Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[Sea Toby]

While involving Australia and not New Zealand, a number of Australian programmes are either domestic designs, or domestic production of foreign designs. This is often done even if the Australian-built kit is up to ~30% more than the same piece of foreign kit. The reason behind this is the amount of flow-through. Any monies spent in "Buy Australia," lead to more Australians employed, who in turn pay taxes and spend money on goods and services, which lead to yet more people employed, paying taxes and purchasing yet more goods and services, etc. Also, any domestic production is going to use more domestic resources (rawmats, sub-components, etc) for whatever is being worked on. And this increased demand for product from domestic sources again leads to more domestic employment and spending.

I would imagine that New Zealand is in a similar situation, though not necessarily to the same extent, being smaller both in population, resource and industrialized levels.

-Cheers

One also has to have a military industrial complex capable of building the equipment. With the Project Protector program the New Zealand shipyard was capable of building the IPVs at a competitive price, and that shipyard was capable of building ship modules for the OPVs as well. Unfortunately the shipyard capable of assembling the OPVs was in Australia. While that Australian shipyard could have built the MRV, the Dutch shipyard was able to build it quicker, and probably for less. At that time the Australian shipyard was still building the last of the Anzac frigates. If that shipyard wasn't busy at that time, they could have built the MRV too...

I don't know of a shipyard that is capable of building the IPVs as well as the OPVs and MRV at the same time in New Zealand. Sometimes there is no choice but to buy abroad...

Overall with Project Protector, it appears New Zealand built as much as they were able to in New Zealand.

 

[Gibbo]

OPV #2 accepted

RNZN - Navy capability boosted with acceptance of WELLINGTON

 

[anzac3]

just spoke today with a girl who was in nz navy as a medic, she was VERY negative about the whole navy.
It put me off a wee bit, apparently theres alot of really old guys creaming it.
I think I will apply to the australian navy for a medicial position.

 

[tongan_yam]

Opinion or Fact

@anzac3 - Just to chime in here because if you're going to base a major life decisions around one persons opinion, good luck to you. Your medic friend is entitled to their viewpoint but you really need to dig a bit deeper as to why they hold this opinion.

One person doesn't make a sample population, ask around because her opinion is not what I hear from my friends and colleagues in our Armed Services.

 

[anzac3]

thanx tongan yam for that

@anzac3 - Just to chime in here because if you're going to base a major life decisions around one persons opinion, good luck to you. Your medic friend is entitled to their viewpoint but you really need to dig a bit deeper as to why they hold this opinion.

One person doesn't make a sample population, ask around because her opinion is not what I hear from my friends and colleagues in our Armed Services.

 

[JJC]

Can anyone give me a little more info or experience on what it is like to be a seaman combat specialist?

Thanks

 

[Gibbo]

OPV Wellington on it's way...(take 3)

You've gotta wonder...:roll

Major engine issue (one assumes due to engine manufacturer employing idiots!?!) on OPV 1, so do they go & check OPV for same problem - duh, it seems not!

Anyway, look forward to seeing her at Devonport.


New navy ship resumes jouney to NZ - national | Stuff.co.nz

 

[recce.k1]

A busy time at the office for the good folks in the RNZN.

Last week an IPV assisted with a fire at sea on a tugboat (it must be an interesting procedure to be able to deploy a RHIB whilst the IPV is at a safe distance, compared to the old inshore patrol craft types which would have to boarded alongside). Also the IPV's get their first woman commander.

The second OPV arrived at Devonport meaning Project Protector is finally complete (it'll be great to see them patrolling areas not usually undertaken soon etc). Funnily enough some interesting photos of the OPV's (amongst otherthings) in this Indonesian defence blog.

And the Frigate Te Kaha sails into the US for the first time (for the RNZN) in 25 years on a defence/diplomacy visit.

Some video [nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diG9P5WArMk[/nomedia] of Te Kaha and Endeavour visiting Canada for their fleet review (You Tube link from RNZN website). No sign of the completed upgraded Phallanx being re-fitted yet (and the reporter mentions Te Kaha is going to Rimpac - eh???)!

Busy but good times!

 

[MrConservative]

A busy time at the office for the good folks in the RNZN.

Last week an IPV assisted with a fire at sea on a tugboat (it must be an interesting procedure to be able to deploy a RHIB whilst the IPV is at a safe distance, compared to the old inshore patrol craft types which would have to boarded alongside). Also the IPV's get their first woman commander.

The second OPV arrived at Devonport meaning Project Protector is finally complete (it'll be great to see them patrolling areas not usually undertaken soon etc). Funnily enough some interesting photos of the OPV's (amongst otherthings) in this Indonesian defence blog.

And the Frigate Te Kaha sails into the US for the first time (for the RNZN) in 25 years on a defence/diplomacy visit.

Some video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diG9P5WArMk of Te Kaha and Endeavour visiting Canada for their fleet review (You Tube link from RNZN website). No sign of the completed upgraded Phallanx being re-fitted yet (and the reporter mentions Te Kaha is going to Rimpac - eh???)!

Busy but good times!

Rimpac? Wow! That would be the first time in a generation wouldn't it. Around 84/85 was the last? I hope it is not just speculation on the part of the reporter.

Things are moving on quickly regarding working with the US Forces again. I see that Gen Cartwright had a quick visit down to Wellington a few days ago. I was very pleased to see that.

I'm looking forward to a USN or USCG ship visit soon in return. That would help to close off the bad old days and start a new fresh chapter.

 

[anzac3]

media

I heard awhile back regarding the OPV weight problems, and the MRV rolling about at sea, and all the other things the gutter press likes to trumpet .
My Q is why do we have to buy new gear? Im sure its been asked recently but what was wrong with a few ex rn frigates, 4 maybe, and a few patrol/minelayers. Thats what we used to do , even during the boom times of the last centry NZ rarely got brand new large ships.
Secondly, its not too late. A couple of ex RN frigates may help.
Whos bum should be kicked regarding all this?
Also from a safety viewpoint should nz be operating ships that have failed survey and cant be lightened? and operating without close in weapon systems functioning.
Thanks for listening

 

[Todjaeger]

I heard awhile back regarding the OPV weight problems, and the MRV rolling about at sea, and all the other things the gutter press likes to trumpet .
My Q is why do we have to buy new gear? Im sure its been asked recently but what was wrong with a few ex rn frigates, 4 maybe, and a few patrol/minelayers. Thats what we used to do , even during the boom times of the last centry NZ rarely got brand new large ships.
Secondly, its not too late. A couple of ex RN frigates may help.
Whos bum should be kicked regarding all this?
Also from a safety viewpoint should nz be operating ships that have failed survey and cant be lightened? and operating without close in weapon systems functioning.
Thanks for listening

Indeed the RNZN often used to purchase ex-RN vessels. While such vessels can often be purchased cheaply, they are not necessarily cost effective purchases, at least for a RNZN stand point nowadays.

What such a vessel purchase would effectively be if conducted currently, is the RNZN getting a used hull that presumably still has some service life and possibly an engine/powerplant. The shipboard electronics and sensors would likely need replacement, and many of the weapon systems as well*. The vessel might keep the main gun, or it could possibly replaced with a 5"/127mm cannon to maintain ammunition commonality with Australia since a RN presence is no longer maintained in the Pacific.

*The reason I stated that the electronics, sensors and possibly even some weapon systems would likely need replacement is that a vessel the RN was selling to another country would probably not have undergone a MLU.

Now there are a few downsides to purchasing used vessels. One for thing, they typically having shorter service lives and can require more maintenance work than new vessels. Another possible issue is that a used vessel would have been designed according to the original navy's wants/needs/doctrine, which might not be appropriate for a RNZN vessel. Given the location of NZ in the southern Pacific and South Ocean, the seas there can get rather rough. Additionally, it is a long way from anywhere, which means that vessels appropriate for the RNZN would likely have good/excellent seakeeping capabilities as well as being long-ranged. A further potential requirement for a RNZN vessel is efficient crewing, given the relatively small number of navy personnel, a vessel with a high crew requirement would likely not fit within the RNZN. Now I am not saying that every/all ex-RN vessel would encounter this sorts of issues, but by purchasing a new-build vessel, the RNZN can specify what sort of performance it requires in key areas.

-Cheers

 

[MrConservative]

I heard awhile back regarding the OPV weight problems, and the MRV rolling about at sea, and all the other things the gutter press likes to trumpet .
My Q is why do we have to buy new gear? Im sure its been asked recently but what was wrong with a few ex rn frigates, 4 maybe, and a few patrol/minelayers. Thats what we used to do , even during the boom times of the last centry NZ rarely got brand new large ships.
Secondly, its not too late. A couple of ex RN frigates may help.
Whos bum should be kicked regarding all this?
Also from a safety viewpoint should nz be operating ships that have failed survey and cant be lightened? and operating without close in weapon systems functioning.
Thanks for listening

Yes a number of ex RN ships served the RNZN. Many of them very historic ships such as the Cruisers Archilles, Leander, Gambia, Bellona, Black Prince and Royalist in the middle of the last century, six Loch class frigates served in the 1950/60's as the last couple of big Cruisers were phased out and then in the later part of the century both the Wellington and Southland were ex RN.

Back in the mid 1960's a number of our ships were ex RN or RAN, its amazing to think at that stage we had, a Cruiser, 2 new frigates, 4 ex RN light frigates, 4 corvettes, 2 minesweeper, 4 auxillary vessels and six admittedly aging small inshore patrol vessels. A 23 vessel navy. Much of it 2nd hand. Much of it though having to run on TLC though as running a Cruiser like the Royalist demanded a crew of 500+ and a fair chunk of the Navy budget to keep going. Big old ships have a tendency to do that. Especially if yourvé got eight 133mm guns and three sets of 40mm quads to keep shipshape like on the Royalist (my personal favourite RNZN ship and I have my earliest childhood memory seeing it from the Devonport ferry before she was towed off to Osaka to become a set of ginzu stay sharp steak knives.:teary)

Taking on an old Broadsword would be the same as us trying to run a Crusier in the 1960's.
A couple of Batch II Broadswords were sold to Romania about 6 or 7 years back for what works out to be roughly NZD100m a vessel. We are talking Falklands era vessels which require a crew of around 240ish to man and tens of millions to operate each year.

There are still 4 improved Batch III Broadswords in service though how for much longer? Are all of them going to be around for much longer is a good question. That said the Chatham at least should be around until early next decade when the first of the 6850t Type 26 frigates will come on line. But should we touch them if for some reason we were offered them? In my view no. Not for the OPV role.

This leaves the more compact Duke Class of which there are just 13 left after 3 were sold to Chile (who I think did pretty well getting 3 of them for about NZD$75m each including a refit about 5 years ago). I cannot see even a cash strapped British Government putting Dukes up on the block anytime soon. The Dukes are a bit lighter on the crew numbers with around 175 odd iirc. I can't see the once mighty RN shrinking to a point when it would be be not much larger than the RAN. That said if we needed to double our frigate force quickly for some reason prior to the Type 26 /or Anzac II being avaliable and the RN were in desparate need to sell a couple, then it would be worth investigating. Because bear in mind if we needed to get extra frigates there would no Anzacs being able to be tranferred from the RAN as they would be very much be needing them anyway.

Overall, I think RN ships are off the table. They the RN have got down to what one retried RA described last month as crisis mass.

 

[Gibbo]

A busy time at the office for the good folks in the RNZN.

Last week an IPV assisted with a fire at sea on a tugboat (it must be an interesting procedure to be able to deploy a RHIB whilst the IPV is at a safe distance, compared to the old inshore patrol craft types which would have to boarded alongside). Also the IPV's get their first woman commander.

The second OPV arrived at Devonport meaning Project Protector is finally complete (it'll be great to see them patrolling areas not usually undertaken soon etc). Funnily enough some interesting photos of the OPV's (amongst otherthings) in this Indonesian defence blog.

And the Frigate Te Kaha sails into the US for the first time (for the RNZN) in 25 years on a defence/diplomacy visit.

Some video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diG9P5WArMk of Te Kaha and Endeavour visiting Canada for their fleet review (You Tube link from RNZN website). No sign of the completed upgraded Phallanx being re-fitted yet (and the reporter mentions Te Kaha is going to Rimpac - eh???)!

Busy but good times!

The reference to RIMPAC is a little curious - certainly doesn't feature in the fleet schedule in Navy News, and none of the numerous press releases about the current deployment have mentioned RIMPAC.

I suspect the Canadian news item didn't have the story quite right. They may have assumed that because Te Kaha & Endeavour arrived in Canada with HMAS Newcastle (which IS off to RIMPAC) that the RNZN was heading there too. Guesss we'll soon find out. :coffee

HMAS Newcastle arrives for RIMPAC 2010 - Royal Australian Navy

Now here's one for the sleuths! Te Kaha left without her Phalanx which may be expected as the 1st upgraded Block1B unit has been completed, but not probably yet to be deployed!?! She's been without the CIWS for 2.5 years now!

Here's where it gets interesting (concerning!?!) Te Kaha is now sporting a 4th Sat Dome on the hangar top - but this one is literally hard-up against the Phalanx base / foundation (whatever you call it). To me this suggests the Phalanx isn't expected to go back on, as it's far too close to have both in place (it's literally within a metre of where the phalanx ought to be.

So I wonder what the story is here - hope like hell some 'expert' hasn't decided it's not necessary - and put a 'for-sale' notice on it!?!

 

[recce.k1]

Yeah, NZ is still banned from formal US exercises (unless a Presidential waiver is obtained) so as much as I'd like to see the RNZN at RIMPAC, I'd be suprised if it happened this year. Perhaps the RNZN has been invited to "observe" the exercise?

Good to see the upgraded HMAS Newcastle participating though - must be a good sign of confidence in its new capabilities ... would be curious to hear later how the new systems perform etc.

Edit: no mention of NZ participation.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/16407/
http://news.suite101.com/article.cfm/rimpac-2010-war-games-launch-in-hawaii-a253355
(Which is rather pathetic in this day and age IMO).

 

[CJohn]

Has anyone got any thoughts on a replacement vessel for HMNZS Endeavour, a decision from the government on this is pending and it seems there are two directions the government can take.
The simplest and cheapest of these would be a type for type replacement, a fleet tanker and the South Korean shipyards would be good option if price is the major factor.
The other option is that which we believe the Navy brass prefer, a joint support ship. It seems extra Sealift is still a priority for Navy. It is uncertain if the Navy wants strategic or tactical Sealift and there would be a big difference in cost between these two types.
There really is no easy answer for the government here, financial constraints are one thing, but a small Navy by it's nature must strive to fulfill many tasks to be a relevant force.

 

[Lucasnz]

Has anyone got any thoughts on a replacement vessel for HMNZS Endeavour, a decision from the government on this is pending and it seems there are two directions the government can take. The simplest and cheapest of these would be a type for type replacement, a fleet tanker and the South Korean shipyards would be good option if price is the major factor. The other option is that which we believe the Navy brass prefer, a joint support ship. It seems extra Sealift is still a priority for Navy. It is uncertain if the Navy wants strategic or tactical Sealift and there would be a big difference in cost between these two types.
There really is no easy answer for the government here, financial constraints are one thing, but a small Navy by it's nature must strive to fulfill many tasks to be a relevant force.

I''ll bite (seeing as I have a free moment). Endeavour has proven its worth in East Timor, The Papua New Guinea peace talks etc. It addition its reduced NZ dependence on RAN tankers. Had it not been for the RAN tankers the 1970's Anti Nuke protest would not have happened. I suspect thats one of the reasons the Lange Gov't purchased it.

The main problem with Endeavour has a very limited ability to carry stores, in terms of provisions and general stores to support the ships it operates with. On the other side of the equation is that the all of the current RNZN ships have range superior to that of the Leanders, reducing the need for dedicated tanker.

Going with tactical sealift would remove a tanker capability, given the type of operations tactical sealift involves. Given the size of the Pacific and the length of RNZN deployement I don't think losing a tanker capability is an option. As I have said before let Canturbury's capability evolve naturally, in order to determine whether tactical or strategic sealift is needed. Having said that I could never understand why NZ choose strategic over tactical. I liked the navy's hints in the late 1990's of purhcasing a Singapore designed Endurance class..

A joint logistics ship, which Merwede has a plan for based on Canterbury, would increase the extermely limited sealift we have. IMHO I think a Joint Logisitcs ship would be an overkill given the current structure of the fleet and the defence force as a whole and the need to develop Canterbury's capabilities. Naval Staff should be focusing on increasing our warfighting capability via an additional ANZAC style frigate or patrol frigates.

To that end I would purchase a modified tanker from South Korea that keeps fuel capability as is, after the double hull reductions, and increase the stores capability from three or four containers.

 

[Sea Toby]

Has anyone got any thoughts on a replacement vessel for HMNZS Endeavour, a decision from the government on this is pending and it seems there are two directions the government can take.
The simplest and cheapest of these would be a type for type replacement, a fleet tanker and the South Korean shipyards would be good option if price is the major factor.
The other option is that which we believe the Navy brass prefer, a joint support ship. It seems extra Sealift is still a priority for Navy. It is uncertain if the Navy wants strategic or tactical Sealift and there would be a big difference in cost between these two types.
There really is no easy answer for the government here, financial constraints are one thing, but a small Navy by it's nature must strive to fulfill many tasks to be a relevant force.

I'm for another South Korean replenishment ship, but slightly larger then the Endeavour with ample deck space to carry up to two dozen or more containers and a crane to lift the containers. If you have seen the image of the German designed LHD, MHD150/200 or similar to a joint sealift ship the Dutch or Canada is thinking of. I am referring to an area similar to the stacked container areas of that ship.i would think a tanker design could match that area foward or aft of the bridge...
This ship is not so much for transporting troops or have a vehicle deck, but more suitable to carrying a considerable number of containers, supplies to support an army battalion in team with the Canterbury... We can always use a bit more sealift for supplies, not necessarily troops or vehicles..Think of it as a replenishment ship/container ship, not a replenishment ship/transport roro ship. I don't think NZ needs another transport roro ship, NZ have one already, but NZ could use a tanker/container ship...

 

[Norm]

Phalanix

Now here's one for the sleuths! Te Kaha left without her Phalanx which may be expected as the 1st upgraded Block1B unit has been completed, but not probably yet to be deployed!?! She's been without the CIWS for 2.5 years now!

Here's where it gets interesting (concerning!?!) Te Kaha is now sporting a 4th Sat Dome on the hangar top - but this one is literally hard-up against the Phalanx base / foundation (whatever you call it). To me this suggests the Phalanx isn't expected to go back on, as it's far too close to have both in place (it's literally within a metre of where the phalanx ought to be.

So I wonder what the story is here - hope like hell some 'expert' hasn't decided it's not necessary - and put a 'for-sale' notice on it!?!

Gibbo I think "the countries Safe !" Extract from Stuff late Feb 2010


"The 13-year-old navy frigate HMNZS Te Kaha is back in action after a major refit which saw it get two new diesel engines.

The ship has been out of action since July last year as part of a planned maintenance and mid-life engine upgrade.

It was put back in commission earlier this month but would leave for its next deployment to South East Asia in April without its Phalanx weapons system -- a last line of defence against missiles.

The 20mm rapid-fire machine gun was sent to America for an upgrade which would give the ship protection against fast inshore attack boats and helicopters and was not due back in time to be fitted before Te Kaha left for South East Asia. The Phalanx upgrade for Te Kaha and its sister ship, HMNZS Te Mana was expected to cost up to $25 million.

Lieutenant Commander Chris Fleck, the officer in charge of the engine upgrade, said Te Kaha would be on a diplomatic and training mission in South East Asia and was not on operational duties.

Te Mana was due to begin its engine refit next month and would be out of action until October.

The new engines were part of a package which would cost about $57m for both ships. It also included internal enhancements so the ship could better cope with additional weight from new gear added over the years, an upgrade of the control and monitoring systems and an upgrade of the heating, ventilation and air conditioning systems.

The control and monitoring systems upgrade, and the heating, ventilation and air conditioning upgrades were likely to start next year or the year after.

Lt Cdr Fleck said the new engines would be more economic but would not allow the ships to go faster than their top speed of 27 knots.

The old engines could push each ship to 18 knots before a gas turbine kicked in for high-speed running.

Lt Cdr Fleck said the new engines would go to 21.5 knots before gas turbines took over, making the ships more economic to operate.

The new engines were also "environmentally compliant", he said.

Te Kaha was expected to be in commission at least until 2025 and Te Mana would last until 2028. "

As a subscriber to the NZ Herald I recall a piece not archived that the Phalanix was back at the Dockyard and the other one [sadly we only have two} had gone to the USA for the upgrade hopefully not for 2.5 years!!!

The official NZDF site supports this:

Anzac Ships Upgrade [Ministry of Defence NZ]

Cheers

 

[Gibbo]

Gibbo I think "the countries Safe !" Extract from Stuff late Feb 2010


"The 13-year-old navy frigate HMNZS Te Kaha is back in action after a major refit which saw it get two new diesel engines.

The ship has been out of action since July last year as part of a planned maintenance and mid-life engine upgrade.

It was put back in commission earlier this month but would leave for its next deployment to South East Asia in April without its Phalanx weapons system -- a last line of defence against missiles.

The 20mm rapid-fire machine gun was sent to America for an upgrade which would give the ship protection against fast inshore attack boats and helicopters and was not due back in time to be fitted before Te Kaha left for South East Asia. The Phalanx upgrade for Te Kaha and its sister ship, HMNZS Te Mana was expected to cost up to $25 million.

Lieutenant Commander Chris Fleck, the officer in charge of the engine upgrade, said Te Kaha would be on a diplomatic and training mission in South East Asia and was not on operational duties.

Te Mana was due to begin its engine refit next month and would be out of action until October.

The new engines were part of a package which would cost about $57m for both ships. It also included internal enhancements so the ship could better cope with additional weight from new gear added over the years, an upgrade of the control and monitoring systems and an upgrade of the heating, ventilation and air conditioning systems.

The control and monitoring systems upgrade, and the heating, ventilation and air conditioning upgrades were likely to start next year or the year after.

Lt Cdr Fleck said the new engines would be more economic but would not allow the ships to go faster than their top speed of 27 knots.

The old engines could push each ship to 18 knots before a gas turbine kicked in for high-speed running.

Lt Cdr Fleck said the new engines would go to 21.5 knots before gas turbines took over, making the ships more economic to operate.

The new engines were also "environmentally compliant", he said.

Te Kaha was expected to be in commission at least until 2025 and Te Mana would last until 2028. "

As a subscriber to the NZ Herald I recall a piece not archived that the Phalanix was back at the Dockyard and the other one [sadly we only have two} had gone to the USA for the upgrade hopefully not for 2.5 years!!!

The official NZDF site supports this:

Anzac Ships Upgrade [Ministry of Defence NZ]

Cheers

Cheers Norm - glad to hear the Phalanx will be back on Te Kaha soon. I still wonder about placement of that new Sat-Dome, but I guess we'll eventually see! I did notice the new dome is white whereas the other 3 are grey - perhaps even some sort of temporary / experimental installation!?!

The Phalanx was reoved from Te Kaha about a year before the unit went to the States - not sure why.

 

[RegR]

Are the Phalanx modular and interchangeble? ie can they be moved to other vessels within the fleet other than the frigates. If so Canterbury and the future tanker replacement could be fitted with the systems needed to operate when the need arised. Understood that they would not go anywhere that would require that level of protection unescorted but 2 eyes are surely better than 1and it would be rare to deploy both frigates operationally at once(that is obviuosly if we don't get the much needed 3rd).
On the tanker replacement, some good points raised as to the possible specifications, will be good to see some firm decisions made soonish as going by timeframes of late, it could be a long while before it actually berths alongside Devonport. The added sealift would be a bonus as Canterbury has been pretty busy in both military and humanitarian guises lately and it could possibly take care of the smaller deployments however I beleive financial constraints may limit the extras it will come with. If anything the extra storage/container space and helo deck should be minimum with possible limited accomodation/medical facilities so it can act as a floating replenishment base in support of ground troops ala Timor.