Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates

[ID-Forever]

Two Saab 340, one equipped with Erieye radar (AEW), had been delivered to Thailand one month ago and the first six Jas 39 - Grippen C/D will be delivered on 23 February 2011. I think this lightweight single-engine multirole fighter aircraft is a good choice for us to replace the Legendary F-5. Anyway, It's a different story for The Philippines. With an archipelago comprising 7,107 islands, Your country need twin-engine multirole fighter aircraft because it's capable of serving as a long-range interceptor. If i could i would choose the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet to fill the gap in The Philippines Air Force strike capability due to the further delays of F-35 Lightning II.

 

[jaeger_28]

yes, we have nothing against other countries that donate their old plane to us, i agree with you that our air force has the oldest plane in south east and i just read that bangladesh has already plan to upgrade and buy more modern equipment for there arm forces while we are still using the oldest equipment

That's true. We DO have the resources to upgrade our air force. I remember before that the during the Arroyo administration it was being considered to purchase F-16s from the US (although I think these were hand me downs, but hey they're vipers.). We all know the Bronco is a tough and reliable COIN aircraft, but it's already long in the tooth, not to mention they may be older than some of our pilots. The PAF desperately needs modernization, and getting "old" used aircraft is not going to help.

Two Saab 340, one equipped with Erieye radar (AEW), had been delivered to Thailand one month ago and the first six Jas 39 - Grippen C/D will be delivered on 23 February 2011. I think this lightweight single-engine multirole fighter aircraft is a good choice for us to replace the Legendary F-5. Anyway, It's a different story for The Philippines. With an archipelago comprising 7,107 islands, Your country need twin-engine multirole fighter aircraft because it's capable of serving as a long-range interceptor. If i could i would choose the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet to fill the gap in The Philippines Air Force strike capability due to the further delays of F-35 Lightning II.

How about the Mig-29/Mig-35? I bet they're a bit cheaper and they're quite capable multirole combat aircraft.

 

[kato]

With an archipelago comprising 7,107 islands [...]

Sweden, the home country of the Gripen, nominally includes 221,800 islands. Just saying

 

[jaeger_28]

Let's all face it, the Philippine Air Force will keep pushing this date back, and back. I would not at all be surprised if I read this again in 2020.

Given the limited lack of any real funding, the best the PAF can do is to upgrade their existing combat, utility, transport and training airframe assets. And to procure more of these types.

S-211's - Singapore has retired their S-211 fleet, which they originally ordered thirty. Take into account any possible losses (don't believe they lost any) and others to retain for museum displays the Philippine A.F. could probably procure at least twenty surplus ex. R.S.A.F. S-211's. These are fitted with more modern avionics and could be used for advanced jet training. The PAF's remaining 16 S-211s could be upgraded to provide a precision CAS ability with a nose mounted LD.

OV-10A/C/M Bronco's - The entire mixed Bronco fleet needs to be upgraded to M standard (Modernized) of which their are only about 4 in existence. The C models acquired from Thailand upgrade these with the remaining A models would give the PAF more capability and a more economical cost savings and most importantly increase the overall numbers in service.

MG-520D's - Buy more..... either surplus from Israel or new from USA and upgrade all with a FLIR turret, cockpit armor package, Night Vision Goggles, GPS navigation system, secure radios for ground unit commu' and a Gecal .50 mini-gun instead of the FN Herstal gun pod.

UH-1H's - The PAF needs to at least double the amount of Huey's in inventory now equals about 120. When funding allows start upgraded all to Bell's Huey II standard, but for now concentrate on buying as many as possible.

C-130H Hercules - Never can have enough of these indespensable transport aircraft. Standardize on the H model for greater spares availability, more power and greater cargo lift.

Take advantage of the great relationship between the Philippines and South Korea to get their surplus Air Force 0-2A Super SkyMaster FAC aircraft free of charge. Use these a armed Forward Air Control aircraft operation in close conjunction with OV-10 Bronco's would free the OV-10's for strictly CAS work giving the ground troops more firepower.

Three immediate needs for the PAF are:

1.) SAR Helicopter - Procure a single type of medium lift, all-weather, night capable SAR helicopter. Minimum twelve for best coverage. A good choice already in service for VIP's is the Bell 412 would be excellent for the SAR role properly equipped with skid-mounted inflatable pontoons, 600-Lb rescue hoist, GPS navigation system, color weather radar and NVG's.

2.) Primary Helicopter Trainer - Used civilian Bell 206B-3 JetRangers or new Robinson R-44 Ravens.

3.) Light STOL capable Transport - Poland's PZL M-28 SkyTruck is in worldwide service including the U.S. Armed Forces the latter uses this aircraft for Special Forces Support. It has a 4,500-Lb cargo capacity, a rear loading ramp, is super cheap to fly/maintain and has a good rough Short Take Off Landing role.

BTW, I believe the PAF will never again operate MRF's.

Well, it's not really limited funding, the thing is our country (well, the government..) is so corrupt that whatever resources we have is just pocketed by some (hopefully not MOST) government officials and even some of the top brass of the AFP. But anyway, if it could be helped, I wouldn't want to see more hand me downs in the PAF. I would also like to see some maritime patrol aircraft in our inventory. The jets can wait I guess.:rolling

 

[HKP]

How about the Mig-29/Mig-35? I bet they're a bit cheaper and they're quite capable multirole combat aircraft.

there are many affordable to chose even slightly used ones like the SU27, SU31, J10, but the problem is the AFP brass have a tunnel vision, they just rely mostly from junked US logistics. Vietnam for example just bought dozens or few hundred slightly used T72 and T90 tanks from Belarus. They also ordered some frigrates from Russia. But buying from Russia or Russian and Chinese made weapons systems or aircrafts and ships is a sin in the AFP high command. They are just so narrow minded and corrupt. The Philippines can also develop its own local defense industry and create jobs but they also look down on this saying its more expensive than just buying imported ones. and thats shortsightedness and no long term solution. It maybe expensive to develop local industries but it create jobs, and they pay taxes and the long term is the country will be more self sufficient and self reliance.

 

[T.C.P]

How about the Mig-29/Mig-35? I bet they're a bit cheaper and they're quite capable multirole combat aircraft.

The mig-35 isn't available to international customers yet. Though I agree, Mig-29SMTs/Mig-29Ms would be perfect for the PAF. I don't know what the Phillipines air force has against Russian air craft, but Su-27SKM and fulcrums could serve Phillipines well as air superiority and Multi role fighters.

 

[jaeger_28]

there are many affordable to chose even slightly used ones like the SU27, SU31, J10, but the problem is the AFP brass have a tunnel vision, they just rely mostly from junked US logistics. Vietnam for example just bought dozens or few hundred slightly used T72 and T90 tanks from Belarus. They also ordered some frigrates from Russia. But buying from Russia or Russian and Chinese made weapons systems or aircrafts and ships is a sin in the AFP high command. They are just so narrow minded and corrupt. The Philippines can also develop its own local defense industry and create jobs but they also look down on this saying its more expensive than just buying imported ones. and thats shortsightedness and no long term solution. It maybe expensive to develop local industries but it create jobs, and they pay taxes and the long term is the country will be more self sufficient and self reliance.

Amen to that!! There are cheaper (in the long run) and more viable options available in the international market. Though I guess it's not surprising because our government's corruption has reached unprecedented heights that they are willing to sacrifice the welfare of our armed forces just to stuff their pockets with money. It's a shame really, since I believe we have some of the best soldiers, sailors, marines and pilots in Asia, if not in the world. And I do believe that we have the brain trust to develop self sufficiency in terms of defense, maybe not in the league of the swedes, but we do have the potential. What you have said is very true, in the long run it will greatly benefit Filipinos.

The mig-35 isn't available to international customers yet. Though I agree, Mig-29SMTs/Mig-29Ms would be perfect for the PAF. I don't know what the Phillipines air force has against Russian air craft, but Su-27SKM and fulcrums could serve Phillipines well as air superiority and Multi role fighters.

Yup, and I would love to see MIgs or Sukhois in PAF markings flying in our skies. BUt I guess that won't sit well with the US right?

 

[T.C.P]

Yup, and I would love to see MIgs or Sukhois in PAF markings flying in our skies. BUt I guess that won't sit well with the US right?

You are right. But this is a multi polar world. a smart and independent country should know how to balance their relations between world powers and should have the right to procure weaponry from any country that provides her with the best deal.

There is alot of talk about corruption in the Phillipine govt here. Guys just wanna sya this if you want to know what corruption really is check out my country

 

[STURM]

Though I agree, Mig-29SMTs/Mig-29Ms would be perfect for the PAF. .

I'm sure Mig-29SMTs/Mig-29Ms would be perfect for the PAF but wouldn't F-16s also do the job ?

I don't know what the Phillipines air force has against Russian air craft, but Su-27SKM and fulcrums could serve Phillipines well as air superiority and Multi role fighters.

The main advantage of buying planes like the Flanker and Fulcrum over Western types is the cheaper price tag, unless of course the end user decides to integrate non-standard or non-Russian main avionics, as Malaysia did with it's MKM's, then the price will spiral. In the long run, the operating costs of the Flanker and Fulcrum may also turn out to be higher than it's western equivalants due to the shorter TBO's and MTBF's of the engines, radar and other key components.

Perhaps the Philippinos here could help out, I'm curious as to what types of ground based surveillance radars are operated by the PAF?

 

[T.C.P]

I'm sure Mig-29SMTs/Mig-29Ms would be perfect for the PAF but wouldn't F-16s also do the job ?



The main advantage of buying planes like the Flanker and Fulcrum over Western types is the cheaper price tag, unless of course the end user decides to integrate non-standard or non-Russian main avionics, as Malaysia did with it's MKM's, then the price will spiral. In the long run, the operating costs of the Flanker and Fulcrum may also turn out to be higher than it's western equivalants due to the shorter TBO's and MTBF's of the engines, radar and other key components.

I don't see why the PAF would want to integrate western avionics into the Mig-29SMt/su-27SKM. These new production models are great the way they are, and I don;t know if Philippines can afford to do that.

True a F-16 could do the job, but you are talking about single engine versus double engine ( although I don't think this will make much of a difference in Philippines case). The price tag as you mentioned is a factor. Plus American hardware comes with so much strings involved, I personally think that this is a huge factor. I believe that if a country pays for a weapon system then it can do whatever the hell it wants to with it, the seller should have no role or say in its usage.

We have been operating mig-29s for some time now and are very satisfied with it, we plan to upgrade it to Mig-29SMT soon, will probably start this year.

I am not much of an expert on US air craft so I don't know what kind of deal Philippines will get on upgraded ex US air force F-16s. Or Falcons from storage.
Wouldn't it be better to get Falcons from a non US operator( they will have more life left).?

 

[STURM]

I don't see why the PAF would want to integrate western avionics into the Mig-29SMt/su-27SKM. These new production models are great the way they are, and I don;t know if Philippines can afford to do that.

Well I suppose you're right, assuming the PAF did get a Russian aircraft, the only changes required would be a different IFF, TACAN and perhaps U.S. radios.

Plus American hardware comes with so much strings involved, I personally think that this is a huge factor. I believe that if a country pays for a weapon system then it can do whatever the hell it wants to with it, the seller should have no role or say in its usage.

Yes but the Philippines is a non-NATO U.S. ally, like Thailand, so we can assume that there won't be much retrictions with the weaponary, data link, radar, etc. Granted, the F-16 is a single engine aircraft, but from a mantainance, logistics, commonality viewpoint, operating it does have major advantages for the PAF. BTW, this has been discussed at great lenght in the PAF thread The Kfir has also in the past beem mentioned as being very suitable for the PAF.

 

[jaeger_28]

You are right. But this is a multi polar world. a smart and independent country should know how to balance their relations between world powers and should have the right to procure weaponry from any country that provides her with the best deal.

There is alot of talk about corruption in the Phillipine govt here. Guys just wanna sya this if you want to know what corruption really is check out my country

Yep, but i doubt that our country could be anything like that (smart and independent), hehe!! Well, hope for the best.

Well I suppose you're right, assuming the PAF did get a Russian aircraft, the only changes required would be a different IFF, TACAN and perhaps U.S. radios.

Yes but the Philippines is a non-NATO U.S. ally, like Thailand, so we can assume that there won't be much retrictions with the weaponary, data link, radar, etc. Granted, the F-16 is a single engine aircraft, but from a mantainance, logistics, commonality viewpoint, operating it does have major advantages for the PAF. BTW, this has been discussed at great lenght in the PAF thread The Kfir has also in the past beem mentioned as being very suitable for the PAF.

The Kfir is nice, since it's combat proven by the Israelis and cheap, but in the long run would it still be a viable weapon system? I was wondering if it's better for the PAF to acquire more modern COIN aircraft instead, since COIN is a more serious issue in our country rather air defense.

 

[STURM]

I was wondering if it's better for the PAF to acquire more modern COIN aircraft instead, since COIN is a more serious issue in our country rather air defense.

In relation to the threat posed by groups like the MILF and the NPA, I think the PAF has sufficient numbers of COIN aircraft. Would additional COIN aircaft finally solve the insurgency problem if the peace talks break down and open hostilities erupt again? The answer it would seem, to solving the longstanding insurgency problem, would be for a combined political/economic/social approach conducted in unison by the civil authorities and the PAF.

 

[T.C.P]

If you are looking to use air craft to shut down Insurgencies I doubt you want to use jets. It would be extremely expensive to use jets for low level ground support or attack roles.

Propeller air craft like the Super Tucano would do great, the US uses them in counter drug and insurgency war fare.
If you don't like propeller air craft, then go for advance trainers like the L-39, L-159, K-8, Yak-130s, you can use them to train your pilots for more advance fighter jets and use them for ground support roles. It will be like killing two birds with one stone.

We use L-39s for low level ground support roles as well as for advance training, the Myanmarese air force uses K-8s the same way.

But really air craft like the Super Tucano are your best answers for low level ground attack roles.

 

[STURM]

If you are looking to use air craft to shut down Insurgencies I doubt you want to use jets.

It would be extremely expensive to use jets for low level ground support or attack roles.

I would think it very much depends on what kind of weaponary the insurgents//enemy are armed with. It would be a bit tricky operating a Tucano or a PC-7 against insurgents armed with SAM's and large calibre guns.

 

[T.C.P]

I would think it very much depends on what kind of weaponary the insurgents//enemy are armed with. It would be a bit tricky operating a Tucano or a PC-7 against insurgents armed with SAM's and large calibre guns.

Are the Philipino Insurgents armed with MANPADS?

 

[STURM]

Are the Philipino Insurgents armed with MANPADS?

Libya years ago reportedly included a handful of SA-7's in arms shipments to the MILF. If any are still being stored the batteries would probably have run out. I think the fact that there has been no reported use of MANPADS against PAF aircraft over the years would indicate that the MILF has no MANPADS that are still operable. I'm sure the Philippinos here would have more info.

 

[ed famie]

Yup, and I would love to see MIgs or Sukhois in PAF markings flying in our skies. BUt I guess that won't sit well with the US right?

Yes it well not sit well with the US, because if we buy fighter aircraft from Russia, we would begin not to rely on hand-me downs from the US and they don't want that to happen, i think it's time that the government must purchase defense equipment and not rely on donation to protect our own territory specially in Spratly island

 

[T.C.P]

Libya years ago reportedly included a handful of SA-7's in arms shipments to the MILF. If any are still being stored the batteries would probably have run out. I think the fact that there has been no reported use of MANPADS against PAF aircraft over the years would indicate that the MILF has no MANPADS that are still operable. I'm sure the Philippinos here would have more info.

If they posses no such anti air craft weapons wouldn't it be more logical to operate air craft like the PC-9 and Super Tucano for ground attack roles.

 

[STURM]

If they posses no such anti air craft weapons wouldn't it be more logical to operate air craft like the PC-9 and Super Tucano for ground attack roles.

I think it would. If your opponents were drug lords with nothing more than 7.62mm rifles aircraft like the Tucano would be an ideal, cost effective solution. Then again, if you were facing rebels with 12.7mm/14.5.mm guns and MANPADS, I would rather be in something like the A-10 or the Frogfoot. Prop aircraft and jets each offer their own advantages, but at the end of the day it all depends on the end user's operational requirements, threat level and how much funds you have to spend.