Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I agree with Toby that the Otago's with the 25mm are adequate for NZ EEZ patrols. (Even though maybe a 40mm would have been better) However, they are basically multi-agency vessels in terms of tasking. The Navy just owns and operates them.

They have never ever been considered for anything other than an assessed low threat environment from the outset. They are not the sharp end. They are not warships but constabulary and government support vessels. They will be fine in the part of the Pacific that is benign. Lucas raises some excellent points and they are of regret over many aspects of the project - but remeber the project was fiscally and ideologically strangled from the start.

Some Navies like Ireland may have 76mm on their OPV's, however they are as frontline as they will ever have in the sharp end - however we will soon have 2 upgraded Anzacs and likely to return to a 3-4 frigate fleet over the next decade or so reading the tea leaves (and noting the current governments pro-maritime policy).

Anyway it is all a moot point because they are not going to refit the OPV's with a larger gun.
I agree that the OPV's will not be refitted with a larger gun, and aside from perhaps switching from a 25 mm Bushmaster to a 30 - 50 mm Bushmaster, it likely could not be refitted without significant changes to the internal structure during the refit.

However, I do think the OPV should have additional weapon mounts apart from the two M2 HMG's What I think would be appropriate would be either another Typhoon/25 mm Bushmaster or Mk 15 Phalanx (with ASuW upgrade like on the RNZN Anzacs) to cover the aft arc, or a pair of mini-Typhoon mounting positioned the port/aft and starboard/aft arcs respectively. Unfortunately, having looked at the ship schematics I am at a loss as to where such mountings could be fitted, without removing the crane and two RHIB's aft.

My thinking behind the appropriateness of such an armament upgrade, is that the OPV is indeed a RNZN owned/operated patrol and enforcement vessel, and not a warship. However, lack of overall choices in terms of equipment available for ops/deployment to the RNZN and NZDF as a whole, it is possible that the OPV's could find themselves in higher-than-expected-risk situations. Not necessarily in a situation where someone would try and use the OPV as a warship, but more in a where the gaps in weapon arc vs. smallcraft could be problematical. I am thinking specifically if an OPV was deployed as part of the multi-national anti-piracy patrols off the coast of Somalia. Given that the pirates seem to prefer boarding vessels at the stern to seize them, the lack of gun coverage aft is a vulnerability.

Now, if the OPV's are only ever operated around New Zealand and possessions it should not be an issue. Given that the RNZN is currently a two frigate-only navy, I feel it is likely that at some point, either one of the OPV's or perhaps Canterbury will be deployed as a 'show of force' to a situation where the vessel would be at risk.

Incidentally I have been trying to work out what sort of capabilities and systems would been appropriate for an OCV design that would meet both RAN and RNZN needs. Once I have finished, I will post it, but so far, it is resembling a 100 m OPV/corvette that would likely displace ~2,500 tons.

-Cheers
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
I agree that the 25mm is a fairly light weapon for a ship, but it's only intended for basic self-defence and perhaps very minor show of force issues.

A mini-typhoon installation should be possible, if there are already mounts for 2x 12.7mm HMG's. The biggest component of this system is the control station, however even this ain't that large and if the OPV's don't have a spare couple of square metres and the necessary power and cabling acess on-board for such an upgrade if necessary, then whoever approved this project should be arrested...

Here is the control station:

http://www.defence.gov.au/opex/glob...llery/20060705a/20060621adf8109730_005_lo.jpg

and:

http://www.defence.gov.au/opex/glob...llery/20060705a/20060621adf8109730_020_lo.jpg

and here is the weapon system:

http://www.defence.gov.au/opex/glob...llery/20060705a/20060621adf8109730_110_lo.jpg

Btw, the OPV's must already have at least 1x Toplite EO/IR sensor for the 25mm, so another may be required to provide full 360 degree coverage, but again, they aren't that big or heavy and can sit nice and high on the superstructure, or antenna's with relative ease...

Cheers

AD
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I agree with Toby that the Otago's with the 25mm are adequate for NZ EEZ patrols. (Even though maybe a 40mm would have been better).
In the end I have to agree with Sea Toby about that the 25mm gun is sufficent. I don't think anyone can really ignore the experience of the USCG. In addition the Deepwater IPT powerpoint puts the range of low level threats weapons at a max of 1,000 metres. The effective range of the 25mm Bushmaster (on Wikipedia) is 3,000 metres, though I have heard 2,500 metres.

However, lack of overall choices in terms of equipment available for ops/deployment to the RNZN and NZDF as a whole, it is possible that the OPV's could find themselves in higher-than-expected-risk situations. Not necessarily in a situation where someone would try and use the OPV as a warship....

Given that the RNZN is currently a two frigate-only navy, I feel it is likely that at some point, either one of the OPV's or perhaps Canterbury will be deployed as a 'show of force' to a situation where the vessel would be at risk.
This has been one of the key reasons I've have supported the upgrade of the OPV's weapons capability. However in light of the increasing view that the 25mm is sufficent for the main roles being performed. I think NZ needs to acquire 4 OCV as an alternative to more frigates or OPV.

Incidentally I have been trying to work out what sort of capabilities and systems would been appropriate for an OCV design that would meet both RAN and RNZN needs. Once I have finished, I will post it, but so far, it is resembling a 100 m OPV/corvette that would likely displace ~2,500 tons.
In terms of NZ requirements I see a need to supplement the capability of the ANZAC's and OPV's. To that end I propose the following...


  1. [1] Sensors - The Vessel should be equipped with key sensors, similar to the Thetis class patrol frigate (Air, ESM, Surface and Sonar). Based on the following weapons outfit this would require 6 Multi Function Operator Consoles and 2 systems specific consoles for the 25mm operation.

  • [2] Weapons - Non Warlike operations around NZ and South Pacific: 76mm, 2x MSI 25mm Bushmaster GSA (Equipped with Mistral), 2 x 2 ASW Torpedo Tubes (12 Torpedos normal: 16 War), SURBOC Countermeasures, Helicopter (No ASW Sensors, though East Timor suggested they're needed).

  • [3] Modular Weapons Upgrade for Military operations (Medium Intensity and above): ESSM, Harpoon, Towed array sonar. For every 4 ships (Assuming 2 available for military operations) I would suggest: 1 Towed Array Sonar, 1 or 2 x Harpoon Modules and 2 x ESSM Modules.

  • [4] Additional modules for 4 vessels using a working deck in the stern: 1 x MCM, 2 x CB90 type boat, 2 x 20ft ISO Civil Defence Containers. I'm still thinking about the need for an environmental pollution module, diving and survey modules.

  • [5] Crew: Core Crew of: 10-12 Officers: 58-60 Senior Rates & Junior Rates, including aircrew. Additional berths for deployed combat operations and training: 30. At 70 (with 10 Flight Crew), the ship would be a bit short on the Damage Control / Medical capability. Given the weight limitation I don't think an embarked force capability is viable.

  • [6] Endurance: I would leave the ANZAC requirement of 18kts @ 6000nm in place and 28 days supplies, given the distances involved in South Pacific Opertions. Normal Cruise speed with equal the OPV's @ 12kts (with a higher range than 6,000nm). The max speed needs to around 25kts, though acheiving 27kts at 2,500 tonnes just on Diesels might be possible. However to keep the cost down, its got be Diesels (Electric) or Gas Turbine, but not both.
Anyway thats my thoughts on a OCV for NZ.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
its worth remembering that the OPV's can carry seasprites,- and they're able to deploy with Mavericks


I doubt that they would be deployed into "difficult" contested space without adequate escort, so 25mm and relative organic armed air is more than sufficient when solo.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
its worth remembering that the OPV's can carry seasprites,- and they're able to deploy with Mavericks


I doubt that they would be deployed into "difficult" contested space without adequate escort, so 25mm and relative organic armed air is more than sufficient when solo.
While the Seasprites can indeed be carried by the OPVs, there is no armoury or magazine attached to the hangar. This means that any armaments carried aboard the Seasprites needs to stored in the ships magazine which is on Deck 01, forward of the bridge. This would mean any missiles (assuming there is room for them to be carried) would need to be transported through the ship's internal passageways and then up a deck to get to the hangar for deployment aboard a helicopter. With the AGM-65A/B variants being the lightest Mavericks at a svelte:rolleyes: ~207 kg, I doubt that there would be any desire to move the missile about within the ship any more than the absolute minimum.

It would be that, or store the missiles in the hangar with the helicopter but not have them secured in magazine. Given the potential dangers that could expose the ship to just in terms of accidents, I doubt this would ever be done.

In short, it looks the the OPV's were setup to carry unarmed SAR-type helicopters, not combat-oriented naval helicopters.

-Cheers
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It would be that, or store the missiles in the hangar with the helicopter but not have them secured in magazine. Given the potential dangers that could expose the ship to just in terms of accidents, I doubt this would ever be done.

In short, it looks the the OPV's were setup to carry unarmed SAR-type helicopters, not combat-oriented naval helicopters.

-Cheers
I've seen a few safety critical issues busted in my time - esp when levels are raised. I wouldn't assume that if push comes to shove that things in the armoury don't end up cohabitating in the hanger - out of operational convenience of course. :)
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
.......

Btw, the OPV's must already have at least 1x Toplite EO/IR sensor for the 25mm, so another may be required to provide full 360 degree coverage, but again, they aren't that big or heavy and can sit nice and high on the superstructure, or antenna's with relative ease...

Cheers

AD
I can't remember what they are but I know for certain that the Protector fleet don't have TopLites. They're a commercial system so I'm not sure what degree of integration there is between gun & bridge top EO/IR sensor. The 25mm mount of course has an inbuilt EO/IR sensor - I dare say they rely on that for gunnery.

I've had the Canterbury's bridge top EO/IR sensor shown to me first hand and believe me it's a very effective unit (I'll try & dig up the manufacturer). Saw both day & night imaging - even lit up the heat on the hull from the engine-room of a container ship berthed at a wharf 1km away. Well I liked it anyway! :cool:

It can train through almost 300 degrees so gives fairly good coverage, but yes there is a blind spot. However they then were able to use the flightdeck camera to zoom in on a boat about 2km away dead astern - and in very close detail so that would assist with observation, although it doesn't have EO/IR capability. Defintely agree need 360 EO/IR sensor coverage - with RWS to boot. :ar15
 
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Gibbo

Well-Known Member
I can't remember what they are but I know for certain that the Protector fleet don't have TopLites. They're a commercial system so I'm not sure what degree of integration there is between gun & bridge top EO/IR sensor. The 25mm mount of course has an inbuilt EO/IR sensor - I dare say they rely on that for gunnery.

I've had the Canterbury's bridge top EO/IR sensor shown to me first hand and believe me it's a very effective unit (I'll try & dig up the manufacturer). Saw both day & night imaging - even lit up the heat on the hull from the engine-room of a container ship berthed at a wharf 1km away. Well I liked it anyway! :cool:

It can train through almost 300 degrees so gives fairly good coverage, but yes there is a blind spot. However they then were able to use the flightdeck camera to zoom in on a boat about 2km away dead astern - and in very close detail so that would assist with observation, although it doesn't have EO/IR capability. Defintely agree need 360 EO/IR sensor coverage - with RWS to boot. :ar15
Protector fleet all have Vistar EO/IR. Not sure what model but square boxlike in appearance...

Vistar Night Vision
 

anzac3

Member
Now that primeminister john key says no more spending , i doubt if there will be any more new frigates ( with actual weapons).
I wonder if we could secure a few second hand ex royal navy ships to replace , endevour and bring the navy up to the 3 frigate minimum that australia demands.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Now that primeminister john key says no more spending , i doubt if there will be any more new frigates ( with actual weapons).
I wonder if we could secure a few second hand ex royal navy ships to replace , endevour and bring the navy up to the 3 frigate minimum that australia demands.
Govt Departments (defence included) are being asked to review their expenditure and seek efficiencies where possible on their existing budgets. For example, the finance minister says, from:
Beehive - Budget frees another $1.8b for priority spending
"The Government will continue to weed out low quality spending. We will live within the $1.1 billion annual operating allowance for new spending we have set ourselves, and restrict annual increases in this figure to 2 per cent from 2011/12."

Mr English repeated that most Government agencies would receive no budget increases over the next three or four years, as the Government moved to get back to Budget surplus as soon as possible.

"It's clear from the work we've done so far that there is considerable scope to provide better public services by improving processes, removing duplication and reallocating resources from low quality spending to improve frontline public services.
But if you read the rest of that article and the full speech here:
Beehive - Speech to the Wellington Regional Chamber of Commerce
You will see that some monies are being freed up for the 2010 budget. As the economy improves, you may see more money being freed up but at this point in time, I wouldn't expect any major defence expenditure increases within the next 3 years or so, although previous signals have suggested that defence is an area that will see some small incremental increases. So not all doom and gloom despite the economic environment.

For the Frigates then, the signals put out previously is that budgeting for their replacement in the mid-late 2020's is being planned for (we have to wait until the defence review is released to find out what the Govt is actually planning for and whether it is more than 2 new builds). In the short term the Navy resources are being committed to working up on the new Protector patrol fleet and to fill some critical manning shortages on the Frigate fleet. Because of these, there's no real need to acquire a 3rd Frigate just yet, but hopefully within a few years as personnel gain experience and come thru the ranks, and if the Govt deems that it needs the Navy to meet its expected "outputs" in terms of supporting foreign policy, then perhaps a 3rd Frigate could be on the cards, assuming something suitable can be found. With the NZ-US relationship leaping ahead due to the changes of Govt in both countries since late 2008, I would expect to see more Navy-Navy cooperation and it could be that Govt deems naval patrol (Protector) and combat assets (frigates) be a meaningful and visible means to improve the relationship, so that potentially could also clear the way ahead to acquire a 3rd frigate (should Govt wish to see more support of international efforts in the Gulf, Indian Ocean or possibly even SE/NE Asia), or it could be more patrol assets (eg OPV's or OCV's) in efforts to improve better policing efforts and visibilty in the Pacific (more benign, but also seeing increased rising power influence). I don't think the RNZN will be downgraded as a result, more likely, improved in some form or another.

On the other hand, things can go pear-shape quite easily in defence, for example as we hear publically more about the defects of the Canterbury (and we'll soon be finding out whether the OPV's have any hidden faults as they enter service), time, money and effort can easily be wasted or distracted by having to deal with these issues, which could slow down efforts to get the Navy to 100% (as the delays and re-orientations in the early to mid 2000's caused, and are still having residue effects to this day etc).

In the meantime the current Frigates do need a self-defence upgrade (ESSM has to be a given, new torpedos and associated sensors etc), and because of Project Protector freeing up the Frigates to better support Govt policy in the wider Asia-Pacific-Gulf area, it would also be a given that this will happen, although to what extent and the timing of which, remains to be seen.

Good times for the Navy ahead, and the Air Force and aspects of the Army in terms of the recognition that securing NZ's maritime sphere (collectively with others) is critical to NZ's economic well-being and standing with the bigger players. Although don't expect NZ to do anything radical as Australia in terms of improving the wide spectrum of its capabilities, alas, for economic reasons and slightly different strategic realities.

Having said that, forget "isolationism" and "independence" that came about naturally as a result of the 1980's ANZUS fallout, even the (NZ) players then that played their hand to cause the fallout, realised when they gained power themselves in the 2000's they found out the realities and practicalties of the complex world of inter-twinning interests and needs*, saw the start of the acceleration of efforts to get back into the club so to speak (unfortunately after the initial hubris saw the gutting and cutting of defence combat capabilities) and now we're not likely to see again such a radical departure in terms of defence/relationships from either of the two main parties!

(* thanks mainly to AQ and 9/11 - their unintended consequences brought NZ back into the US fold - the dipsticks. As well as other regional problems eg ET, Bali & places in the pacific etc).
 
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anzac3

Member
Thankyou for your reply , and clarification of the budget,
I sure dont think nz could participate in more than one joint venture at a time, because if both frigates were away, that would leave no cover at all for nz.
We really dont have a airforce , do we as in Air + Force, but i really hope we get one soon, as you all know asia is a hotbed of politics and anythings possible, although OIL would normaly be involved.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
With money tight for the NZ budget, but with the reality of little government debt as people on this site and other have stated, NZ stands in an envious position if it wanted it could restructure the NZDF to accommodate a small increase in real terms in defence spending.

I believe that with the up coming necessary replacement of so many critical systems where the Government have only been spending the bare minimum on long term key items, it will if policy of the government is to be implemented and acted on in good faith the defence budget will have to be increased in real terms.

I am not sure if NZ would look at a 7000t frigate which Australia might get in the future frigate, but an alternative is a formidable class frigates as which have recently come on line with the Republic of Singapore Navy, it is based on the French La Fayette class frigate,
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formidable_class_frigate"]Formidable class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Singapore_Navy_guided-missile_frigate_RSS_Steadfast.jpg" class="image" title="RSS Steadfast in 2008"><img alt="RSS Steadfast in 2008" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Singapore_Navy_guided-missile_frigate_RSS_Steadfast.jpg/300px-Singapore_Navy_guided-missile_frigate_RSS_Steadfast.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/8/83/Singapore_Navy_guided-missile_frigate_RSS_Steadfast.jpg/300px-Singapore_Navy_guided-missile_frigate_RSS_Steadfast.jpg[/ame]

Although NZ would not get any saving in a long term build with Australia the cost saving in buying a smaller frigate might come out at the same price for three if they choose to go down this route, and the ship will not be an orphan in the area with RSN using the same ship.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Although NZ would not get any saving in a long term build with Australia the cost saving in buying a smaller frigate might come out at the same price for three if they choose to go down this route, and the ship will not be an orphan in the area with RSN using the same ship.
Nope.

Its the systems that make up the greatest part of the cost of a warhips, not its displacement. For example something lik 50% of a T45's cost is the PAAMs system.

You wont get 3 ships rather then two by going for a smaller ship if it has roughly the same level of combat systems and armament, what you do get is a ship with a lot less scope for future updates.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Agreed StevoJH. While a NZ OPV ran around NZ$100, the Canterbury ran close to NZ $200 million or so, and an Anzac frigate ran up to if not over NZ $500 million. The Canterbury is about 2-3 times larger than an Anzac, and 4-5 times larger than a NZ OPV. While more steel for a larger ship does cost more, the outer steel shell of the ship is cheap compared the sophisticated electronic systems inside....
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Yes i realize that most of the money on combat ships goes on the combat systems and armament, but i was thinking along the lines of system’s that would go on the ANZAC MKll compared to the formidable class frigates, bit unrealistic of myself to think it will be half but if ship cost’s are cheaper by 1/4 than maybe a third ship could be purchased.
 

anzac3

Member
I thought what yr saying sounded abit high as in cost, so i put it to a friend on the pukakeo and he reminded me what hed said 3 years ago , that "the tenix deal for the protector fleet was similiarly priced fitted for weapons as opposed to a dutch? deal that was fitted with weapons" but of course the contract went to tennix because of nz supplying part of the contract.


Nope.

Its the systems that make up the greatest part of the cost of a warhips, not its displacement. For example something lik 50% of a T45's cost is the PAAMs system.

You wont get 3 ships rather then two by going for a smaller ship if it has roughly the same level of combat systems and armament, what you do get is a ship with a lot less scope for future updates.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
I thought what yr saying sounded abit high as in cost, so i put it to a friend on the pukakeo and he reminded me what hed said 3 years ago , that "the tenix deal for the protector fleet was similiarly priced fitted for weapons as opposed to a dutch? deal that was fitted with weapons" but of course the contract went to tennix because of nz supplying part of the contract.
There is a fine line of value difference politically and with the bottom line. Spending a bit less for overseas equipment is not as good as spending a bit more and seeing that money flow through the New Zealand economy. One shipyard job generates other jobs in an area around the shipyard, if not throughout the country with the sub contractors. From a government point of view those jobs generate taxes, sending for equipment abroad generates jobs elsewhere, not in New Zealand...

While I don't know the exact value price differential, it would not surprise me if that total ended up being over fifteen percent. I am sure the government would have preferred to build all of the ships in New Zealand, doing so is politically a winner. But the government also has to get value for its money too...
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
There is a fine line of value difference politically and with the bottom line. Spending a bit less for overseas equipment is not as good as spending a bit more and seeing that money flow through the New Zealand economy. One shipyard job generates other jobs in an area around the shipyard, if not throughout the country with the sub contractors. From a government point of view those jobs generate taxes, sending for equipment abroad generates jobs elsewhere, not in New Zealand...

While I don't know the exact value price differential, it would not surprise me if that total ended up being over fifteen percent. I am sure the government would have preferred to build all of the ships in New Zealand, doing so is politically a winner. But the government also has to get value for its money too...
While involving Australia and not New Zealand, a number of Australian programmes are either domestic designs, or domestic production of foreign designs. This is often done even if the Australian-built kit is up to ~30% more than the same piece of foreign kit. The reason behind this is the amount of flow-through. Any monies spent in "Buy Australia," lead to more Australians employed, who in turn pay taxes and spend money on goods and services, which lead to yet more people employed, paying taxes and purchasing yet more goods and services, etc. Also, any domestic production is going to use more domestic resources (rawmats, sub-components, etc) for whatever is being worked on. And this increased demand for product from domestic sources again leads to more domestic employment and spending.

I would imagine that New Zealand is in a similar situation, though not necessarily to the same extent, being smaller both in population, resource and industrialized levels.

-Cheers
 
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