Indonesian Aero News

[Ananda]

Grippen the Lowest Operating Cost Western Fighter ?

Found this link Gripen operational cost lowest of all western fighters: Jane of StratPost which claim based on : " The study conducted by IHS Jane's Aerospace and Defense Consulting, compared the operational costs of the Gripen, Lockheed Martin F-16, Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, Dassault’s Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and the F-35 aircraft ".

The operational cost of the Swedish Saab Gripen aircraft is the lowest among a flightline of modern fighters, confirmed a White Paper submitted by the respected international defense publishing group IHS Jane’s, in response to a study commissioned by Saab.

“At an estimated $4,700 per hour (2012 USD), the Gripen compares very favorably with the Block 40 / 50 F-16s which are its closest competitor at an estimated $7,000 per hour,” says the report, adding, “The F-35 and twin-engined designs are all significantly more expensive per flight hour owing to their larger size, heavier fuel usage and increased number of airframe and systems parts to be maintained and repaired. IHS Jane’s believes that aircraft unit cost and size is therefore roughly indicative of comparative CPFH.”

On the validity of the study, the report admitted:

The report says it is most confident about the data and its conclusions on the Gripen, F-16 and the F/A-18 ‘with good primary and secondary source data supported by logical results from our deductive modeling.’

The numbers for the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale are less certain, in comparison, but the report submits that ‘the comparative modeling output appears to confirm IHS Jane’s estimates’ for them.

I'm no expert on this, but considering the study result (even-though it's admit as a study commissioned by SAAB), seems the study model for comparative case is through enough. However for a single engine fighter, how come the costs of F-35 is very expensive ? Is it considering the 'inflation' costs for the next 25-30 years ?

As for me, This study confirm what TNI-AU findings that F-16 is the most appropriate fighters for them at this time. It can provide 'relative' comparable capabilities with the like of Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon, but operating on less cost than them.

 

[jack412]

That doesn't seem to be apple to apple, the combined F-35a/b/c is about 50% dearer than the f-16, which on the way they cost would be $10,500
the f-35a would also be a lot cheaper if it was split off separately from the b&c because they are dearer to run

page 84
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/articles/communiques/F-35Dec11FinalSAR-3-29-2012.pdf

Total Unitized Cost (Base Year 2012 $) F-35 a/b/c $31.923 --- f-16c/d $22.470

 

[Ananda]

I think the study already admitted the separations of operating cost of F-35A with the B/C variants :

The cost of operation of the F-35 appears to be in a whole other league. Jane’s cites Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) estimates for the conventional F-35 A, assuming operational service over 30 years with 200 hours per year for each aircraft, to amount to USD 21000 per hour of flight. The paper also sources US Navy projections of the cost of operation of the F-35 B & C variants until the year 2029, which come to USD 31000 per flight hour.

So according to this USD 10,000 per hour different between A with B/C. Still it's a very high for a single engine Fighters compared to what Grippen and F-16 have. If I read the report seems the difference constitute to projected costs over next 30 years (thus I believe calculating inflation factors). However if this right, assuming USD base pricing (with historical USD discounted base priced over 30 years), seems F-35 operating costs will still be relatively higher than F-16.

 

[jack412]

Thanks for that I missed it at first, even the f-16 7k vs f-35a 21k doesnt seem right going by the link I gave, they are well under on the f-16 compaired to what usa say the f-16 costs, to me it's not apple to apple and there are seperate methods for the saab gripen and f-16 costs in the article

I think australia's running costs would be more than USA's because we are running a smaller fleet of f-35A (100 vs 2000) and only 24 fa-18f.
the RAAF quoted price is about right for our f-35a and fa-18 in the article, our costings say they are about the same price to run for us

 

[Ananda]

First TNI-AU C-295 conducting test flight in EADS facility (ex CASA) in Spain. According to the procurement contract, TNI-AU procured 9 C-295 in which 2 completely build by EADS Spain, while the rest 7 will be build by PT. DI in Bandung. DI will got license to manufactured all C-295 marketed for Asia-Pacific in future as CN-295.

The urgency of those C-295 is hasten with recent crash of TNI-AU Fokker 27 which they plan to replace. As the result of the crash, all 5 remaining F-27 are grounded and TNI-AU for time being will rely only with CN-235 (6-8 in the fleet) as light-medium transport.

 

[Ananda]

I think australia's running costs would be more than USA's because we are running a smaller fleet of f-35A (100 vs 2000)

the RAAF quoted price is about right for our f-35a and fa-18 in the article, our costings say they are about the same price to run

If I read this right, The RAAF finding found F-35A will have relatively similar operating cost with FA-18 right ? In other word this land based single engine fighter will cost similar to operate with Twin engine Naval derived fighter.

Well as non-expert, I think the operating costs of F-35A should be come more in 'relative' similar ball-park of F-16 which they plan to replace in the beginning .
If this correct than USAF will be burden of relative higher costs when operating F-35A compared to their F-16 fleet. Perhaps this is due to smaller number of F-35A compared to F-16.

Note:
Oo okay, I missed your comment on different cost method on calculating F-16 cost between this study, and the link you gave.

 

[Ananda]

Second Batch of 8 Super Tucano for Indonesian AF (TNI-AU) confirmed being ordered :
FARNBOROUGH: Indonesia places follow-on order for Super Tucanos

"Embraer signed a contract for the second batch of Super Tucano airplanes," says Luiz Carlos Aguiar, president of Embraer Defense and Security.

Indonesia has already ordered a batch of eight such aircraft, the first of which is set to be delivered this year, he says. The first four aircraft should arrive in a "couple of months".

Deliveries of the first batch should be completed in 2013. That would be followed shortly by the second batch, which is set to be delivered starting 2014. All eight aircraft in the second batch will be delivered in 2014.

Attached is some picture got from Local Forum for Indonesian Tucano being prepared and tested on Embraer facility. The follow up order has been expected. The order being divided in to two batches as required by multi years budget system that now being used as part of Indonesian Procurement budgets.

 

[Ananda]

Some Pictures from Pitch Black Training in Darwin Australia, of Indonesian AF (TNI-AU) Flankers in formation with RAAF Hornet. In participating with Pitch Black, TNI-AU send 2 SU-27 SKM, and 2 SU-30 MK2. Some pictures taken from Local forum, but also got from RAAF sites.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Thanks Ananda fr the pics!
Btw, found some more highr res pics.
Exercise Pitch Black 2012

Two Australian No.77 Squadron F/A-18 Hornet welcome Indonesian Air Force (TNI-AU) Sukhoi Su-27 & Su-30 Flanker into Darwin to participate in Exercise Pitch Black 2012.

Pictures taken from http://images.defence.gov.au/fotowe...=2&sorting=ModifiedTimeAsc&search=pitch black

 

[old faithful]

thanks for posting those pics! Ive been watching all sorts for days now, including F15/16/18 AND NOW THE SU,S

 

[Ananda]

Thanks Ananda fr the pics!
Btw, found some more highr res pics.
Exercise Pitch Black 2012

Two Australian No.77 Squadron F/A-18 Hornet welcome Indonesian Air Force (TNI-AU) Sukhoi Su-27 & Su-30 Flanker into Darwin to participate in Exercise Pitch Black 2012.

Pictures taken from All Images - FotoWeb 7.0

I wonder if those TNI SU bring any weapon/missiles. Kind a cool if there are some Pictures from Pitch Black that can confirm if Indonesian Flankers already equipped with Missiles. TNI is really keep tight on any confirmation of what kind of Missiles (if any) already being equipped for the Flankers.

Missiles/Armament deal is different with Airframe deal in TNI procurement practices Some info already put USD 50+ mio deal with Rosoboron for Flankers armament. But haven't found detail of the deal yet.

 

[Dobret81]

Hi Everyone... Im a New member on this forum.. Any insights on the result of the pitch black 2012 exercise?

Also read in one of the defence blog that the US is offering another batch of F16, any thoughts on this?..

 

[rand0m]

An interesting article over at the Jakarta Post, the TNI-AU to have "air parity" with Singapore & Malaysia by 2024, possible? "Indonesia is expected to have an Air Force that is on par with China and the United States in dominating Southeast Asia by 2045", possible?

TNI-AU could rival China, US by 2045, expert says
The Jakarta Post, Jakarta | National | Tue, April 10 2012, 8:26 PM
A- A A+
Indonesia is expected to have an Air Force that is on par with China and the United States in dominating Southeast Asia by 2045, University of Indonesia defense expert Andi Widjajanto said Tuesday.

Speaking at the International Air Power Seminar 2012, Andi said that the Indonesian Air Force (TNI-AU) capacity for air force dominance in 2012 was slightly below that of Malaysia, with the strongest being the US, quoting Jane’s Southeast Asia Air Force Inventory 2012.

If Indonesia goes to war with the US, the TNI-AU would be put in a state of paralysis against the superpower, being air subordinate relative to the super power.

Air subordination refers to the weakness of a country's air force relative to other countries. As of 2012, Indonesia is considered subordinate to countries like China, but is considered air superior to countries such as East Timor.

If Indonesia fights against Malaysia, the two countries would be on equal grounds in terms of air force dominance capabilities, or what in military terminology is referred to as air parity.

“We already have strategic plans [for the air force] for at least until 2024. The government has already planned that and we will reach the country’s minimum essential force requirement by that year,” Andi said. “By that year, we will reach air parity with Singapore and Malaysia.”

“We will have air dominance throughout Southeast Asia by 2045.”

Andi said Indonesia would have air parity with countries such as China, the Five Power Defense Arrangements (FPDA) and the US.

“But we still don’t know how we will be in the position of air dominance with those countries,” he said.

China, for example, has bombers which can reach Australia, he said. (png)

TNI-AU could rival China, US by 2045, expert says | The Jakarta Post

 

[Ananda]

An interesting article over at the Jakarta Post, the TNI-AU to have "air parity" with Singapore & Malaysia by 2024, possible? "Indonesia is expected to have an Air Force that is on par with China and the United States in dominating Southeast Asia by 2045", possible?


TNI-AU could rival China, US by 2045, expert says | The Jakarta Post

Yeah right. Another Indonesian Carlo Koop wannabe

 

[ADMk2]

An interesting article over at the Jakarta Post, the TNI-AU to have "air parity" with Singapore & Malaysia by 2024, possible? "Indonesia is expected to have an Air Force that is on par with China and the United States in dominating Southeast Asia by 2045", possible?

Um, with all due respects to Indonesia, no Professor. Just no... The essential difference is the sustained levels of funding and overall resourcing that can be dedicated to the task.

The US defence budget in this time of "fiscal restraint" is USD$711 Billion dollars. China's as publicly announced, is USD$143B. Indonesia's entire GDP is "only" USD$846B and it's publicly announced defence budget is USD$6B.

Indonesia has been historically unable or at least unwilling to even match the percentage of GDP allocated to defence that China, Singapore and yes, Australia do and none of these Countries match what the US invests in defence, even on a percentage of GDP level.

If $711b is what the USA can invest in defence in a relative time of peace (by it's standards, ie: all major state v state conflicts are currently complete) then what it could invest in a more financially stable environment or in a time of crisis is truly staggering.

No Country in the world with the possible exception of China is going to be able to match that in the forseeable future and certainly not within 30 odd years...

Overmatch Singapore by 2025? Possible, so long as one assumes a substantial increase in allocated resources, training activities and overall force development, whilst Singapore sits idly by, watching a near neighbour rapidly arming and doesn't increase her capability likewise...

Edit: Just noticed the date in that article. Sure it wasn't released on April 1?

 

[Ananda]

Um, with all due respects to Indonesia, no Professor. Just no... The essential difference is the sustained levels of funding and overall resourcing that can be dedicated to the task.

The US defence budget in this time of "fiscal restraint" is USD$711 Billion dollars. China's as publicly announced, is USD$143B. Indonesia's entire GDP is "only" USD$846B and it's publicly announced defence budget is USD$6B.

Indonesia has been historically unable or at least unwilling to even match the percentage of GDP allocated to defence that China, Singapore and yes, Australia do and none of these Countries match what the US invests in defence, even on a percentage of GDP level.

If $711b is what the USA can invest in defence in a relative time of peace (by it's standards, ie: all major state v state conflicts are currently complete) then what it could invest in a more financially stable environment or in a time of crisis is truly staggering.

No Country in the world with the possible exception of China is going to be able to match that in the forseeable future and certainly not within 30 odd years...

Overmatch Singspore by 2025? Possible, so long as one assumes a substantial increase in allocated resources, training activities and overall force development, whilst Singapore sits idly by, watching a near neighbour rapidly arming and doesn't increase her capability likewise...

2014 is closing by. The Defence expenditure is increasing, albeit realistically if you see the procurement it's more for replacing old capabilities and not so much for an exponential increase in capacity.

However with increasing budget, and election time closing by, suddenly defense become 'new' game in town. All Parties now using NGO's or so called 'expert' and all basically put some claim which mostly shallow claim, and then being exposed by 'simphetatic' media and 'whoalla' a groundless claim become a legitimate claim (at least in the surface).

Some NGO continue put accusation that majority of budget will be used to buy 'used' assets which they claim 'junk'. The refurbished F-16 and ex RAAF C-130H are their main example, even though the procurement of those so called 'junk' assets actually only make small percentage of budget.

Another example is a complete missdirection of their accusations, like from nowhere they claim the USD 280 mio deal for ex 'Bundeswher' Leo 2 actually is USD 5 bio deal. Yeah right USD 5 bio for 100 ex Bundeswher Leo 2 or USD 50 mio per 1 Leo 2. Talking about credibility

Is politics on the lowest and stupidiest playground. Amateurish, when someone that can't differentiate between F-16 and F-18 suddenly become so called expert. It's a laughing stock, and for me as Indonesian is embarassing, when the so called honorable parliament members goes down using those tactics, just so they can prolong the procurement process in order to gain some last stage deal. The Procurement of Leo 2 is one of the big example. The so called opposition for Leo 2 procurement, now some of them already switching to become one of the big supporters.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

An interesting article over at the Jakarta Post, the TNI-AU to have "air parity" with Singapore & Malaysia by 2024, possible? "Indonesia is expected to have an Air Force that is on par with China and the United States in dominating Southeast Asia by 2045", possible?

Pure bullsh!t from a sickminded lunatic which can not control his fantasy.

Air subordination refers to the weakness of a country's air force relative to other countries. As of 2012, Indonesia is considered subordinate to countries like China, but is considered air superior to countries such as East Timor.

You dont have to be a 'defence expert':haha to know this.


Im disappointed in the Jakartapost,i expected some better articles than some fanboycrap.

 

[Gadjah Mada]

Pure bullsh!t from a sickminded lunatic which can not control his fantasy.

You dont have to be a 'defence expert':haha to know this.


Im disappointed in the Jakartapost,i expected some better articles than some fanboycrap.

I do not feel that bad about the Jakarta Post. Most Indonesian press slowly but sure are in the process between turning into a tabloid style or politically affiliated media.

I feel ashamed that this Andi Widjajanto is a lecturer in Universitas Indonesia, which is considered as one of the best universities in Indonesia. As an academician he should be much smarter than this in producing comments.

We will not see the same rubbish from any professors in universities in Singapore or Australia for example.

It is an embarrassment to Indonesian education.

 

[Gadjah Mada]

Yeah right. Another Indonesian Carlo Koop wannabe

Sorry, I disagree Ananda. Carlo Kopp at least has some knowledge in hardware. His arguments sometimes show some data. If you read his articles, you will find very detail explanation. It required some hard works in data gathering. He will not make mistakes in identifying MBT Leopard, Marder and Puma which even a beginner fanboy could do easily.

This Andi Widjajanto I believe cannot even distinguish how an academician and a politician supposed to talks. No wonder if you checks in Wikipedia, most notable UI alumni are politicians regardless their major

 

[Ananda]

Sorry, I disagree Ananda. Carlo Kopp at least has some knowledge in hardware. His arguments sometimes show some data. If you read his articles, you will find very detail explanation. It required some hard works in data gathering. He will not make mistakes in identifying MBT Leopard, Marder and Puma which even a beginner fanboy could do easily.

This Andi Widjajanto I believe cannot even distinguish how an academician and a politician supposed to talks. No wonder if you checks in Wikipedia, most notable UI alumni are politicians regardless their major

He,he, That's why I said Carlo Kopp wannabe . Trying to come out as legitimate defence expert, but turn out producing just another third or even fourth grade rubbish that's (just like you say) even below what some beginners internet fan boys can produce.

The truth is, most of those so called 'defense' experts now in Indonesia, did not even posses legitimate defense back ground. Mostly come out from Political back ground, thus produce what the 'political order' that come to them. Well that's how they make their living this days, producing rubbish comment hoping to produce some kind of 'public' controversy which in the end just to 'stir-up' political back-deal in the parliament.

If you look the plan USD 8 bio 1013 defense budget, and look closely to the break down detail, and you come out around 40% for salaries and living conditions improvement for the defense personal, 20% for defense bureaucracy need, 20% for operations and maintenance and just 20% for procurement expenditure. So only in average less than around USD 2 bio annually for the last few years (and much more less in previous years) that can be allocated for procurements of new asset. Not what can be called large expenditure of new asset.

That's why, I said before, the procurement up until the end of this decade are mostly for upgrading existing capabilities. Back to TNI-AU, the Mindef hopes to get 10 sq of combat Airforce thus augment 3 sq from existing 7. However if you look of procurement up until 2014, then TNI AU still only has 7 or 8 sq (max) in which 1 sq of LIFT (TA-50), 1 sq of COIN (Super Tucano), 1 sq of SU-27/30, 2 sq of Hawk 100/200, and up to 3 sq of F-16 (which already included in them F-5 replacement). Those F-16 are refurbished ex USAF/ANG plus refurbished existing ones. Well with only around +/- USD 2 bio annually for new procurement that has to be divided for all three branches, TNI-AU we'll be lucky to get operational 3 sq refurbished F-16 by 2014-15.

Indonesia has a relative large Armed Force and spread out extensively to maintain, thus (for example) to match Singapore procurement practice, then the Budget need to be double. After all, unlike Indonesia, Singapore can allocated bigger percentage of their annual Defense expenditure to procurement compared to Indonesia due to smaller size of their Armed Forces. USD 8 bio for defense already create so much political controversy spear headed by those so called human rights NGO. Double of that, well only if the political land scape changes dramatically that can be happening.

We'll not get respectable defense expert from Indonesia soon, since Political necessity will drive more Political clowns pretend to be defense expert in the media. Well they the ones that get paid.