Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates

[weasel1962]

Re:

The Japan and Taiwan BMD patrols are not in the right engagement zones to capture a missile basket over South China Sea - they're at least 1000 miles north of where the targets would be in Luzon and Palawan. They don't need to suppress the bases continuously - a couple of good hits on the main runways would be the ultimate kill. Destruction of control towers and tank farms - good enough for a mission kill.

I don't think ACC will redeploy assets from Europe until the conflict in SWA is truly stood down or the last troops have been pulled out.

What would be ironic is Vietnam becoming a base of operations once again for PACAF. They're in the right position to receive any CENTCOM reinforcements without having to transit the likely conflict zone. It could happen depending on how much Hanoi is willing to tweak Beijing.

Again good points.

Whacking runways is a temporary solution due to rapid repair kits. Tank farms are underground/dispersed through pipes. Control towers are becoming mobile with alternate/temp control. Not easy.

Exactly because BMD control is not efficient from NE Asia or even Singapore, that's why Philippines is the ideal location to plug the gap.

There's already bases in SWA (Iraq/Kuwait/Afghanistan). Arifjan in Kuwait is already the main logistics base for the entire SWA. No need to maintain European bases.

Obtaining a Vietnam base will be a coup but it won't happen at least for the next couple of decades. Philippines is already a major non-NATO ally through the mutual defense treaty. Leveraging on existing allies is definitely much easier.

 

[STURM]

There may come a day when the Philippines can challenge China's claim of the Spratlys or Malaysia's ownership of Sabah.

There will never be a day when the Philippine's or any other claimant can challenge China's claims on the Spratley's by any means but diplomaticly. In line with diplomatic measures, we can only hope that China does not in the future decide to 're-claim' the whole of the Spratley's using it's military. If it does, Brunei, the Philippine's, Taiwan, Vietnam and Malaysia can only watch and do absolutely nothing - except cry foul and complain to the UN and ASEAN - irrespective of how many jets, submarines, frigates, etc, are bought.

From a practical force perspective - you train for your expected opponents. .

Very true but it also depends on the state of economy and other pressing requirements.
But who are the Philippine's possible opponents and what threats is it currently facing?

It is very debatable but in my opinion the Philippines should first invest in a number of other areas such as a fleet of new OPVs and patrol boats to enable the PN to better monitor national waters. Apart from the ex-RN Peacock class frigates and the ex-USN Cyclone class boat, the vast majority of the PN's ships are close to 40 years old or more! Another question is which should come first - ground based radars or jets? And given the need to monitor national waters and safeguard natural resources from foreign enroachment which is more vital - a squadron of fighters or a squadron of medium range MPA's fitted with radar?

The raptors at Guam/Hawaii/Elmendorf or even mainland US will need forward bases eventually if they're to get into the fight. So will the RAAF if they choose to join.

Yes but what if China managed to rapidly re-claim the Spratleys by force without effecting the international sea lanes in the South China Sea and without inflicting too much military damage on the other claiments? Would the U.S. and ally Australia then be willing to engage in a shooting war with China, just for the sake of the Spratleys, given that China is a major economic power and unlike Iran and Iraq is nuclear armed? And what would be the position of the EU and the UN, which China occupying a permanent seat in the Security Council?

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Very true but it also depends on the state of economy and other pressing requirements. But who are the Philippine's possible opponents and what threats is it currently facing?

Basically counter-insurgency. The presence of private armies and ampatuan massacre highlights the problem. Internal stability is not guaranteed.

It is very debatable but in my opinion the Philippines should first invest in a number of other areas such as a fleet of new OPVs and patrol boats to enable the PN to better monitor national waters. Apart from the ex-RN Peacock class frigates and the ex-USN Cyclone class boat, the vast majority of the PN's ships are close to 40 years old or more! Another question is which should come first - ground based radars or jets? And given the need to monitor national waters and safeguard natural resources from foreign enroachment which is more vital - a squadron of fighters or a squadron of medium range MPA's fitted with radar?

Agreed. Its even down to having a decent coast guard, which there isn't. Its a long way from a navy. Its even longer to an effective navy.

They couldn't afford OPVs. There was the failed OPV construction attempt. Most of the vessels are hand me downs. The navy, if it can be called that, is in a terrible state but still the priority has to fall on the army.

Yes but what if China managed to rapidly re-claim the Spratleys by force without effecting the international sea lanes in the South China Sea and without inflicting too much military damage on the other claiments? Would the U.S. and ally Australia then be willing to engage in a shooting war with China, just for the sake of the Spratleys, given that China is a major economic power and unlike Iran and Iraq is nuclear armed? And what would be the position of the EU and the UN, which China occupying a permanent seat in the Security Council?

Good questions and difficult to answer. The accession to the treaty of amity is a coup to perceived ASEAN security. Any hostile action will violate the treaty but we all know there isn't any teeth. The treaty provides a platform to bring the issue to the UN as an article 7 charter violation if theres a breach. That in itself is again a paper tiger cos that has to be dealt with by the security council under articles 40+ of the UN charter. And China has the veto.

The US therefore has no international law precedent to intervene. So in my assessment, unlikely to have any intervention. The US can create an artificial rationale over the right of passage (as Reagan did in the gulf of sirte) but I don't think the Spratleys has the same impact (neither did the Paracels).

I believe however that's its a line in the sand drawn by ASEAN. A Czech event where a breach will end the trustworthiness of China's word and reputation (as did Hitler where no one would accept his word after the Czech betrayal).

The loss of the Spratleys will not involve threaten the overall sovereignty of any country is its economic benefit to china will be tempered by the loss of trade with ASEAN. A not insignificant sum. Its loss will however signal that China is a clear and present danger.

Personally I think China is shrewd enough to know that. The accession to the treaty was a tactical move to allay SE Asian fears ie divide and conquer principle. Despite the frequent alarming noise raised, the only entity in direct line of fire is Vietnam. None of the other ASEAN countries though cautious currently views China as an immediate threat.

Short answer: No military intervention likely.

 

[Juramentado]

Folks - as I previously noted earlier in this thread - we acknowledge PN has to get *back* to a patrol force Navy - let's forget about any Greenwater/Bluewater notions. Which is why Ret. ADM Lyons' suggestion, generous as it is, is the wrong force structure to be pushing. We need more helo-capable OPVs and LSDs. These would increase both patrol and log-lift capabilities immensely. This addresses in the COIN and Maritime Security Cooperation strategy overall.

To get back on-topic - even a squadron of F-16s really would not make any sense. MRA-trainers would. We have a whole generation of pilots who have not seen the inside of a modern tactical jet; the remaining S211s don't count. Following the example of the recent Polish Sokol Utility Helo procurement, we may be looking to former East European makers for the right mix of price and capability. As much as Western equipment is appealing, we have to look at the overall budget and manufacturer solutions to come to a reasonable decision.

 

[Ananda]

To get back on-topic - even a squadron of F-16s really would not make any sense. MRA-trainers would. We have a whole generation of pilots who have not seen the inside of a modern tactical jet; the remaining S211s don't count. Following the example of the recent Polish Sokol Utility Helo procurement, we may be looking to former East European makers for the right mix of price and capability. As much as Western equipment is appealing, we have to look at the overall budget and manufacturer solutions to come to a reasonable decision.

May I Suggest Super Tucano. It's basically using Modern Cokpit (simmilar with cokpits of modern tactical jets) and it's full of western equipment and reasonably Priced 'and it can mimic subsonic jet performances well'. It's also Potent COIN fighthers which perhaps still much relevant for PAF operation. The procurement of Super Tucano by Indonesian Air Force (TNI AU) right now still bogged down due to debate between Min-Def and TNI AU on the need or priority of COIN. However on quality side, all parties agree this is a nice ground attack fighter and with good value for money.

 

[sgtgunn]

May I Suggest Super Tucano. It's basically using Modern Cokpit (simmilar with cokpits of modern tactical jets) and it's full of western equipment and reasonably Priced 'and it can mimic subsonic jet performances well'. It's also Potent COIN fighthers which perhaps still much relevant for PAF operation. The procurement of Super Tucano by Indonesian Air Force (TNI AU) right now still bogged down due to debate between Min-Def and TNI AU on the need or priority of COIN. However on quality side, all parties agree this is a nice ground attack fighter and with good value for money.

With all of the interest lately in light COIN aircraft like the Super Tucano, AT-6 Texan II, etc. maybe someone should consider resurrecting an updated version of the greatest COIN aircraft of all - the A-1H/J Skyraider. Rugged, simple, proven, excellent range and loiter time, operable from short, unimproved runways, huge payload (3600kg on 15 hard points). Update the powerplant and avionics and voila! A pipe dream I know, but it would be pretty cool to see!

If I was an insurgent lurking in the jungle, I would NOT be happy to see a couple of SPADs bearing down on me with a bajillion iron bombs, rocket, napalm canisters, gun pods, etc hanging off the wings.

Or maybe the PAF should convince the USAF to part with some of their A-10s early - good for COIN, and I'd would imagine they'd be fairly cheap to operate for a jet.

Adrian

 

[Juramentado]

With all of the interest lately in light COIN aircraft like the Super Tucano, AT-6 Texan II, etc. maybe someone should consider resurrecting an updated version of the greatest COIN aircraft of all - the A-1H/J Skyraider. Rugged, simple, proven, excellent range and loiter time, operable from short, unimproved runways, huge payload (3600kg on 15 hard points). Update the powerplant and avionics and voila! A pipe dream I know, but it would be pretty cool to see!

If I was an insurgent lurking in the jungle, I would NOT be happy to see a couple of SPADs bearing down on me with a bajillion iron bombs, rocket, napalm canisters, gun pods, etc hanging off the wings.

Or maybe the PAF should convince the USAF to part with some of their A-10s early - good for COIN, and I'd would imagine they'd be fairly cheap to operate for a jet.

Adrian

It would be cool to see an Ed Heinemann product fly again. But we need a lead-in jet trainer. We already have Cessnas for primary flight and domestically produced SF-260s for higher performance training. It would also have to be a current a/c that is produced in relatively large numbers to guard against production shutdown, operational loss, etc. No one else in the world flies the Warthog except the USAF, and no one else makes parts except Fairchild Dornier/M7 Aerospace (the Boeing bid to build wings notwithstanding) so we would be reliant too much on a single-source provider that would be beholden to it's larger and nationally affiliated customer first.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

With all of the interest lately in light COIN aircraft like the Super Tucano, AT-6 Texan II, etc. maybe someone should consider resurrecting an updated version of the greatest COIN aircraft of all - the A-1H/J Skyraider. Rugged, simple, proven, excellent range and loiter time, operable from short, unimproved runways, huge payload (3600kg on 15 hard points). Update the powerplant and avionics and voila! A pipe dream I know, but it would be pretty cool to see!

If I was an insurgent lurking in the jungle, I would NOT be happy to see a couple of SPADs bearing down on me with a bajillion iron bombs, rocket, napalm canisters, gun pods, etc hanging off the wings.

Or maybe the PAF should convince the USAF to part with some of their A-10s early - good for COIN, and I'd would imagine they'd be fairly cheap to operate for a jet.

Adrian

Maybe (upgraded) second hand OV-10s from the US are alsopossible.
Some years ago Taiwan offered their retired F5s, why is that rejected?

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

No money for maintenance. PAF has its own F-5 fleet if it wanted to keep it operational.

 

[Juramentado]

No money for maintenance. PAF has its own F-5 fleet if it wanted to keep it operational.

It wasn't a matter of maintenance. There were a dearth of F-5A and B parts to be had on the international market and the wings/fuselage had reached EOL stress cycles. The obvious move would have been to transition to F-5Es and F's as other nations upgraded their forces but then we ran out of money entirely...

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

No lack of spares and fuselage life wasn't that big an issue (33-35 yrs when flight suspended).

F-5A

with a comprehensive list of PAF F-5A/Bs...
F-5List

The PAF got a number from Jordan, Korea and Taiwan. In fact, Korea and Taiwan were willing to donate F-5Es as well. The ones from Korea were bought at $100 each! There was more than enough spares in Taiwan, Korea and even Canada (a purchase was floated but not followed through)

Even during Marcos era, no money to use F-5s for COIN missions.

Although a small number (~10 were still flyable, esp the ROKAF ones which were donated in 98 before flight was suspended in 01), too much $ required on maintenance esp after 01 crash. Hence decision taken in 05 to disband the F-5s.

Even the S-211s maintenance are an issue. Perhaps Singapore might donate its S-211s once the new trainers are in but that's entirely hypothetical.

 

[Juramentado]

No lack of spares and fuselage life wasn't that big an issue (33-35 yrs when flight suspended).

F-5A

with a comprehensive list of PAF F-5A/Bs...
F-5List

The PAF got a number from Jordan, Korea and Taiwan. In fact, Korea and Taiwan were willing to donate F-5Es as well. The ones from Korea were bought at $100 each! There was more than enough spares in Taiwan, Korea and even Canada (a purchase was floated but not followed through)

Even during Marcos era, no money to use F-5s for COIN missions.

Although a small number (~10 were still flyable, esp the ROKAF ones which were donated in 98 before flight was suspended in 01), too much $ required on maintenance esp after 01 crash. Hence decision taken in 05 to disband the F-5s.

Even the S-211s maintenance are an issue. Perhaps Singapore might donate its S-211s once the new trainers are in but that's entirely hypothetical.

Again, I'm coming from Timawa.net, which is an RP based Defense board similar to here - you'll read messages directly from the PAF maintenance troops indicating stress and corrosion on the original airframes. Parts troubles as well - a *lot* of hangar queen and cannibalization going on - sure signs that parts supply is problematic, especially on high-turnover consumables. Couple that with lack of money, and that's why the F-5s couldn't be kept on.

Ironically, the F-5 was key to maintaining the stability of post-Marcos regimes such as Cory Aquino's - whose rise to power sent Marcos into US exile. The mere threat of airpower (while they were still flying) was enough to tip the balance of power. Then there was Daniel Atienza's sacrificial flight to suppress the flight line at Cavite (Sangley NAS) during the Coup Years. But that's about it for the highlights of the operational history of the F-5 back home.

 

[Blackjack33]

better make a decision soon

better make a decision soon with the new administration.
also take off the A-10 for coin the US will never sell sell the 350+ in their inventory both active, reserve and storage. As you can see there are no foreign operator of the A10 ever.
The A10 is uniquely USAF and they will keep upgrading it until all the airframes are used up.
With the new administration in the Philippine Government hopefully they will make a decision soon. If its true the Poland is extended lines of credit, take advantage of it... they are converting to newer fighter jets and retiring or disposing of MIG 29'S is maybe something to be considered.
South Korea is retiring the F4 fleet and pretty Soon Japan will also be retiring their F4 fleet once their new aircraft comes online.

 

[STURM]

South Korea is retiring the F4 fleet and pretty Soon Japan will also be retiring their F4 fleet once their new aircraft comes online.

F4's will be too expensive to operate and will be very mantainance intensive.

 

[Blackjack33]

F4's will be too expensive to operate and will be very mantainance intensive.

you are correct but the Philippine govt could negotiate for the spares like complete engines
and other critical parts from the other airframes that will not be sold.
make a deal with the koreans for example buy 24 complete f4 with low airframe hours and the most upgraded and then acquire the other airframes as spares. Then later down the road if you want to upgrade talk with the Israelis

the other options is stick with the f16 and hope the Philippine government can make a deal to
arm 2 squadrons + 2 trainers

regardless on what happens I hope it happens soon

 

[Ananda]

From Janes's

China's Hongdu Aviation Industry Corporation (HAIC) has completed production of the first attack and supersonic trainer version of its L-15 Falcon jet trainer, the state-owned company announced on 18 August.

The aircraft is a modernised version of previous platforms and achieves additional power through the installation of two AI-222-25F afterburning turbojet engines supplied by Ukraine's Ivchenko-Progress design bureau. Previous versions of the L-15 were powered by Ukraine's ZMKB Progress DV-2 engines.

HAIC said in a statement that the first attack L-15 rolled off its production lines on 15 August after being in production for six months. The aircraft, which is currently being marketed to both domestic and export customers, is expected to undergo a series of tests before serial production commences.

The AI-222-25F engine generates 4,200 kg of thrust in afterburn, offering aircraft in the class of the L-15 speeds of up to M1.6.

This could be what PAF looking for, if they willing to considered something Chinese.

 

[Blackjack33]

Philippine Air Force admits no fighter jets until 2011

China's Hongdu Aviation Industry Corporation (HAIC) has completed production of the first attack and supersonic trainer version of its L-15 Falcon jet trainer, the state-owned company announced on 18 August.

The aircraft is a modernised version of previous platforms and achieves additional power through the installation of two AI-222-25F afterburning turbojet engines supplied by Ukraine's Ivchenko-Progress design bureau. Previous versions of the L-15 were powered by Ukraine's ZMKB Progress DV-2 engines.

HAIC said in a statement that the first attack L-15 rolled off its production lines on 15 August after being in production for six months. The aircraft, which is currently being marketed to both domestic and export customers, is expected to undergo a series of tests before serial production commences.

The AI-222-25F engine generates 4,200 kg of thrust in afterburn, offering aircraft in the class of the L-15 speeds of up to M1.6.

This could be what PAF looking for, if they willing to considered something Chinese


Several Factors will have to change before considering anything from the People liberation Army or Communists China. My bets are a lot closer to F16 which the Philippine Air Force requirements meets a MultiRole Combat Aircraft. Which will definitely improve the capabilities of the PAF. Combine that with other aircraft that are pending.

 

[STURM]

regardless on what happens I hope it happens soon

I hope something happens too

No doubt surplus Phantoms can be obtained cheaply and there are still loads of spares. The operating costs however, and the hours of mantainance for every hour flown, would make acquiring the Phantoms counter productive for the PAF. Another consideration is whether it would be practical to acquire someting as old as the Phantom, plus the problem of finding and training the back-seaters.

Given the Philippines relationship with Uncle Sam and being classed as a non-NATO U.S. ally, I think the most practical and cost effective move would be to buy American.
I doubt very much if Russian or Chinese fighters would ever be considered despite beinf cheaper to acquire...

 

[Ananda]

Several Factors will have to change before considering anything from the People liberation Army or Communists China. My bets are a lot closer to F16 which the Philippine Air Force requirements meets a MultiRole Combat Aircraft. Which will definitely improve the capabilities of the PAF. Combine that with other aircraft that are pending.

Much larger Air Force in the region like SAF and RAAF are standardising their fighter only to two one or two types (RAAF with Super Hornet & Hornet, SAF with Viper and Eagle..which I believe both also in the future try to standardise to F-35). This follow by RMAF with probably goes to Flanker and Hornet as standard in the future, and TNI AU that seems already 'sobber-up' and also going to Flankers and possibly more Vipers as standard in future (pending what development of KFX).

Limited budget Air Force should only limited their fighters to one type or two type as max. TNI AU is good example on the 'mess-up' in logistics (thus the fleet readiness in the end) as with limited budget but try to support five type of Fighters (Flankers, Vipers, Hawk mk 53, and Mk 100/200, F-5 Tigers, and Bronco). Resulting with a phenomenal logistics mess-up.

If PAF finally can be provided enough budgets to support Jet Fighters then if this's Vipers is good thing and should only stick with it. Forget other type's, one type but with reasonable logistics support is the best thing for PAF. Don't follow the mistakes of TNI AU.

 

[OPSSG]

China's Hongdu Aviation Industry Corporation (HAIC) has completed production of the first attack and supersonic trainer version of its L-15 Falcon jet trainer, the state-owned company announced on 18 August...

...This could be what PAF looking for, if they willing to considered something Chinese

People's Republic of China (PRC) and Hong Kong SAR relations with Philippines are at a low point at this time because of the political fallout from a Philippine hostage rescue fiasco on 23 August 2010. In this incident in Manila, 9 Hong Kong tourists (8 were killed initially and another died later from injuries) in a bus were killed by a 55-year-old ex-police captain Rolando Mendoza. Mendoza was armed with a police issued M-16 assault rifle, stopped the bus, which initially had 25 people on board. For more details, see the CNN report, 'Philippines police: Authorities botched hostage rescue' and Stratfor analysis, 'A Botched Hostage Rescue in the Philippines'.

So I don't think that the PAF will plan to buy any PRC made aircraft this year or the next. Nor would it be likely that PRC will sell equipment to the PAF at this time, given that President Benigno “Noynoy” Aquino III's administration, the Philippine Police (see BBC's list of the 10 things the police got wrong) and the local authorities have badly mishandled the situation. This mishandling has occurred not only from the start but continues, as an itinerary of indignities is inflicted on the current administration of the Hong Kong SAR and the deceased.

Off topic: The Hong Kong administration under Donald Tsang is quite upset with how this has been handled and has issued a warning urging its tourists to leave the Philippines or what they call a 'black travel alert' - which has been criticized by some in Hong Kong as not reflecting the level actual risk, given that there were British and Canadian nationals on the bus but no similar travel alert was issued by the other countries. Many Hong Kong newspapers printed mastheads in black out of respect for the victims, and flags in the territory flew at half-staff after the first incident.

It reported on 26 August 2010, in a separate incident, that gunmen wearing police and military uniforms flagged down a passenger bus in a remote area in Lanao del Norte and mercilessly shot two policemen and two bus employees in front of terrified passengers.

The itinerary of indignities inflicted includes but is not limited to Aquino's failure to take Donald Tsang's call during the crisis. Aquino's Mis-Communications Secretary Herminio “Sonny” Coloma in attempting to defend the Administration's mis-steps made matters worse by what he said here (Coloma just stopped short of accusing Donald Tsang of lying). Further, in another indignity officials in the Philippines allowed the media in the Philippines to open the caskets of the deceased to film before handing over the bodies (see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQwB3Okx0K0&fmt=18) and compounding the grief of the families of the deceased by mislabeling the caskets repatriated to HK. In a further bizarre twist, the grieving family of Rolando Mendoza draped the Philippine flag on casket during his funeral prompting China to condemn draping of the flag over hostage taker's casket. This led to a situation, where the Philippine authorities had to order the flag removed. Media reports are further inflaming the situation. And things are getting 'From bad to worse'.

Hong Kong based newspaper, Apple Daily created this animated reconstruction of happened inside of the bus during the shoot-out between Rolando del Rosario Mendoza and the Police SWAT team: Apple Daily Reconstruction of what happened in the bus