Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter Padman
- Start date
I'd tend to agree. Most of the equipment will be a one for one replacement as a rule. Weight will only become an issue if the navy takes makes significant modifications.
To be be honest the only significant modifications I could see happening are the addition of a 57mm, upgraded radar and adding an air weapons magazine by removing all the office space (I'm still struggling to see how they need all that office space). Anything beyond that would have to be modular: ASW, MCM, Diving, Survey.
Yeah Navy s/be able to comfortably manage the weight. There's unlikely to be any significant weapons / sensors upgrades as that would effectively suggest a change to the ships role.
Remember they were specfically built for EEZ patrol & other low-level tasks (which they will be excellent for) and therefore have commercial spec hulls & systems - they can never be effective low-level combat vessels. They'd cope with limited anti-terrorism patrols but won't (& shouldn't) be sent into truly 'hot' waters.
I couldn't agree more. Labour's maritime review revealed a lack of patrol capability within New Zealand's waters which led to building cheaper, smaller coast guard cutters. And rightly so. If New Zealand wished to build more warships useful for the Pacific they would have built more Anzac class frigates. The Anzacs reflect the minimum New Zealand requires for a useful warship. Corvettes would fit the bill as a warship, but not to be deployed throughout the Pacific as they don't have the necessary range. One hundred million or so compared to almost five hundred million per ship. You get what you pay for....
Keep in mind I am a retired US Coastie. I would classify the OPVs as medium endurance cutters, not as high endurance cutters. I have every confidence Otago and her sister Wellington will be wonderful medium endurance cutters....
Not to long ago there was a film, the Perfect Storm. I can see Otago or Wellington replacing the Famous/Bear US Coast Guard class cutter in that film.
Last edited:
Or buy something like the French Floreal class. Designed for range, endurance, & low price, & a modest weapons fit.
Actually, the Floreals weren't designed to military standards either. I will admit they have a larger gun mount, but that is about it....
HMNZS Otago Arrival
Here is the TV3 link which gives a better look at the bridge & Otago's arrival at Devonport than the TV1 effort in the link I posted yesterday.
HMNZS Otago finally arrives in New Zealand - National - Video - 3 News
Here is the TV3 link which gives a better look at the bridge & Otago's arrival at Devonport than the TV1 effort in the link I posted yesterday.
HMNZS Otago finally arrives in New Zealand - National - Video - 3 News
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
A case of the faults being identified (publically) perhaps, thus expect maybe some more to come out in the wash so to speak?
Be curious to know why the LCM bow doors can't simply be replaced v getting replacement LCM's? Other problems with the LCM structure (or stability) perhaps?
What can they be used for if the bow doors don't work? Or would they be simply be returned to the manufacturer?
At least the replacements will be up to spec this time?
Interesting eh! What next!
Be curious to know why the LCM bow doors can't simply be replaced v getting replacement LCM's? Other problems with the LCM structure (or stability) perhaps?
What can they be used for if the bow doors don't work? Or would they be simply be returned to the manufacturer?
At least the replacements will be up to spec this time?
Interesting eh! What next!
I wonder why? Could it possibly be because the government and defence forces cannot identify any threatening force within a thousand miles of New Zealand? That if there were a threatening force beyond Australia's capacity to deal with it, that Australia would invoke the Anzac treaty with the US that New Zealand opted out of?
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Not ADI/Thales LCM2000's, but they were built by the Merwede Shipyard when they built the Canterbury (i.e. before sailing to the Tenix Shipyard for the final fitout etc).
I've never seen the LCM model listed anywhere (and Google searches seem to bring up nothing), so could it be that it was something custom built (and hence the bow cracking issues because of inexperience)?
RNZN - MRV and Landing Craft
Google searches brought up some interesting articles on the Canterbury eg NZ Skipper magazine always knows to ask the interesting questions (unlike the mainstream media)!
http://skipper.co.nz/ISSUES/S60 Canterbury p14-19.pdf
http://www.rnzncomms.org/navy/documents/Canterbury article for HSB magazine .pdf
Reference for HMNZS Canterbury (L421) - Search.com)
The two PDF's above confirm again the Canterbury is also ice strenthened to class 1C (like the OPV's). But if the Canterbury is now deemed unsuitable for Southern Ocean patrol(?), will it ever head down to Antarctica for re-supply tasks?
I was under the impression the LCMs were built by another Dutch shipyard not far from Merwede, which had built the same LCMs for the Dutch navy's LPDs... If they are having problems with the door ramp of the LCMs, one would think replacing the door would fix them, not the entire LCM... There has got to be more involved,,,or BAE is being extra generous...
Hello again, Ive been away so long Id fogotten my password.
I think the main problem is the weight, they are way to heavy , the LCMs have Aluminium doors and steel hulls, if they changed to a steel door it goes over the limit.
I also seem to wonder if they ever thought of the twisting moments between the two vessels, must be a huge strain on the LCM door hinge.
Sea toby, its very polictial, I remember the nz labour govt being scared of putting guns onto our new economic patrol ships.And it wasnt because of votes, it was a personal choice they made.
And now we are in a position where the boats are too heavy with only bushmaster guns or less to deter a threat. If you know your navy hardware youll know that a decent set of guns weigh a huge amount and could never be installed onto any of nzs new ships.
This, combined with no air defence leaves nz wide open to any asian nations to take over.
Its hard to imagine, but history tells us anythings possible, and if the threat was large you couldnt guarantee australias help or the states.
I don't know why so many are so concerned about the size of the gun mount on patrol boats and patrol ships? The chances of the patrol ships ever firing their gun in anger against enemy warships is nil... Just about every frigate being built today has surface to surface missiles which outrange a five inch, 127-mm gun anyway... Placing a five inch gun on the patrol ships won't be any more effective than the 25-mm chain gun against trawlers and drug runners...
You are sadly mistaken if you have any ideas that an OPV with a 127-mm gun will deter an invasion threat...
As I recall Kuwait had several fast attack craft with 76-mm guns and surface to surface missiles which didn't deter Iraq...
I admit when I first saw the design I focused on how pathetic a 25mm main gun was, and I still think the OPV & Canterbury look anaemic with it. The Irish Military Online forum has currently got a lively debate going about how pathetic the main gun is.
But what has been forgotten is that the OPV's were specifcally designed to provide low-level patrol capability which the RNZN wasn't able to do effectively. They are a larger vessel but basically are only tasked to do what the RAN Armidale's do - don't hear anyone saying the Armidales are under-gunned! (They've had theor porblems as well).
The OPV is larger to both cope with the range of sea-states it is likely to work in and to allow it do have a longer endurance, as well as operate a chopper.
This is no doubt why Labour felt it could get better value by buying a commercial spec vessel that didn't have separate engine rooms & other full military spec gear - which would have probably added 50-75% to the cost. It is also why it has a sensor suite ideal for patrol, but not for combat.
I agree it could struggle in some counter-terrorist patrols, but the bushmaster can still send an effective (but not accurate!) warning volley out to 5km, enough to make most hostiles with small-arms think twice. At 2.5km it can pretty much accurately blow them out of the water! It's just the rear of the vessel that bugs me, not so much the main gun.
As another example take the RN River Class - possibly a little higher spec'd, but similarly armed. They allow the RN to provide a patrol capability without tying up a larger vessel. It's not about the RN being able to back the River class with a frigate - it's about the fact that the Rivers will never be used in a high-threat environment. Nor will our OPV's.
The Canterbury is by far the most under-gunned - not so much in main gun, but the lack of 360 degree coverage by 12.75 / 25mm armenent to counter FIAC which it could realistically have to contend with it it's role.
Think of the OPV as doing the work of an Armidale (which IS what they were planned & designed for) and you'll start seeing that they should prove to be good vessels for the RNZN.
It's hard not to focus on the fact that the whole project was mis-managed, but let's not focus on the gun (which I too would prefer to be say 40mm). Focus on the fact that the vessels have been highly praised for their handling and manouvreability, and are very well equipped for the role they will perform.
I never said to put 105mm guns on the opv, but the 25mm bushmaster is commonly found on a tank. i think?
I was thinking maybe 40mm front and rear.
and a few other things to provide credibility. after all this is a patrol vessel, not a fishing trawler.
Missiles are too dangerous to have laying around for years or even decades unused.
Missiles on a patrol vessel is an unfortunate suggestion.
I was thinking maybe 40mm front and rear.
and a few other things to provide credibility. after all this is a patrol vessel, not a fishing trawler.
Missiles are too dangerous to have laying around for years or even decades unused.
Missiles on a patrol vessel is an unfortunate suggestion.
Being a retired Coastie after 27 years of service, i never felt our 210 foot Reliance class medium endurance cutter was under gunned when facing trawlers and drug runners. Its plenty large enough for constable duties... The Otago's are not that much larger than a Reliance.
I agree with Toby that the Otago's with the 25mm are adequate for NZ EEZ patrols. (Even though maybe a 40mm would have been better) However, they are basically multi-agency vessels in terms of tasking. The Navy just owns and operates them.
They have never ever been considered for anything other than an assessed low threat environment from the outset. They are not the sharp end. They are not warships but constabulary and government support vessels. They will be fine in the part of the Pacific that is benign. Lucas raises some excellent points and they are of regret over many aspects of the project - but remeber the project was fiscally and ideologically strangled from the start.
Some Navies like Ireland may have 76mm on their OPV's, however they are as frontline as they will ever have in the sharp end - however we will soon have 2 upgraded Anzacs and likely to return to a 3-4 frigate fleet over the next decade or so reading the tea leaves (and noting the current governments pro-maritime policy).
Anyway it is all a moot point because they are not going to refit the OPV's with a larger gun.
They have never ever been considered for anything other than an assessed low threat environment from the outset. They are not the sharp end. They are not warships but constabulary and government support vessels. They will be fine in the part of the Pacific that is benign. Lucas raises some excellent points and they are of regret over many aspects of the project - but remeber the project was fiscally and ideologically strangled from the start.
Some Navies like Ireland may have 76mm on their OPV's, however they are as frontline as they will ever have in the sharp end - however we will soon have 2 upgraded Anzacs and likely to return to a 3-4 frigate fleet over the next decade or so reading the tea leaves (and noting the current governments pro-maritime policy).
Anyway it is all a moot point because they are not going to refit the OPV's with a larger gun.