NATO in Afghanistan

[riksavage]

New figures published today in the UK press reveal European (NATO member)military spending in Afghanistan for 2007. Britain’s military operation cost £742million, Spain £187million, Italy £234million and Germany averaging £300million a year.

As we continue to witness a disproportionate commitment by a limited number of NATO Allies (UK, US, Canada and the Netherlands) in high-risk areas maybe consideration should be given to a fixed $ figure contribution by NATO members based on GDP, which could then be distributed to help equip those forces doing the majority of the heavy fighting, and by association suffering the greatest attrition in man-power and material. This would allow for the purchase of additional MARP vehicles, ammunition etc., which could be sent to areas under the greatest pressure.

Makes sense to me, it also gets around political minefields in countries such as Germany, which continues to debate troop commitments to the South. By providing additional funds they could support financially those countries prepared to step-up to the plate (smaller East European Nations), but who lack financial resources to buy suitable equipment.

 

[waraich]

New figures published today in the UK press reveal European (NATO member)military spending in Afghanistan for 2007. Britain’s military operation cost £742million, Spain £187million, Italy £234million and Germany averaging £300million a year.

As we continue to witness a disproportionate commitment by a limited number of NATO Allies (UK, US, Canada and the Netherlands) in high-risk areas maybe consideration should be given to a fixed $ figure contribution by NATO members based on GDP, which could then be distributed to help equip those forces doing the majority of the heavy fighting, and by association suffering the greatest attrition in man-power and material. This would allow for the purchase of additional MARP vehicles, ammunition etc., which could be sent to areas under the greatest pressure.

Makes sense to me, it also gets around political minefields in countries such as Germany, which continues to debate troop commitments to the South. By providing additional funds they could support financially those countries prepared to step-up to the plate (smaller East European Nations), but who lack financial resources to buy suitable equipment.

We have to analyse first ,why NATO and US forces failed to control the few thausand ill equiped talabans in seven years.

Talaban have very strong basis in pakistan ,which is give them depth against US and NATO forces.

In seven years US and NATO never consider that this serious problem,they underestimated them badly.

Talaban are very much trained in Gurilla war hit and run which dont need heavy weapons and proved very much effective also against Russia.

Boarder length of pakistan and afghan is more than 1500 KM,which is almost difficult to monitor.

Talaban have very good war finance support system through norcotics,they dont need any financial or arm support from any country.

All above factors and their strong will to defend their homeland playing major role in their long term strategical gurilla war fare tactics.

 

[Cooch]

All above factors and their strong will to defend their homeland playing major role in their long term strategical gurilla war fare tactics.

A small objection.

It is not correct, IMO, to characterise the actions of the Talaban as "defending their homeland".

In the context of Afghanistan as a whole, it is more correct to state that - since the withdrawal of the Soviets - the Talaban have been engaged in a civil war aimed at establishing and defending their own political power-base.

If you wish to disagree on the basis that the T. have been defending their autonomy in their own tribal areas... then you must alao accept that their actions in areas that do not belong to their tribal base amount to a war of aggression. That the Afghans against whom this agression is aimed are being defended by foreign allies, does not change this.

Respectfully............ Peter

 

[Twister]

To win in Afghanistan, NATO should refer to Communist Insurgencies against Malaysian Govenment (1960 - 1980).

Malaysian government with help from Commanwell Forces fight against Malayan Comunist Party for 20 years. It look to long for some body but finally Malaysian Government win. The factor that contribute is not the forces alone but the local people.

NATO campaign in Afghanistan (also in Iraq) failed because they missed out of the local people. How do you think Taliban get their weapon & manpower if not from local people (Afghani & Pakistani citizen)?

 

[waraich]

To win in Afghanistan, NATO should refer to Communist Insurgencies against Malaysian Govenment (1960 - 1980).

Malaysian government with help from Commanwell Forces fight against Malayan Comunist Party for 20 years. It look to long for some body but finally Malaysian Government win. The factor that contribute is not the forces alone but the local people.

NATO campaign in Afghanistan (also in Iraq) failed because they missed out of the local people. How do you think Taliban get their weapon & manpower if not from local people (Afghani & Pakistani citizen)?

Agreed. But I dont think NATO will not change their strategy because NATO have multiple aims rehablitation and peace in Afghanistan , favourable government which support them to tap oil resourses of central asia , generate treath for iran not to build nukes and to gain strategic adavantage by placing focres in back yard of iran.

Initially NATO underetimated the talaban but now they realise the depth of waters that is reason US sending more troops but still this war may prolong more then one decade ,which will end when one faction will be exhasted .

Talabans are very much stringent in their believes but they can be segregated or isolated from Al Qaida by political tactics ,recently Saudi Arabia attempted to bring them on discussion table to reduce the gap between two groups,which is right strategy.

 

[waraich]

Iran has nothing to fear (unfortunately...) from the outnumbered NATO forces trying to hunt for guerrillas and to preserve some sort of peace to allow for reconstruction...
Besides, there is a sizeable minority of Shi'ites in eastern Afghanistan who wouldn't exactly be happy with NATO forces rolling west...
On the other hand, this is a place where Iran and the West can cooperate, since the Iranian authorities despize the al-qaeda factions behind the talibans

cheers

Your perception is not correct.It is true they dont like talaban belong to sunni faction but also they dont like NATO forces in their back yard strategically.
Initially NATO undetestimated talaban but now they realise the depth of waters that is reason US sending more trops in Afghanistan.Let see , these extra forces could reverse the direction of winds or not.

 

[Twister]

It's good to know that Saudi Arab has put their hand in this matter. But Sudi Arab alone is not enough. Pakistan & Iran also needed to lend their hand but it's just a day dream since both side has bad feeling especially when involving US foreign policy for Iran and cross-border offensive into Pakistan Territory by ISAF.

Still, NATO needed to built a relation with local community. Without local community involvement, Afghan operation will be failed as what happen to UN operation in Somalia.

 

[waraich]

It's good to know that Saudi Arab has put their hand in this matter. But Sudi Arab alone is not enough. Pakistan & Iran also needed to lend their hand but it's just a day dream since both side has bad feeling especially when involving US foreign policy for Iran and cross-border offensive into Pakistan Territory by ISAF.

Still, NATO needed to built a relation with local community. Without local community involvement, Afghan operation will be failed as what happen to UN operation in Somalia.

Exactly,NATO should have learn lessons that Afghanistan is land locked country 80% supply of NATO is possible from Pakistan.With out support of FATA trible pushtoon it is not possible to play in Afghanistan.

If some one take wrong turn and dont realise that he has taken wrong turn then there is no chance of his correction.NATO is in same satuation now

 

[waraich]

A small objection.

It is not correct, IMO, to characterise the actions of the Talaban as "defending their homeland".

In the context of Afghanistan as a whole, it is more correct to state that - since the withdrawal of the Soviets - the Talaban have been engaged in a civil war aimed at establishing and defending their own political power-base.

If you wish to disagree on the basis that the T. have been defending their autonomy in their own tribal areas... then you must alao accept that their actions in areas that do not belong to their tribal base amount to a war of aggression. That the Afghans against whom this agression is aimed are being defended by foreign allies, does not change this.

Respectfully............ Peter

I dont think all NATO forces and their leaders except Briton have knowledge of religion,culture and customs of Afghans.
Traditionally they always remain in state of war from last hundred of years,infact always these Afghan ruled or helped rulers of india .No invader could be suceeded with out help of these Afghan Tribes.

That is reason no invader tried to ruled them.What ever reason behind the invasion of NATO in Afghanistan they will never accept them or any ruler supported by them.This is history of Afghans but it is not easy to understand that is reason after seven years NATO is still under process of learning and failing to control these talaban.

 

[Twister]

Yes..it's true that most NATO leader forget that thier forces fighting in foreign land which has different culture and religion. Except Briton (who has long history in Afghan and south asia) and South Korea (who send their muslim soldiers), most NATO forces trying to bring and promote thier own culture.

Also contribute is selection of Hamid Karzai as a President. Eventhou he is Pasthun and muslim but most rural community who has conservetive view seing he just a puppet to change Afghani culture & religion.

 

[Feanor]

They can also use Russia-CAR route from Europe for supplies. As long as they don't make the Soviet mistake of losing control over the roads inside Afghan proper, it would avoid the tribal areas of Pakistan.

 

[Twister]

Using Russia-CAR route not practical for NATO. They have done before but finally being ask to leave.

NATO move their logistics route to Pakistan since being ask to leave Uzbekistan after being pressure by SCO (Shanghai Cooperation Organisation).

The only hope was Pakistan. All others Aghanistan neighbour nation such as Iran, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan and China has several issue with NATO especially US.

 

[waraich]

A small objection.

It is not correct, IMO, to characterise the actions of the Talaban as "defending their homeland".

Afghanistan is their homeland they have right to defend it,but they have also need to learn how to deal and tackle with international strong communities like neozoinist,jewzoinist and other evil axis and forces of world having presently very strong influence on world super powers.

In the context of Afghanistan as a whole, it is more correct to state that - since the withdrawal of the Soviets - the Talaban have been engaged in a civil war aimed at establishing and defending their own political power-base.

Talaban swept whole afghanistan after soviat withdrawal with help of afghan people .They have been engaged with northern alliance dostum and mahsud supported by iran just like iran is supporting shia in iraq to destablize the talaban government.

If you wish to disagree on the basis that the T. have been defending their autonomy in their own tribal areas... then you must alao accept that their actions in areas that do not belong to their tribal base amount to a war of aggression. That the Afghans against whom this agression is aimed are being defended by foreign allies, does not change this.

Respectfully............ Peter

These Afghan have history of wars and they remain aggressors for hundred of years and ruled many parts of india and pakistan but this is third time they are under foriegn aggression.First two attempt by Russia and Britain failed ,the third attempt is also failing or near to failure.:nutkick

They have their own jerga system(Trible Courts) which they think is only legtimate body to resolve their disputes.
NATO should respect their justice system and should try to restore this system if they want peace and prosperity in Afghanistan .Afghans will never accept western style of democracy as refused by Saudi Arabia and other GCC muslim countries which they think HARAM(Prohibited in Islam) .

Hoped objection clarified

Regards,

 

[SABRE]

Afghans will never accept western style of democracy as refused by Saudi Arabia and other GCC muslim countries which they think HARAM(Prohibited in Islam) .

Although offline ... the KSA and GCC declare western style democracy as Haram (prohibited or illegal) only to secure their own kingdoms. The Islamic concept of governance calls for the establishment of Khalifat with Khalifa being the head of the dominian. As far as I recall the rule is to "elect" a Khalifa. According to tradition Khalifa is elected by a "council."

The council during 1st 5 Khalifas consisted of appointed officials by prophet Muhammad (PBUH) himself but after the takeover of Omiyads the tradition (as appossed to Prophet's tradition) was inplace which called upon dynastic rule. Nevertheless; the legal council which elects Khalifa includes the representatives or heads of Muslim ethnic or tribal groups. These heads used to be (and still are) elected by the ethnic groups and tribesmen themselves.

Now comparing this with most of the modern democracies. People elect members to the parliament while parliament elect the Prime Ministers as in line with the same proceedure as electing a Khalifa.

The only difference is Khliafat calls for Khalifas control over all the Muslim majority land. States may continue to have their soveriengty but Khalifa will be their head of all Muslim states (even if all powers are vested in the Prime Minister --- Abbassid model).

Therefore; Afghan government is legal in a sense that people have to elect their own leader. The only problem is that their leader is a pupet and majority does not like him. Plus there is no Khalifa in the Muslim world to guide the countries.


Note: Ass oppossed to western belief Khilafat is not a theological government. If it was Ommiyads would have never been able to sustain their power for so long.


If Khalifa is to be re-elected to rule the Muslim world the 1st countries to oppose him would again be the KSA and the GCC states.

 

[waraich]

Although offline ... the KSA and GCC declare western style democracy as Haram (prohibited or illegal) only to secure their own kingdoms. The Islamic concept of governance calls for the establishment of Khalifat with Khalifa being the head of the dominian. As far as I recall the rule is to "elect" a Khalifa. According to tradition Khalifa is elected by a "council."

Agreed but kingdom is considered in islam better then western style of democracy if king follow the basic principles and rules of islam but it is not long term solution for muslim society.

The council during 1st 5 Khalifas consisted of appointed officials by prophet Muhammad (PBUH) himself but after the takeover of Omiyads the tradition (as appossed to Prophet's tradition) was inplace which called upon dynastic rule. Nevertheless; the legal council which elects Khalifa includes the representatives or heads of Muslim ethnic or tribal groups. These heads used to be (and still are) elected by the ethnic groups and tribesmen themselves.

After period of four Khalifas, there is very abrupt decline as result omiyads and abasid ruled which was not considered as examplery period in muslim history except three years of umer bin abdulaziz ,he restored same khalafat style of governence and justice.

Now comparing this with most of the modern democracies. People elect members to the parliament while parliament elect the Prime Ministers as in line with the same proceedure as electing a Khalifa.

To count only numbers is objection able in view of shariah law which empesis quality not quantity and second point is that president or khlifa can not nominate him slef as candidate.These are major differences in both systems.

The only difference is Khliafat calls for Khalifas control over all the Muslim majority land. States may continue to have their soveriengty but Khalifa will be their head of all Muslim states (even if all powers are vested in the Prime Minister --- Abbassid model).

Your statement for Abbassid or Omvi rulee is true but in khalafat shoura council is more power full then khalifa or president.

Therefore; Afghan government is legal in a sense that people have to elect their own leader. The only problem is that their leader is a pupet and majority does not like him. Plus there is no Khalifa in the Muslim world to guide the countries.

In fact Afghan always rejected foriegn nominated canidate as they opposed Dr Najib ullah in Russian aggression.They even considered that King Zahir Shah is better then any foriegn implanted leader

Note: Ass oppossed to western belief Khilafat is not a theological government. If it was Ommiyads would have never been able to sustain their power for so long.


If Khalifa is to be re-elected to rule the Muslim world the 1st countries to oppose him would again be the KSA and the GCC states.

[/QUOTE]


Muslims considered that Sultant Usmania disolved by british kindom in 1924 was biggest lose of muslim world. Which is main reason behind peace problems in middle east and hatred towards western powers in muslim world .

It is true but still true muslims think that khalafat is only solution of problems of muslim world but it need long term struggle which is continue peacefully .
You can see one example of this system alive in raiwind pakistan and nijamudin india.

 

[Twister]

Thank for the opinion on past islamics political & administrator structure.

What happen to Afghanistan is not just about Northern Alliance, NATO (ISAF) and Taliban but also involved complicated religion & culture issue.

To tackle this problem, NATO should consider to get support from Arab League & OIC. Taliban has long relationship with Pakistan and Arab Saudi (which the only nation to recognise Taliban government). Taliban who known as "Student" mostly volunteer who learned from school which financially support by Royal Saudi.

 

[SABRE]

Muslims considered that Sultant Usmania disolved by british kindom in 1924 was biggest lose of muslim world. Which is main reason behind peace problems in middle east and hatred towards western powers in muslim world.

Although the fall of Ottomans was designed by the British (along with several Western states as well as Russia ... read Ottomans in WW-I) it were these very same Arabs who had helped British achieve their objective (read about T.E. Lowrance). That is why the Turks dislike them.

I think its better that we now go back to the topic.

 

[waraich]

Thank for the opinion on past islamics political & administrator structure.

What happen to Afghanistan is not just about Northern Alliance, NATO (ISAF) and Taliban but also involved complicated religion & culture issue.

To tackle this problem, NATO should consider to get support from Arab League & OIC. Taliban has long relationship with Pakistan and Arab Saudi (which the only nation to recognise Taliban government). Taliban who known as "Student" mostly volunteer who learned from school which financially support by Royal Saudi.

You are very much right we actually focusing on issues which we heard from media but there is also a big game continued.Afghanistan has very important strategic location ,it is gate way for central asian for oil and gas trade.All three major powers have desire to get this oppurtunity.

 

[Twister]

Ur right,

NATO seem to give all their got to ensure Afghanistan in their hand/side. Afgahnistan not just gateway in Central Asia/South Asia but also the key to preventing Russian-China influence.

As NATO success extend their influence to ex-warsaw pact nation, Russian-China seem success expend their influence through South Asia, Africa and latest target is Latin America.

 

[Teindva]

NATO forces if increased to a million at least may be able to come up with the law and order situation in Afghanistan beside confronting the guerillas alongwith. The motto was to clear the terrorists and to stop poppy cultivation so as to control the drug taffic in the world, obviously resistant groups will also increase in number and activities against the increase in foreign forces. As far as poppy crop is concerned, Afghans say that the production now has increased much more than ever before after the area has come under American and NATO control.