.

Some recent historical highlight seems show that the after Soekarno fall, the Sovyet still offering Soeharto spares and weapons in order to keep Soekarno's Migs fying. However Soeharto made deal with the US and West for WB and IMF support, and part of the deal is for Indonesia to disband Mig 21 and TU-16 from operation. It's those two type that really concern US and Aussies afterall. The deal also included for Soeharto agreed in dismantling unfinished plutonium breeder reactor that Sovyet supply Soekarno in Serpong, in return for US provide research nuclear reactor in Bandung.

In short, seems in contrast with popular believed, it's not the Sovyet that primarily made TNI-AU Migs and other Sovyet/East Block inoperable, but it's Soeharto choices. Infact at beggining Sovyet still hope to keep their good relations with Indonesia after Soekarno fall, simply since most Communist factions that initially being pursued by Soeharto and the Army are the factions that're more friendly with Beijing. Besides deal with the US, Soeharto neglect for the Air Force in the first period of his reign, mostly due to the fact he wanted to 'punnish' the Air Force due to their loyalty to Soekarno.

Indonesia never break relations with Sovyet, it's China that Indonesia broke the relations until being mended again in the 90's. Some Historian suggest that the Sovyet seems always ready to regain the support, if Soeharto agreed. It's just Soeharto already too deep and too dependent with the West support, that he can't afford latter on in his reign to become too friendly with the Sovyet.

 

[Ananda]

Northrop Gruman collaborate with Indonesian State Owned Electronic Company (PT. LEN) in producing Ground based Radar system : Northrop Grumman to Collaborate With Indonesian Partner Companies to Produce Ground-Based Radar Systems (NYSE:NOC)

BALTIMORE, Md. -- April 23, 2012 -- Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC) executed a Memorandum of Understanding at the Sixth National Radar Seminar in Bali, Indonesia with PT Industri Telekomunikasi Indonesia and the Research Centre For Electronics And Telecommunications of The Indonesian Institute Of Sciences to facilitate collaboration on pending ground-based radar opportunities in Indonesia.

The Northrop Grumman AN/TPS-78 is the latest generation of state-of-the-art radars made possible by advances in high power transistor technology and designed to operate in some of the harshest, most unforgiving environments. Proven in the field, the S-Band long-range AN/TPS-78 is the choice of the U.S. Air Force and customers worldwide.

Before that Thales already hook-up with an Indonesian Private Electronic company to collaborate with possible local production on Ground Based Radar.
With increasing political pressure to include local manufacturers on producing TNI equipment, established International Radar players begin to collaborate with Indonesian partners for locally produced Ground Based Early Warning Radar.

 

[Gadjah Mada]

Northrop Gruman collaborate with Indonesian State Owned Electronic Company (PT. LEN) in producing Ground based Radar system : Northrop Grumman to Collaborate With Indonesian Partner Companies to Produce Ground-Based Radar Systems (NYSE:NOC)

If I am not mistaken, PT Industri Telekomunikasi Indonesia is PT INTI -http://www.inti.co.id-a state company in telecommunication, while LEN is Lembaga Elektronika Negara with official name PT LEN industri-http://www.len.co.id/- now, a different institution. However, PT LEN Industri itself historically has a very close link with Research Centre For Electronics And Telecommunications of The Indonesian Institute Of Sciences.

Hopefully the cooperation with Northrop Gruman will give them more insight in radar industry, after cooperation with TU Delft provided earlier knowhow to design and develop radar.

 

[Ananda]

If I am not mistaken, PT Industri Telekomunikasi Indonesia is PT INTI -http://www.inti.co.id-a state company in telecommunication, while LEN is Lembaga Elektronika Negara with official name PT LEN industri-http://www.len.co.id/- now, a different institution. However, PT LEN Industri itself historically has a very close link with Research Centre For Electronics And Telecommunications of The Indonesian Institute Of Sciences.

Yes, Thanks. My Mistake. PT. INTI is the one that collaborate with Northrop Grumman and not PT. LEN. PT. LEN seems will collaborate with Thales Raytheon, and PT. CMI with Lockheed Martin. Thus three established Radar manufactures find local partner to Manufactured/Assembly ground based radar locally if they got the project.

CMI is a private company, while both INTI and LEN is state owned company (so I also corrected my earlier statement that Thales collaborated with a local private company, while the info shows Thales collaborated with LEN which also state owned company).

INTI and Northrop will put AN/TPS 77, LEN and Lockheed will put AN/TPS 78, while CMI with Thales will put Ground Master (GM) 400 in the table.

 

[Ananda]

First Indonesian 'Total' Made Satellite will be Launch soon.

From Tempo on-line with Google translate:
Indonesia Akan Terbitkan Satelit Baru | teknologi | Tempo.co

TEMPO.CO, Jakarta - Deputy Head of Aerospace Technology National Aeronautics and Space Institute (LAPAN) Soewarto Hardhienta said LAPAN will orbit an artificial satellite Indonesia in August.

"It is entirely artificial satellites Indonesia," said Soewanto in the office of the Ministry of Education and Culture, on Monday afternoon, June 4, 2012.

Satellites that will diorbitkan was named LAPAN-A2. He said LAPAN include three main devices in the satellites. The first device is the photographer of the Earth. Later Indonesia could take pictures of Earth from space with satellites

This will be the third satellite by Lapan, but First totally build by them. The other two was collaborating effort with Berlin Institute of Technology. It also the first satellite with multiple capabilities build by them. The Satellite will be able to conducts terrain mapping and photograph, and also monitoring ship-lanes and and relaying short band radio transmissions used by amateur radio operators.

Lapan will still relied with external launch vehicles, since their own launch vehicles still under development.

 

[Saracens]

Any news about what rocket will be use to orbit that satellite?

Or when and where it will be?
What companies take involve to the rocket maker ?

 

[Gadjah Mada]

Any news about what rocket will be use to orbit that satellite?

Or when and where it will be?
What companies take involve to the rocket maker ?

I think you should read the source in the link. They will use Indian Satellite Launch Vehicle. I think LAPAN needs more time and absolutely more money for their RPS project.

But to make a satellite fully on their own is quite an achievement.

 

[Ananda]

It's quite an achievement considering the agency so far only have budget for a few million dollars annually. The budget have to be relocated to various programs such as Satellite program, Launch Vehicle program, and Space Tracking program. With that kind of budget, it's an accomplishment in my book when they can advancing on their programs.

 

[Ananda]

TNI-AU's Fokker 27 Crash near Halim AB, Jakarta

One TNI-AU's Fokker 27 crashe near Halim AB on 14:40 PM Jakarta Time : Fokker 27 crashes in Halim | The Jakarta Post

This is the second F-27 Troopship of Indonesian AF (TNI-AU) that crash in the last 3 years. In 2009 another F-27 crash in Bandung killing 24 people mostly TNI-AU special forces. Today incident the F-27 carry 7 people during what TNI-AU called routine exercise.

The Aircraft fell near Halim AB, and destroying 2-6 houses on the nearby TNI-AU housing complex. No news yet on possible casualty in the ground.

This Aircraft first introduce to TNI-AU inventory on 1976, and scheduled to be replaced by 9 C-295 circa 2014-2016. Thus by the time they are being replaced most of them already have around 40 years in service.

 

[anan]

What transportation fixed wing turboprop aircraft does Indonesia manufacture or operate or potentially plan to procure?

I see:
- 4 C130s (Indonesia operates but does not manufacture under license)
- C-295/C-235s
- C212

Let us say a country wanted to buy a brand new bird and operate it for 20 years at a high operational tempo.

What would be the cost per year (or over 20 years) to operate the following aircraft?:
-C130
-C-295
-C-235
-C-27
-C212

Let us assume they are flown 1000 hours per year or 20,000 hours over 20 years; and that each aircraft goes through a major upgrade refit around 12 years into use. Let us include the cost of new engines, fuels, spares, electronics, and maintenance service person hours.

My estimate is that the:
-C130 costs $400 million over 20 years
-C27 costs $260 million over 20 years
-don't have good estimates for C-235, C-295, C212

Any help in how to calculate the life cycle cost of these aircraft would be appreciated. As would other useful data, such as how easy it is to train maintenance personal in how to maintain them; weakness and strengths of these various platforms, etc.