Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates

STURM

Well-Known Member
Don't follow the mistakes of TNI AU.
Not to mention the mistake of equipping the RMAF with several different types of aircraft, caused by meddling politicans :p:. Whats happens next with regards to the RMAF is anyones's guess. According to Marhalim Abbas in his malaysiandefence blog, the Europeans are putting forward an attractive proposal for the Eurofighter. The RMAF's preference I believe is still the Super Hornet.

My guess is that the PAF will eventually end up with a small batch of F 16s in the near future. I just cant think of a more practical or cost effective alternative.
 
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AVBsupersonic

New Member
Not to mention the mistake of equipping the RMAF with several different types of aircraft, caused by meddling politicans :p:. Whats happens next with regards to the RMAF is anyones's guess. According to Marhalim Abbas in his malaysiandefence blog, the Europeans are putting forward an attractive proposal for the Eurofighter. The RMAF's preference I believe is still the Super Hornet.

My guess is that the PAF will eventually end up with a small batch of F 16s in the near future. I just cant think of a more practical or cost effective alternative.


Sir can I suggest the M346 for the PAF!:smilie

M-346 Master Advanced Fighter Trainer - Air Force Technology
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Why? For training purposes? PAF is struggling to get a proper air combat capability in place, due to a lack of funding. I'd suggest there might be cheaper options available to acquire a new fast jet trainer/light strike aircraft capability...

That additional funding tied up in the more expensive M-346, might be more profitably employed in other projects, such as helicopter gunships or additional helicopter based, troop transport capability, boosting overall capability...
 

AVBsupersonic

New Member
Why? For training purposes? PAF is struggling to get a proper air combat capability in place, due to a lack of funding. I'd suggest there might be cheaper options available to acquire a new fast jet trainer/light strike aircraft capability...

That additional funding tied up in the more expensive M-346, might be more profitably employed in other projects, such as helicopter gunships or additional helicopter based, troop transport capability, boosting overall capability...


Sir, I think you know the answer to your Qs very well having 5000+ posts.... But not everything....
Sometimes you think you know it all but actually just stuborn to know or accept the facts that the solution are just infront of you!

Clearly there is no point to compare an MRF or LCA to any helicopter that were planning to acquire both of them has their own capabilities and roles in the field.

If we don't change the way we are handling things now with regards to priorities on expenditures, budget, alotment, High,medium,low priorities with regards to the countries security, AFP Modernizations and all, 20 yrs from now will still be in the same situation as where we are now in all aspects.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Sir, I think you know the answer to your Qs very well having 5000+ posts.... But not everything....
Sometimes you think you know it all but actually just stuborn to know or accept the facts that the solution are just infront of you!

Clearly there is no point to compare an MRF or LCA to any helicopter that were planning to acquire both of them has their own capabilities and roles in the field.

If we don't change the way we are handling things now with regards to priorities on expenditures, budget, alotment, High,medium,low priorities with regards to the countries security, AFP Modernizations and all, 20 yrs from now will still be in the same situation as where we are now in all aspects.
I think you sort of missed Aussie Digger's point. He's not comparing jets to helicopters, he's saying that the M-346 is an expensive aircraft for the capability is provides, and so it might not be the best choice for an air force on a limited budget. Thus, a cheaper jet that provides a similar capability may be a better choice, as this enables the air force to free up money for other requirements such as troop transports etc.

This potentially means you can get both capabilities (fast jet and airlift, for example) into service sooner, providing an overall advantage in capability compared to an air force that focused on an expensive solution for one capability and so had to delay purchases of others. So you see, Aussie Digger wasn't making comparisons - he was talking about ways to maximise capability return on a limited budget. Personally I don't know enough about the PAF's budget to comment on specifics, but I agree with his logic.

I guess one thing that might make the M-346 attractive is that it has provision for a radar and/or FLIR, which would allow significant capability to be added to the aircraft as money becomes available. However as per Aussie Digger's point, upgrade paths aren't much use if you can't afford them, and considering the M-346 is a twin-engine design that's only six years old, I expect it would be one of the more expensive jet trainers on the market.

At the end of the day, it's about the air force's requirement. I'm sure the M-346 is an impressive machine, and compared to a cheaper aircraft it might have the advantage in performance or features - but that doesn't mean those features are necessary or even relevant to meeting the requirement. If a cheaper aircraft can meet the requirement, why pay additional money for features you don't require?
 

AVBsupersonic

New Member
Thanks for the comment Sir Bonza, just want to make my point as well and no disrespect to anybody, but it's clear on what Mr.AD said that MRF is not the priority of the Government and AFP considering we have nothing at all since 2005 and up to now which is the biggest mistake for any country like ours......

" Typically what you don't have that's the one you should acquire first right? same thing as before you run out of things, you have to look after before it happens, right?! " that's why I mentioned priorities, expenditures, budget, allotment, etc.

You see if we try to dedicate and fix all these things, we can achieve all of these without worries...
Do you really believe that the Philippines is a poor country??? I don't think so!!! even other countries doesn't think so...... where can you find a country like ours that doesn't have a credible Air FORCE??? Nothing to secure our Air space......

One of the reasons why the USA is a superpower and is on top of the game is because of it's advanced technology in air superiority force in vast numbers, it plays a big role in any battle field then and now. It is the quickest/ fastest effective weapon to secure, protect, deter before any kind of threat happens..... A strong Military = A strong and stable better economy.

- Make sure your Basic defences are all intact and in order first, before jumping to another program like the AFP M CUP, so that if any problem arises you have a credible force to handle everything.

- same principle why the failed Hostage drama 3 weeks ago happened due to lack or NO proper equipments and training...... WRONG PRIORITIES!!!!

- same as they should have build up the AFP first before kicking the US Bases...

- same as they should have proper replacements first, before they decommissioned the F5s...

All of these problems we have now are 2 decades old!!! and where just going on circles......
So do you think they are on the right track when things that they are doing are still the same.

The M346 is one of the best possible options for us to consider because it can train our pilots and get them ready for the future at the same time using them for security, it will be effective because of it's advanced capabilities that can be configured to LCA and will be using it for a long time, than acquiring interim MRF's which are more expensive in all aspects and with less flight hours life left in them and are due to be retired..... tell me if that's a different and better strategy? We don't want to repeat the same mistake again do we????
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Sir, I think you know the answer to your Qs very well having 5000+ posts.... But not everything....
Sometimes you think you know it all but actually just stuborn to know or accept the facts that the solution are just infront of you!
You are welcome to your opinion. I base mine on what I have read from interviews with the Philippines armed forces. I find such topics interesting, especially given the assistance the Australian Defence Force has provided to the Philippines in recent years, to help with your overall defence force modernisation.

Clearly there is no point to compare an MRF or LCA to any helicopter that were planning to acquire both of them has their own capabilities and roles in the field.
Nor did I. I suggested that the expenditure on an M346 would significantly deplete the relatively limited budget the Philippines military is provided with. It is very much a top end training aircraft, designed to prepare prospective fighter pilots for the tasks required to operate high tech fighter aircraft. It is certainly far more expensive and complex than the Philippines is likely to be able to afford and most unnecessary IMHO.

As unfortunate as you may find it, Philippines is unable to afford to operate even a moderate fast jet capability. It has F-5's that could do so, but cannot afford even to run these. This is no slight, many nations have decided they can no longer afford jet fighters, so why you'd suggest a trainer for such an aircraft, without the ability to operate an actual fighter is a bit hard to understand. The M346 cannot fulfill the role of an air defence fighter. It is simply not designed to do so. The weapons it can carry could be used for operational roles, but aren't primarily intended to do so. They are intended for training pilots to employ weapons from operational fighter aircraft.

If you wish to prepare for the possible introduction in the future of a jet fighter capability, whilst also maintaining a light combat capability, I'd suggest a turboprop aircraft such as a Super Tucano, Pilatus PC-9/21 , T-6 Texan II or other similar aircraft.

These aircraft are much cheaper to acquire and operate than jet trainers, yet in the newer models (such as PC-21) offer near jet performance, whilst offering excellent training capability and have inherent light strike capability, with machine guns, cannon, rockets and bombs.

They can also be used as an adjunct to maritime patrol capability, which is also a strong priority for the Philippines, if appropriately equipped. The Super Tucano for instance comes mounted with a Star Safire II FLIR system, which is perfect for maritime surveillance operations.

Furthermore the priorities of the Philippines military as I have seen described, show that defeating the very real internal security threats the Philippines faces, is the greatest priority the military has and investing in a top end jet trainer is hardly going to address this priority in any meaningful way.

Yes, the M346 may some day be developed into a light combat aircraft. But this is not going to add significantly to the AFP's ability to jointly contribute to these operational taskings, nor is it going to contribute significantly to the development of an air combat capability within the Philippines, unless an actual fighter capability is acquired at some point.

In a time of limited funding, a training capability and an operational light strike capability, designed to address internal threats would seem the most logical option, with the left over funding used on other capability gaps that are ALSO identified as priorities by the Philippines military. Helicopters and maritime patrol capabilities ARE the capability priorities that I have seen.

If we don't change the way we are handling things now with regards to priorities on expenditures, budget, alotment, High,medium,low priorities with regards to the countries security, AFP Modernizations and all, 20 yrs from now will still be in the same situation as where we are now in all aspects.
Air power is an expensive business. M346 are expensive training aircraft designed to train pilots for fast jet air combat aircraft. They do not address the Philippines capability requirements as expressed publicly, nor do they provide the most economical way to achieve a fast jet training capability.

You would do well to note that the only orders for this aircraft so far, are by Countries that operate VERY high end fighter capabilities, namely Italy, Singapore and the UAE. This is not a coincidence...
 

AVBsupersonic

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
As unfortunate as you may find it, Philippines is unable to afford to operate even a moderate fast jet capability. It has F-5's that could do so, but cannot afford even to run these. This is no slight, many nations have decided they can no longer afford jet fighters, so why you'd suggest a trainer for such an aircraft, without the ability to operate an actual fighter is a bit hard to understand. The M346 cannot fulfill the role of an air defence fighter. It is simply not designed to do so. The weapons it can carry could be used for operational roles, but aren't primarily intended to do so. They are intended for training pilots to employ weapons from operational fighter aircraft.

If you wish to prepare for the possible introduction in the future of a jet fighter capability, whilst also maintaining a light combat capability, I'd suggest a turboprop aircraft such as a Super Tucano, Pilatus PC-9/21 , T-6 Texan II or other similar aircraft.

These aircraft are much cheaper to acquire and operate than jet trainers, yet in the newer models (such as PC-21) offer near jet performance, whilst offering excellent training capability and have inherent light strike capability, with machine guns, cannon, rockets and bombs.

They can also be used as an adjunct to maritime patrol capability, which is also a strong priority for the Philippines, if appropriately equipped. The Super Tucano for instance comes mounted with a Star Safire II FLIR system, which is perfect for maritime surveillance operations.

Sir Aussie,

I'm also sorry to say that they had all their chances in the past to make a difference and to prove to our people their main goal and priorities, so I don't think they have the credibility any more with regards to their plans, unless a big change happens......

How can you expect the people or tax payers, overseas Filipinos who's contributing big to our economy, for us to believe that their doing what is right when everything is just going on circles??......

The problems the PAF had with the F5's are simply lack of PRIORITY and IRRESPONSIBLE DECISIONS of the Government!

" Typically what you don't have that's the one you should acquire first right? same thing as before you run out of things, you have to look after before it happens, right?! " that's why I mentioned priorities, expenditures, budget, allotment, etc.

In the first place it's not that we don't have the budget for that, but they simply didn't put out one enough even to maintain it! Again Priorities!.....

Our GDP is a $ 300.1 Billion USD (2007) if compared to like ISRAEL that only has $ 185.8 Billion USD and yet they can afford and maintain at least (400+) fighter jets consisting of F15'S, F16's, F35's coming soon and a very well equipped and advanced Military, doesn't that make you think why we can't even afford it???? not even a quarter of their Military......
http://www.globalfirepower.com/purchasing-power-parity.asp

For me the real INTERNAL SECURITY THREATS, these are some of the people in the Government and AFP that's preventing or delaying these possible changes to happen because of their own personal interests, wrong priorities and decisions.

In order for us to have a credible and effective AFP we should fix first and make sure our PAF, PA, PN, are all intact and in full working order and has the capability to do it's duty / job for the country without any field lacking it's basic needs......

One good example is our Air Force without a FORCE!..... and yet we went through with the AFP Modernization CUP with a broken " Feather "??? can you see the point? It's a sign of being IRRESPONSIBLE! how do you expect / trust them to go through with the rest of the process?

About the M346 you know very well that it can fulfil the role as Interim air defence/ interceptor something that we don't have since 2005.... thanks to the clever people who allowed this to happen.

It may be more expensive than a Super Tucano, or any other turboprop aircraft but clearly not to be compared to be in the same class as the M346 that has more capabilities and upgrades to play a role as our INTERIM LCA and advance trainer
Instead of getting Tucanos and then after that, Interim Old Fast Jets that will only use for a short term period and still we have to buy trainers definitely for 4.5 to 5th Gen Fighter Jets.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/5/6/7/0863765.jpg

So it's a slow, long and waste of time and money in that process........

My suggestion is to acquire some (8-12) M-346 (w/ option to buy more) to start with and then after (2-4) years try to acquire (4)- Modern Gripen's or S. Hornet MRF's per year, I think this is one option to go forward and prepare for the future ahead.

So by 2015 to 2016 PAF will have;
(12 or more)- M-346 LCA
(8+ )- JAS 39 Gripens or Super Hornets

-In this way will have time to sort out problems we had before to prevent them from happening again. Our pilots, engineers and personnel will have the chance to monitor and concentrate on the aircrafts especially with regards to maintenance.

-Less maintenance in a way because will be getting new ones that doesn't have old problems compared to getting "hand overs, secondhand, refurbed, bulok " MRF's that cost more in all aspects with less life in them for us to use considering also " Aermacchi " is not a new thing for them to get use to because we are present customers.

-Our PAF pilots, engineers and personnels will have time to concentrate, train, organized well in everything they'll need before and after the acquisitions of Modern MRF's compared to having old ones that have old issues that needs to be doubled looked after....

- This is a new Pace and feasible plans that has never been done in the past that we should consider, if we really want to change and go to the right direction in the future.;)
 
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A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Sir Aussie,

I'm also sorry to say that they had all their chances in the past to make a difference and to prove to our people their main goal and priorities, so I don't think they have the credibility any more with regards to their plans, unless a big change happens......
I suspect they do not plan for defence capabilities based on emotion...

To inject some realism into this discussion, the Philippines has an annual defence budget of $1.42b per year. This is simply an unrealistic amount with which to operate a modern fighter capability in addition to all the other defence capabilities the Philippines requires.

As an example how insufficient this is, New Zealand spends $1.7b per year on her military and cannot afford it, despite having a far small military force to fund, than that which the Philippines is obliged to maintain due to operational requirements.

How can you expect the people or tax payers, overseas Filipinos who's contributing big to our economy, for us to believe that their doing what is right when everything is just going on circles??......

The problems the PAF had with the F5's are simply lack of PRIORITY and IRRESPONSIBLE DECISIONS of the Government!
1. F-5's are an aging fighter jet with limited capabilities in the modern environment. Because of their age they are increasingly difficult and expensive to operate and they provide an ever decreasing return on the investment with their obsolesence increasing as the years go by. They are a 50 year old fighter design, afterall...

2. Is it irresponsible of the Government to withdraw funding that is maintaining an obsolete capability and investing it in capability which your military desperately requires for current operations? I haven't seen the Philippines suffer greatly because they are unable to conduct modern air combat operations in recent years, but they certainly HAVE suffered because of inadequate maritime patrol and interception capabilities, insufficient land warfare and maneuver capability and insufficient night fighting and other tactical capabilities.

The sad reality is that EVERY military suffers from funding and resource shortages for what some see as "essential" capabilities. You obviously don't care much for the idea, but Philippines military doesn't have the funding to meet it's current requirements. Trying to acquire one of the most expensive lead in fighter training jets available, isn't going to do much to help that budget...

" Typically what you don't have that's the one you should acquire first right? same thing as before you run out of things, you have to look after before it happens, right?! " that's why I mentioned priorities, expenditures, budget, allotment, etc.
No, that is a simplistic way of looking at things. A defence force has to judge it's priorities by weighing up many competing requirements and assessing the available resources to try and meet those requirements.

You see the problem of having only a limited military control of your airspace as your most pressing issue, despite an active insurgency in your own country and porous maritime borders you cannot adequately control.

I see a military control of your airspace as far LESS of a problem, mostly because there is no current operational tasking for your air force that it's current resources cannot manage, ie: you are not involved in a shooting war with a Country that has a strong air combat capability, nor are you likely to be any time soon.

However your tactical land and maritime patrol capabilities most definitely fall short of the capability the Philippines requires AND both are actively engaged in operational taskings...

Now, it would be lovely if in one fell swoop your Government authorised a massive budget increase and authorised the acquisition of capabilities designed to address all of the Philippines defence requirements, but this seems pretty unlikely.

So like every other nation on Earth, you require a plan to develop your forces within the realistic resources constraints that you have and will continue to have, over a period of time. I would suggest that if you were able to take emotion out of this discussion, addressing the urgent operational requirements of forces engaged on operations would be the highest priority of any force and less operationally useful capabilities would be "down the pecking order" somewhat...

In the first place it's not that we don't have the budget for that, but they simply didn't put out one enough even to maintain it! Again Priorities!.....

Our GDP is a $ 300.1 Billion USD (2007) if compared to like ISRAEL that only has $ 185.8 Billion USD and yet they can afford and maintain at least (400+) fighter jets consisting of F15'S, F16's, F35's coming soon and a very well equipped and advanced Military, doesn't that make you think why we can't even afford it???? not even a quarter of their Military......
GDP Purchasing Power Parity by Country
Well you're about $20b short for Israel and about $160b above what the Philippines GDP (official exchange rate) actually is, but that hardly matters because GDP ain't everything.

For starters, GDP is NOT what the Government has available to spend. GDP is the value of the total sum of all the goods and services produced within a country in a single year. Philippines therefore produced a total of $161b worth of goods and services in 2009, according to the CIA world fact book. (I only use official exchange rate, because for military equipment you ARE going to be purchasing from overseas).

As an example, Australia's GDP is currently beyond $1.19 Trillion per year. The Australian Government's revenue however was "only" $291 Billion in 2009. The Philippines Government revenue for 2009 was announced as $23.56b. Philippine government expenditure however was $29b, meaning your Government spent $6b it had to borrow elsewhere. This means you have a budget deficit (and a pretty massive one at that, being more than a quarter of total Government revenue per year) of $6b last year and I suspect probably as much this year, because of the global financial crisis.

So, taking into account a massive Government budget deficit of more than a quarter of your entire revenue per year, a national debt of more than twice your entire Government revenue per year (which you have to pay back at some point if you wish for these loans to continue), where do you expect your Government to find the cash to invest in a new fleet of lead in jet trainers that do virtually nothing to address the capability gaps your current military has identified through it's involvement in on-going military operations?

On top of which, these aircraft provide little to no capability to address an entirely separate requirement that you say is so important, ie: air defence for your Country?

For me the real INTERNAL SECURITY THREATS, these are some of the people in the Government and AFP that's preventing or delaying these possible changes to happen because of their own personal interests, wrong priorities and decisions.
Well, this is a defence forum. World Affairs board exists, if you wish to debate national political issues. TYhe topic of this thread is a lack of fighter capability. Let's stick to that and discuss if it's credible any time soon, shall we?

In order for us to have a credible and effective AFP we should fix first and make sure our PAF, PA, PN, are all intact and in full working order and has the capability to do it's duty / job for the country without any field lacking it's basic needs......
This seems to be my point, all along. The exception being that I don't believe the Philippines can address the issues in nearly every aspect of it's military forces at the current time, nor indeed in the near future, unless Government revenue somehow goes through the roof, or some other country, decides to provide such on the Philippines behalf.

What it MIGHT be able to do, is incrementally modernise aspects of it's defence capability over the next few years and as I've stated continually, any such modernisation, needs to address the urgent operational requirements the Philippines has. You will not find ANY actual military person who will argue that investing in jet fighters, whilst your troops are engaged in ACTUAL operations, ie: combat, without the equipment they need to do so effectively, is a wise investment if they will venture an honest opinion.

One good example is our Air Force without a FORCE!..... and yet we went through with the AFP Modernization CUP with a broken " Feather "??? can you see the point? It's a sign of being IRRESPONSIBLE! how do you expect / trust them to go through with the rest of the process?
Well I'm sure you know about the S-211's. These can be armed with the same basic armament as the M346 and can perform a basic air intercept role. This is not going to be sufficient against a modern jet fighter, say for argument sake, an SU-30 Sukhoi, but then neither does a M346 and it will still allow for some control of the air to be practiced and enforced, as well as a light strike capability.

The S-211 is a reasonably capable lead in fighter and I know that the AFP is continuing to issue contracts for maintenance, overhauls etc for this aircraft type.

As to light strike capability, well this looks like something that the Philippines might be able to afford, within the next few years...

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/7017/tope4161yk5.jpg

About the M346 you know very well that it can fulfil the role as Interim air defence/ interceptor something that we don't have since 2005.... thanks to the clever people who allowed this to happen.
And why haven't you had it since 2005? Because they can barely afford to run the fleet of S-211's that they DO have. F-5's weren't affordable and Philippines, whilst still conducting some maintenance and overhaul activities cannot afford to fly it's fleet of S-211's. So whilst the M346 could no doubt do a slightly better job than the S-211, it's unafffordable if you cannot even afford to run S-211's.

It may be more expensive than a Super Tucano, or any other turboprop aircraft but clearly not to be compared to be in the same class as the M346 that has more capabilities and upgrades to play a role as our INTERIM LCA and advance trainer.
Instead of getting Tucanos and then after that, Interim Old Fast Jets that will only use for a short term period and still we have to buy trainers definitely for 4.5 to 5th Gen Fighter Jets.

So it's a slow, long and waste of time and money in that process........
With $1.4b a year for your entire force, you will never be operating a 4th or 5th gen fighter.

My suggestion is to acquire some (8-12) M-346 (w/ option to buy more) to start with and then after (2-4) years try to acquire (4)- Modern Gripen's or S. Hornet MRF's per year, I think this is one option to go forward and prepare for the future ahead.

So by 2015 to 2016 PAF will have;
(12 or more)- M-346 LCA
(8+ )- JAS 39 Gripens or Super Hornets
Thailand's initial purchase price for 6x Gripen's and a single SAAB AEW&C aircraft, was USD$600m. That sum doesn't include operating these aircraft, year to year. On top of this price, you'd need to add approximately USD$50m per year to operate these aircraft.

Super Hornet's are more expensive to operate than Gripen's and no less expensive in initial purchase price...

Philippines cannot currently afford to operate more than S-211's within it's defence budget and even these are largely grounded for lack of spares.

Again, where is the money supposed to come from?

-Less maintenance in a way because will be getting new ones that doesn't have old problems compared to getting "hand overs, secondhand, refurbed, bulok " MRF's that cost more in all aspects with less life in them for us to use considering also " Aermacchi " is not a new thing for them to get use to because we are present customers.
I may be wrong, but last I saw, the Philippines had 2x S-211's in flyable condition. These are not a costly aircraft to support nor are they particularly hard to acquire spares for, as evidenced by Singapore's relatively large fleet of these aircraft.

I'm sorry, but if they can't do better than 2x S-211's then you are simply day-dreaming when you consider acquiring M346 and a 4th/5th gen fighter is a realistic prospect in the near future...

-Our PAF pilots, engineers and personnels will have time to concentrate, train, organized well in everything they'll need before and after the acquisitions of Modern MRF's compared to having old ones that have old issues that needs to be doubled looked after....

- This is a new Pace and feasible plans that has never been done in the past that we should consider, if we really want to change and go to the right direction in the future.;)
Newer aircraft are generally less maintenance intensive than older aircraft this is true, but they aren't always cheaper to maintain and they most certainly are NOT cheaper than aircraft you already have in your inventory.

If you can't afford to maintain these at a reasonable level then you simply cannot afford anything more substantial.
 

AVBsupersonic

New Member
I suspect they do not plan for defence capabilities based on emotion...

To inject some realism into this discussion, the Philippines has an annual defence budget of $1.42b per year. This is simply an unrealistic amount with which to operate a modern fighter capability in addition to all the other defence capabilities the Philippines requires.

As an example how insufficient this is, New Zealand spends $1.7b per year on her military and cannot afford it, despite having a far small military force to fund, than that which the Philippines is obliged to maintain due to operational requirements.



1. F-5's are an aging fighter jet with limited capabilities in the modern environment. Because of their age they are increasingly difficult and expensive to operate and they provide an ever decreasing return on the investment with their obsolesence increasing as the years go by. They are a 50 year old fighter design, afterall...

2. Is it irresponsible of the Government to withdraw funding that is maintaining an obsolete capability and investing it in capability which your military desperately requires for current operations? I haven't seen the Philippines suffer greatly because they are unable to conduct modern air combat operations in recent years, but they certainly HAVE suffered because of inadequate maritime patrol and interception capabilities, insufficient land warfare and maneuver capability and insufficient night fighting and other tactical capabilities.

The sad reality is that EVERY military suffers from funding and resource shortages for what some see as "essential" capabilities. You obviously don't care much for the idea, but Philippines military doesn't have the funding to meet it's current requirements. Trying to acquire one of the most expensive lead in fighter training jets available, isn't going to do much to help that budget...



No, that is a simplistic way of looking at things. A defence force has to judge it's priorities by weighing up many competing requirements and assessing the available resources to try and meet those requirements.

You see the problem of having only a limited military control of your airspace as your most pressing issue, despite an active insurgency in your own country and porous maritime borders you cannot adequately control.

I see a military control of your airspace as far LESS of a problem, mostly because there is no current operational tasking for your air force that it's current resources cannot manage, ie: you are not involved in a shooting war with a Country that has a strong air combat capability, nor are you likely to be any time soon.

However your tactical land and maritime patrol capabilities most definitely fall short of the capability the Philippines requires AND both are actively engaged in operational taskings...

Now, it would be lovely if in one fell swoop your Government authorised a massive budget increase and authorised the acquisition of capabilities designed to address all of the Philippines defence requirements, but this seems pretty unlikely.

So like every other nation on Earth, you require a plan to develop your forces within the realistic resources constraints that you have and will continue to have, over a period of time. I would suggest that if you were able to take emotion out of this discussion, addressing the urgent operational requirements of forces engaged on operations would be the highest priority of any force and less operationally useful capabilities would be "down the pecking order" somewhat...



Well you're about $20b short for Israel and about $160b above what the Philippines GDP (official exchange rate) actually is, but that hardly matters because GDP ain't everything.

For starters, GDP is NOT what the Government has available to spend. GDP is the value of the total sum of all the goods and services produced within a country in a single year. Philippines therefore produced a total of $161b worth of goods and services in 2009, according to the CIA world fact book. (I only use official exchange rate, because for military equipment you ARE going to be purchasing from overseas).

As an example, Australia's GDP is currently beyond $1.19 Trillion per year. The Australian Government's revenue however was "only" $291 Billion in 2009. The Philippines Government revenue for 2009 was announced as $23.56b. Philippine government expenditure however was $29b, meaning your Government spent $6b it had to borrow elsewhere. This means you have a budget deficit (and a pretty massive one at that, being more than a quarter of total Government revenue per year) of $6b last year and I suspect probably as much this year, because of the global financial crisis.

So, taking into account a massive Government budget deficit of more than a quarter of your entire revenue per year, a national debt of more than twice your entire Government revenue per year (which you have to pay back at some point if you wish for these loans to continue), where do you expect your Government to find the cash to invest in a new fleet of lead in jet trainers that do virtually nothing to address the capability gaps your current military has identified through it's involvement in on-going military operations?

On top of which, these aircraft provide little to no capability to address an entirely separate requirement that you say is so important, ie: air defence for your Country?



Well, this is a defence forum. World Affairs board exists, if you wish to debate national political issues. TYhe topic of this thread is a lack of fighter capability. Let's stick to that and discuss if it's credible any time soon, shall we?



This seems to be my point, all along. The exception being that I don't believe the Philippines can address the issues in nearly every aspect of it's military forces at the current time, nor indeed in the near future, unless Government revenue somehow goes through the roof, or some other country, decides to provide such on the Philippines behalf.

What it MIGHT be able to do, is incrementally modernise aspects of it's defence capability over the next few years and as I've stated continually, any such modernisation, needs to address the urgent operational requirements the Philippines has. You will not find ANY actual military person who will argue that investing in jet fighters, whilst your troops are engaged in ACTUAL operations, ie: combat, without the equipment they need to do so effectively, is a wise investment if they will venture an honest opinion.



Well I'm sure you know about the S-211's. These can be armed with the same basic armament as the M346 and can perform a basic air intercept role. This is not going to be sufficient against a modern jet fighter, say for argument sake, an SU-30 Sukhoi, but then neither does a M346 and it will still allow for some control of the air to be practiced and enforced, as well as a light strike capability.

The S-211 is a reasonably capable lead in fighter and I know that the AFP is continuing to issue contracts for maintenance, overhauls etc for this aircraft type.

As to light strike capability, well this looks like something that the Philippines might be able to afford, within the next few years...

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/7017/tope4161yk5.jpg



And why haven't you had it since 2005? Because they can barely afford to run the fleet of S-211's that they DO have. F-5's weren't affordable and Philippines, whilst still conducting some maintenance and overhaul activities cannot afford to fly it's fleet of S-211's. So whilst the M346 could no doubt do a slightly better job than the S-211, it's unafffordable if you cannot even afford to run S-211's.



With $1.4b a year for your entire force, you will never be operating a 4th or 5th gen fighter.



Thailand's initial purchase price for 6x Gripen's and a single SAAB AEW&C aircraft, was USD$600m. That sum doesn't include operating these aircraft, year to year. On top of this price, you'd need to add approximately USD$50m per year to operate these aircraft.

Super Hornet's are more expensive to operate than Gripen's and no less expensive in initial purchase price...

Philippines cannot currently afford to operate more than S-211's within it's defence budget and even these are largely grounded for lack of spares.

Again, where is the money supposed to come from?



I may be wrong, but last I saw, the Philippines had 2x S-211's in flyable condition. These are not a costly aircraft to support nor are they particularly hard to acquire spares for, as evidenced by Singapore's relatively large fleet of these aircraft.

I'm sorry, but if they can't do better than 2x S-211's then you are simply day-dreaming when you consider acquiring M346 and a 4th/5th gen fighter is a realistic prospect in the near future...



Newer aircraft are generally less maintenance intensive than older aircraft this is true, but they aren't always cheaper to maintain and they most certainly are NOT cheaper than aircraft you already have in your inventory.

If you can't afford to maintain these at a reasonable level then you simply cannot afford anything more substantial.



Now, it would be lovely if in one fell swoop your Government authorised a massive budget increase and authorised the acquisition of capabilities designed to address all of the Philippines defence requirements, but this seems pretty unlikely.

Sir Aussie,

Well again like I said all of these issues are more on lack of PRIORITIES in general and clearly a sign of a big mismanagement in a way on the government side and they could have prevented all these.....

Again this is not EMOTIONS but the sad truth of reality!

If we go by this kind of thinking.... like I said before, 20 years from now we will still be in the same situation " walang pagbabago" .

there are many areas within the government that can be trimmed down especially budget wise then again this is another topic.

It is sad to say that THE BRAIN OF THE COMMANDER IN CHARGE RIGHT NOW HAS ONLY LIMITED CAPABILITIES... thanks to his supporters who supported him through "EMOTIONS". not like the real Macoy........sad to say.

" A COUNTRY CAN GET AHEAD ONLY AFTER IT IS MILITARILY SECURE. " and the Philippines is one good example!
A good example to follow are our Asean neighbours....

Peace to you Sir Aussie nice discussion but like you said " We are all entitled to our own opinion" We'll just both see what will happen to our country's future and will be hoping for the best.....

Cheers AVB;)
 
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aquariusripper

New Member
around 2000-2003 we have produced our own helicopter that can be used for reconnaissance. What happened on that one? why do we need to purchase? if we have option to create our own military technology?
 

Cailet

Member
around 2000-2003 we have produced our own helicopter that can be used for reconnaissance. What happened on that one? why do we need to purchase? if we have option to create our own military technology?
If your domestic market is too small and you can't secure overseas deals then it actually works out cheaper to buy Gazelle or Kiowa or Lynx or something else that fits your needs from the big manufacturers rather than having to pay all the startup costs of tooling and facilities on a domestic programme.

About the only country in the world outside of the three titans (USA, Russia, China) that attempts with any success to rely purely on it's own means for defence is France. Without that level of tech and economic determination (and to be blunt, the sheer head-start in time they have) it makes far more sense on every level but that of nationalistic determination to buy from another nation within a bigger market.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

I tot enstrom did set up a helo manufacturing facility in Phil about 2 yrs back...could be mostly for civilian market though. The 480 series could supplement the MD helos.
 

Mercenary4Hire

New Member
Let's all face it, the Philippine Air Force will keep pushing this date back, and back. I would not at all be surprised if I read this again in 2020.

Given the limited lack of any real funding, the best the PAF can do is to upgrade their existing combat, utility, transport and training airframe assets. And to procure more of these types.

S-211's - Singapore has retired their S-211 fleet, which they originally ordered thirty. Take into account any possible losses (don't believe they lost any) and others to retain for museum displays the Philippine A.F. could probably procure at least twenty surplus ex. R.S.A.F. S-211's. These are fitted with more modern avionics and could be used for advanced jet training. The PAF's remaining 16 S-211s could be upgraded to provide a precision CAS ability with a nose mounted LD.

OV-10A/C/M Bronco's - The entire mixed Bronco fleet needs to be upgraded to M standard (Modernized) of which their are only about 4 in existence. The C models acquired from Thailand upgrade these with the remaining A models would give the PAF more capability and a more economical cost savings and most importantly increase the overall numbers in service.

MG-520D's - Buy more..... either surplus from Israel or new from USA and upgrade all with a FLIR turret, cockpit armor package, Night Vision Goggles, GPS navigation system, secure radios for ground unit commu' and a Gecal .50 mini-gun instead of the FN Herstal gun pod.

UH-1H's - The PAF needs to at least double the amount of Huey's in inventory now equals about 120. When funding allows start upgraded all to Bell's Huey II standard, but for now concentrate on buying as many as possible.

C-130H Hercules - Never can have enough of these indespensable transport aircraft. Standardize on the H model for greater spares availability, more power and greater cargo lift.

Take advantage of the great relationship between the Philippines and South Korea to get their surplus Air Force 0-2A Super SkyMaster FAC aircraft free of charge. Use these a armed Forward Air Control aircraft operation in close conjunction with OV-10 Bronco's would free the OV-10's for strictly CAS work giving the ground troops more firepower.

Three immediate needs for the PAF are:

1.) SAR Helicopter - Procure a single type of medium lift, all-weather, night capable SAR helicopter. Minimum twelve for best coverage. A good choice already in service for VIP's is the Bell 412 would be excellent for the SAR role properly equipped with skid-mounted inflatable pontoons, 600-Lb rescue hoist, GPS navigation system, color weather radar and NVG's.

2.) Primary Helicopter Trainer - Used civilian Bell 206B-3 JetRangers or new Robinson R-44 Ravens.

3.) Light STOL capable Transport - Poland's PZL M-28 SkyTruck is in worldwide service including the U.S. Armed Forces the latter uses this aircraft for Special Forces Support. It has a 4,500-Lb cargo capacity, a rear loading ramp, is super cheap to fly/maintain and has a good rough Short Take Off Landing role.

BTW, I believe the PAF will never again operate MRF's.
 

bataan march

New Member
philippines a garbage bin of asian neighbour?

thailand is disposing their non essential military assets to the PH are actually garbage!! i am saddened by the situation of our country armed forces.. were totally lagging behind compare to our SEA nation brothers.. i hope one day our leaders will take notice of our countries defense needs..:mad:
 

ManilaBoy

Banned Member
My best suggestion for the PAF at this time frame is just to upgrade the remaining S-211 jet trainer into an M-311...It would be the most economical way in my opinion for the limited funds they have, but I am sure not everyone will agree!

Thailand plans to donate additional OV-10's to the Philippines this year to help with the COIN operations in the southern part of the archipelago...:(

The Daily Tribune - Without Fear or Favor



Crashed at Clark Air Base back in 2006 due to Landing Gear Malfunction...

WELL, It's 2011 now and I still don't see any impending fighter jet delivery or aquisition related news released...Looks like another year will go by full of talks and hopes but no actions to follow! :sleepy2
 
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ID-Forever

New Member
Magandang umaga ..... Ex - Thai Broncos protected my homeland for many years and I believe they can do the same thing for your country. .... "Fighting an enemy who wears no uniform, one who hits and runs then disappears" : OV-10
 

bataan march

New Member
Magandang umaga ..... Ex - Thai Broncos protected my homeland for many years and I believe they can do the same thing for your country. .... "Fighting an enemy who wears no uniform, one who hits and runs then disappears" : OV-10
i have nothing againts your country giving my country this planes.. philippine air force use OV-10 for counter insurgency in the south and its really useful..what im just trying to say here is for our goverment to wake up and do more about our country's defense.. not just waiting for other countries to give their old planes..compare to countries in africa or bangladesh,myanmar..philippines is far more richer but this countries has a more modern military equiptment...
 

HKP

New Member
i have nothing againts your country giving my country this planes.. philippine air force use OV-10 for counter insurgency in the south and its really useful..what im just trying to say here is for our goverment to wake up and do more about our country's defense.. not just waiting for other countries to give their old planes..compare to countries in africa or bangladesh,myanmar..philippines is far more richer but this countries has a more modern military equiptment...
well said brother. The problem with the Philippine government is it is so corrupt that the AFP generals and many legislators including former President Macapagal put their priority in their pockets than modernizing the Armed Forces. As the recent news of the suicide of gen Angelo Reyes. Unless these crooks are diminished or out of office then the AFP can be modernize. The new president Aquino seem to be more honest because he belong to a very wealthy elite family and he of course does not need to enrich himself. He is now trying to control this challenging major problem of the country that has put the country on hold in development and prosperity and had grown insurgency at the same level as before.
 

ed famie

New Member
i have nothing againts your country giving my country this planes.. philippine air force use OV-10 for counter insurgency in the south and its really useful..what im just trying to say here is for our goverment to wake up and do more about our country's defense.. not just waiting for other countries to give their old planes..compare to countries in africa or bangladesh,myanmar..philippines is far more richer but this countries has a more modern military equiptment...
yes, we have nothing against other countries that donate their old plane to us, i agree with you that our air force has the oldest plane in south east and i just read that bangladesh has already plan to upgrade and buy more modern equipment for there arm forces while we are still using the oldest equipment
 
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