NATO in Afghanistan

Teindva

New Member
Lets hope we don't have to witness another one of these:

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...ur/80thAnniversaryOfRafsEvacuationOfKabul.htm

Any failure of NATO in A-STAN will have a dramatic impact upon Pakistan, the country will become a basket case, there's no way the ISI will be able to keep a reinvigorated Taliban in check. This in turn could lead to increased activity in Kashmir as more militants are trained and equipped by a Pakistan-Afghanistan extremist and dysfunctional regimes, which in turn would definitely lead to another conflict with India.

Also China will not support a dysfunctional Pakistan, the last think they need / want is the spread of an extremist ideology amongst their own Muslim minorities.

NATO has to succeed, there is simply too much at stake.
You mean that the South Asian region be submitted to Nato which is alreading ailing in Afghanistan.
Mr.Mookerji, you have said about tribes, that is upto some extent a matter to consider but not upto that extent. A justifiable government existing in Afghanistan will not make any tribe to oppose that and if done so be oppressed. Many a times they have been brought to table to chose any one of them but these ethnic divisions are so deep that none accepts the headship of other and thus had brought upon them the force of Taliban who have no any tribal division. (There are three ethnic groups Afghan/pathan, Persians, Turkic(Ozbek,Turkmen, Aimaq).

As for the Russian offer to let pass non-military items to Afghanistan. It is obvious that the logistics to an army lying there in thousands has non other non-military item but only their ration.
 

waraich

Banned Member
Afghanistan, is not a nation, in the sense that The United States, or Great Britain is. For that matter, India is not similar to The United States, and Great Britian is not similar to India, nor to the United States, when she defines her nationhood. Democracy, as it is practiced in the United States, will not work in Afghanistan. When Afghanistan had a ruler, in the past, he was as distant, as any ruler is to his subjects. The Afghan's find belonging in their individual tribes, to which the Afghan gives allegiance. Ties of tribe, are stronger, than ties of nationhood. If the tribe in Afghanistan is content, then Afghanistan is peaceful. Unfortunately, the western powers did not do anything for Afghanistan, after the Soviets were forced to leave Afghanistan. There was widespread misery in Afghanistan. Now, things may be a bit better. Governance in Afghanistan has to improve. The government has to foster better understanding between the tribes, and also has to understand the tribes more sympathetically.
Agreed,same tribes also exist in Pakistan , US and NATO need to understand their system of rule and can use this force in their favour, they all are not supprting OBL , they have no nationalist ideas but they prefer islam and shariah, GOP made deal with Sufi local tribel leaders in SWAT ,hopefully peace will be restored in that area and FATA also if same steps were taken.

Simmilarly Afghanistan can be moved towards peace if Shariah law implemented and US & NATO give local tribel leaders chance to maintain peace.
 

Teindva

New Member
For the time envoys of NATO are trying to make some access to Ozbek government to make their own alternative route to Afghanistan secure. Seems they are convincing Ozbeks that they should make some treaty to fight against the un-armed Afghan nationals who want the foreign army ousted. They are seeking some common links of interests with Tashkent.
It is to be noted that a considerable portion of fighting groups in Afghanistan is already comprised of Ozbeks.
 

BRUTUS32

New Member
With NATO planning to increase its troop size by 25-30% over the next 18 months one has to ask the question that NATO may be using the excuse of the Taliban and the Afghans weak government to secure a long term military stronghold in one of the most important strategic areas of the unstable world.
Oh ya; now that sounds realistic. A true conspiracy of the heads of NATO deciding that they want to secure a long term military stronghold in an area that has no natural resources; no port to ship these non existent resources too; no direct access; the only way to supply your new long term military stronghold is to supply it through either Iran, Pakistan, or Russia. I’m sure that NATO leaders think this is an ideal location to make a long term military stronghold and that they are just licking there chops over this idea. Please tell us how this is an important strategic area? What the resources? No it must be the opium, that’s what the NATO heads are after!!! They see a week Afghan government which will not stand in there way to become a great new drug cartel. Boy you are so smart. Oh no it must just be the location, radical Islamic groups to the south Russians to the North; with the Chinese in the east. NATO and the United States see Afghanistan as a complete logistic nightmare just for the reason I stated above. I really don’t believe that either NATO or the US are licking there chops over the wonderful idea to make Afghanistan a long term military stronghold. To even have one the most important factor is being able to resupply it. Afghanistan doesn’t even remotely fit this bill.

There is almost no mentioning of troop/force withdrawal only Generals screaming for more resources.
To accomplish the tasks requested by there elected political leaders it is a Generals responsibility to inform them of the assets they need to accomplish the tasks. Would you prefer Generals who lied and didn’t say what they needed? Now those sound like the kind of man I want to lead my son into battle. :rolleyes:

NATO will continue to build up serious amounts of firepower in Afghanistan until they feel they are in a position of force to force its presence in other local areas of conflict especially Iran.
Please do expand on this. Are you inferring that NATO wants war with Iran, or that NATO is planning on offensive operations in that country? To do what, overthrow the government? Did you ever thing that the forces that are being requested are to try and implement a different strategy to try and secure Afghanistan? That might be the reason.

NATO is an expensive effective force that calls for heavy demands from its members and this conflict is far from over it never will be,NATO need the Taliban excuse to justify the massed build up of force.
NATO needs the Taliban excuse to justify a massed build up? A mass build up for what? Oh wait a minute that’s right a build up for your war in Iran. :eek:nfloorl: Do you really believe that all of the heads of NATO sat down one day and decided among themselves that they want to wage an aggressive war with Iran or any of the surrounding countries? :eek:nfloorl: If so you should start writing fiction books. If this idea even remotely came up it would have been leaked to the media no doubt.


With the British withdrawal imminent from Iraq,those forces all now experienced fighting troops will not be going home to the green fields of England but straight to the bases in Afghanistan.
Maybe; so will US forces.

The UK has had 3 previous Afghan wars and has learned well.don`t be fooled by western propaganda these troop losses are well in acceptable levels for the massed planned build up. Iran be careful ......lol
Oh please do tell us where you got this information. Western Propaganda? :eek:nfloorl: I really would love to know more about this NATO conspiracy to attack Iran and that how the Taliban is all an excuse.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The troop losses experienced in the south are riding the red line when it comes to acceptable losses for the countries involved and are way over this line for some other NATO countries (Like Germany...).

The reinforcements brought in by the US are needed to actually win back territory which was lost to the Taliban in the last month and to provide the security which is needed for the civil rebuilding programs.

That this collection of light forces and alot of support troops at the end of a fragile supply chain (Like Brutus mentioned above) could be used to intimidate Iran is laughable.

If the US would really plan to put some military pressure on Iran they would just send some more HBCTs together with some air force wings and carrier task forces to Iraq and the gulf and show some muscles.
There is not need for the pitifull NATO forces in Afghanistan to look for other areas of operations outside of their own.
 

waraich

Banned Member
Or maybe the USA will inject large numbers of additional troops, as they become available from Iraq, and manages to take control of the borders, and then defeat the insurgency leading to a stabilization of the area and the emergence of a more or less modern secular Afghani state. This weakens taliban insurgents across the board, and with the tide turning Pakistan itself becomes far more stable, eventually leading to a period of general stability and peace in the entire region.
Injection of more US trop could not level of insurgency , because inside Pakistan Talabans now enjoy more support due to SWAT sharaih regime ,which increases the dangers on NATO supply already under threat.

Or maybe we're both full of sh*t. Would you like to qualify your anti-American bashing with something more then just your opinion? Facts are welcome. ;)

:nutkick
NATO cammanders mistrust on present strategy and views of milliband that WOT is not more feassible with present US strategy are actually back ground of my anti american bashing



Anyways, Russia has agreed to American transit of non-military goods, and all the documents have been signed. At this point the goods will be transported upon request. This includes land based transit, not just air corridors.

http://newsru.com/russia/12feb2009/tranzit.html

This comes right after the closing of the Kyrgyzystan base. At the same time, we have more rhetoric about cooperation on the Afghan issue, possible transit of military goods. It seems we're determined to hold the key to Afghan in our hands.
True, it doent fullfill the needs of ISAF, which currently already facing shortage of weapon supply through Pakistan route.for which US/NATO have to pay much more to play:D:
 
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waraich

Banned Member
NATO Cautions Pakistan Over Talks With Taliban

NATO Cautions Pakistan Over Talks With Taliban

by Associated Press

NPR.org, February 17, 2009 · NATO warned Tuesday that Pakistan risked creating a safe haven for Islamist extremists after it struck a deal to impose Islamic law and suspend a military offensive in the Swat Valley, a former tourist destination.

Criticism of the truce mounted as a hard-line cleric, dispatched by the government to convince the Taliban to stop fighting as part of the deal, arrived in the valley's main city of Mingora to a hero's welcome.

NATO says it has 55,000 troops across the border in Afghanistan, and many of them have come under attack by Taliban and al-Qaida fighters believed to have sought refuge in pockets of Pakistan's northwest.

"It is certainly reason for concern," NATO spokesman James Appathurai said in Brussels about the latest deal. "We should all be concerned by a situation in which extremists would have a safe haven. Without doubting the good faith of the Pakistani government, it is clear that the region is suffering very badly from extremists and we would not want it to get worse."

Britain also weighed in with reservations.

"Previous peace deals have not provided a comprehensive and long-term solution to Swat's problems," said a statement from the British High Commission in Islamabad. "We need to be confident that they will end violence — not create space for further violence."

In Japan, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said the Pakistani move still needed to be "thoroughly understood." She was on her first visit to Asia since taking up the post. A senior U.S. defense department official described the deal as a "negative development."

In Swat, the dispatched cleric, Sufi Muhammad, said he was hopeful the Taliban would cooperate with the agreement.

"We will soon open dialogue with the Taliban. We will ask them to lay down their weapons. We are hopeful that they will not let us down," Muhammad told reporters. "We will stay here in the valley until peace is restored."

Residents lined the route as his caravan of 300 people drove through, waving and shouting, "Long live peace! Long live Islam!"

Extremists in Swat have beheaded opponents and torched scores of girls schools in recent months, while gun battles between security forces and militants have killed hundreds. Up to a third of the valley's 1.5 million people have fled, and the scenic area is now believed to be mostly under militant control.

The provincial government in northwest Pakistan announced the deal Monday after it met with Islamists led by Muhammad, who has long demanded that Islamic, or Shariah, law be followed in this conservative corner of Pakistan. As part of the deal, Muhammad agreed to travel to Swat to discuss peace with Maulana Fazlullah, the leader of the Swat Taliban and Muhammad's son-in-law.

Muhammad was detained in 2002 after he sent thousands to fight U.S. troops in Afghanistan, but Pakistan freed him last year after he agreed to renounce violence. It is unclear how much influence he has over Fazlullah or exactly where they would meet, though a spokesman for the Swat Taliban leader welcomed Muhammad and has spoken positively of the truce.

The Swat Taliban said Sunday it would observe an initial 10-day cease-fire in a show of good faith.

Pakistan's inability to re-establish its authority in Swat has embarrassed the shaky civilian government and the military. However, Pakistani leaders insisted the deal was not a concession, but an attempt to fulfill demands by locals for a more efficient justice system.

"Those who want to live in a peaceful world will take steps like ours, and those who want to live in a violent world will take opposite steps," Northwest Frontier Province Information Minister Mian Iftikhar Hussain said in defending the agreement. "The need of the hour is to put water on fire, not to fuel it."

Some 2,000 militants are believed to operate in the valley. In defiance of the presence of some 10,000 paramilitary and army troops, they have already set up their own courts, meting out punishments in line with an exceptionally harsh brand of Islamic law.

Similar deals struck in the past have failed, including one last year in Swat that security officials said the insurgents used to regroup and re-arm.

"It is hard to view this as anything other than a negative development," a senior U.S. Defense Department official said. He requested anonymity because of the sensitive relations with Pakistan and because he was not authorized to speak on the record.

Officials said the agreement's main changes to the legal system are included in existing laws that allow for Muslim clerics to advise judges when hearing cases and that set up an Islamic appeals court. They said this would ensure speedier and fairer justice.

The rules do not ban female education or contain other strict interpretations of Shariah often adhered to by many Taliban.

Also Tuesday, a car bomb exploded near a local government official's residence, killing three people and wounding 12 others on the outskirts of the main northwest city of Peshawar, police officer Sifwat Ghayur said.
 

waraich

Banned Member
Australia Says NATO Needs New Strategy in Afghanistan

Australia Says NATO Needs New Strategy in Afghanistan


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By TIM JOHNSTON
Published: February 13, 2008

SYDNEY, Australia — Australia wants a major reconsideration of Western strategy in Afghanistan and will not increase its troop levels in the country until “underperforming” NATO countries shoulder their fair share of the burden, the Australian defense minister said Tuesday.
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“I have to say the West isn’t pursuing a coherent strategy in Afghanistan,” the newly appointed defense minister, Joel Fitzgibbon, said by telephone.

“We want to see more done to raise the number of both the Afghan National Army troops and Afghan National Police; we want to see a better strategy on narcotics; and we want to see much more done on the civil side,” he said.

Australia, with 970 troops in Afghanistan, is the largest non-NATO contributor to the effort. Four Australian soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan and 30 have been wounded.

NATO is struggling to find more troops to share the burden in Afghanistan. The organization is looking for at least 7,000 troops to add to the 43,000 already there.

Canada, which has suffered significant losses in the war, has threatened to pull its 2,500 troops out of Afghanistan early next year unless its allies can find another 1,000 soldiers to support its mission there.

Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates has warned that the conflict could break NATO apart unless some of the nations lift restrictions on the size and nature of their deployment, which effectively keep their soldiers out of danger.

“We must not — we cannot — become a two-tiered alliance of those who are willing to fight and those who are not,” Mr. Gates said over the weekend.

Mr. Fitzgibbon was asked Tuesday if he would consider raising Australia’s commitment.

“Absolutely not,” he replied. “We wouldn’t countenance increasing our numbers while those underperforming NATO nations aren’t prepared to make additional commitments.”

I think NATO is totally failed in Afghanistan.Why not UN troops with the help of china,russia deployed to complete task.US economy is also not too stronge to continue support to forces for longer period.
 

Teindva

New Member
First thing is that The United States had its own interests in attacking Iraq and Afghanistan for which it totally bruised The United Nations Organisation. Now to revert to United Nations will not work on the part of United States as its interests will no more work moreover the United Nations is a secondary organisation now influenced and utilized greatly by the United States itself, it is in short an ineffective organisation for peacekeeping rather it will do even now a better job for welfare purpose.
Secondly, why it is upto the date that man knows only the language of power and not humanity. Is man just like that of the jungle life era. Western countries were very keen to send troops to Muslim countries to occupy them on the power of arms. They were even more eager than United States itself thinking that they will kill thousands and make them perish away from their sight being not even noticing anything. Their casualties in war and the counter terror attacks made them review their blindly thrashing strategy. Unless and untill one faces not a disaster concludes not the miseries of others, pitiable.
The economy of United States is already on the road of downfall with all its aims of war. Obama would never succeed if there had been United States winning its objectives. United States is seeking more trouble for NATO. It is already in air that Anti-American guerillas from all over the world are grouping in Afghanistan with increase in NATO troops and lengthening tenure.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Strategy and numbers

The troop losses experienced in the south are riding the red line when it comes to acceptable losses for the countries involved and are way over this line for some other NATO countries (Like Germany...).

The reinforcements brought in by the US are needed to actually win back territory which was lost to the Taliban in the last month and to provide the security which is needed for the civil rebuilding programs.
It seems to me that before stating the troop losses are "riding the red line", one has to ask how that 'red line' is determined.

Usually losses are projected based on specific strategic, operational and tactical planning considerations for the theatre. They vary based on the posture of the forces, be it offensive or defensive.
What were these for NATO in 2001, and what are these now if they have changed?

As I see it the original strategy in Afghanistan was to:
a) defeat the Taliban led Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan Government
and
b) to apprehend all members of Al Qaeda sheltering in Afghanistan.
The NATO posture was offensive, and forces conducting an offensive usually initially incur more casualties than the defender.

What seems to be forgotten is that the 2001 strategy was not executed with a sole NATO participation. While NATO contributed the firepower in the shape of aircraft, the ground fighting was done largely by the United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan (Northern Alliance) forces, i.e. Afghans. Even by mid-2002 there were only 10,000 NATO troops in Afghanistan, with most American troops at or around the larger air bases. Fully half of these troops were NOT ground combat elements, but air forces' operational and support personnel the other half was protecting.

After that (from 2003) the NATO forces had restricted themselves to small (company) operations by line units, or squad to platoon sized operations by special forces, in all cases supported by aircraft.

However, two things have to be realised.

Firstly the combined strength of the NATO forces in Afghanistan does not represent actual combat elements, but combat, combat support and operational support elements. The combat elements represent maybe a one third to two-fifths of the total force.

Secondly, the Taliban only have about 10,000 personnel in Afghanistan, of which maybe 10% are support personnel.

Much of the combat has been tactical, with NATO being mostly on the defensive, relying on intelligence to find infiltrating Taliban forces (never larger than small battalion (300) in strength). The operations have been largely about keeping ground communications clear of Taliban to allow ISAF/PRT traffic, and the usual patrolling around bases. NATO has no offensive strategy in Afghanistan because that would require at least 30,000 GROUND COMBAT troops, and given the offensive operations require greater intensity of combat and operational support, these would require perhaps 60,000 additional non-combat personnel besides the air forces, a total of probably over 100,000 NATO troops in the country. These would allow some semblance of attempting an operational dominance of the Afghanistan's southern and eastern borders where the Taliban are infiltrating through the porous border security often provided only by air surveillance, and by drones at that. In fact the problem is only with the Nuristani, Pashtun and Baluchi populated southern and south-eastern areas of Afghanistan because the Northern Alliance is still around! They are keeping their half od the country secured virtually without any help from NATO, something that had gone unreported.

Strategically speaking we are only talking about keeping secure the 1,500km border with Pakistan.

For comparison, the GDR land border was 2292km, and was guarded by 47,000 border troops, with 18 regiments (about 2,000 each) of actual border troops for a total of about 36,000. Of course the differences in the borders of the DDR/FRG and that of Afghanistan and Pakistan are very different, but at least its a useful and relevant data from NATO history.

Based on the above, and using very rough arithmetic, I would suggest that at least 15,000 border control troops would be required for the 1,500km of the border.

Another 15-20,000 would be required to secure the southern and south-eastern provinces over perhaps a 12 month offensive campaign.

Manning of the existing ISAF/PRT facilities will probably require about 5,000 base security combat troops.

The combat support personnel would be equal to about 50% of the number of troops engaged in combat duties (border security and inland security), or 20,000 troops.

The support personnel are likely to represent at least a doubling of this number, i.e. another 40,000 troops. So, I still get a very conservative 100,000 troops.

Interestingly the Soviet idea of border control involved border troops operating up to 100km beyond the Soviet-Afghan border, with 62,000 border troops serving on the border during the decade of the conflict. These troops are not usually included in the 40th Army total.

Instead we have the current total ISAF troops of about 55,000. These are largely performing the base security role (including area patrols). About 8,000 US troops and 5-6,000 NATO troops are performing both the border security and the offensive operations in trying to secure HALF of Afghanistan. Most NATO troops are not combat troops, and few seem to realise this. Of the larger contingents, the bulk are not combat troops either. The Australian contingent is a good example, including effectively only three combat-capable companies, of which one is a special forces contingent. Any person half-familiar with tactics by looking at the Australian area of responsibility in Orūzgān would realise that at least six line companies would be required to carry out sustained offensive operations effectively in that terrain to deny entry of Taliban into the area. At least half of these would need to be mobile. Instead of these ground troops all the Australian troops can do is rely on the admittedly excellent reconnaissance intelligence to respond to incursions, but who has ever won a war by defending?

In effect the NATO command in Afghanistan had lost tactical, and eventually operational and strategic initiative to a much smaller force of Taliban sometime in 2003 and had never regained it. The cause: it has become focused on 'rebuilding' Afghanistan without having secured its borders, the first concern in establishing sovereignty.

I would agree that calls for change in strategy are warranted, but what strategy will it be, defensive or offensive?

Cheers
 
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Firn

Active Member
Winning peace for Afghanistan is a most complex task as it is intertwined with so issues. The Afghan goverment is largely corrupt, the country and its people poor and divided across political, ethnic, linguistic and religious lines. A broad spectrum of insurgents with differing motivs and will form many groups which resist overtly or covertly or both the Afghan goverment. Outside streams of support in manpower, money, intelligence and ressources, especially from the safe heaven in some areas in Pakistan make it very difficult to create the security and peace the vast majority of the Afghans want.

More troops and more trained reliable Afghan forces will without any doubt help to secure larger parts of the Green zones and population centers. Pushing the "Taliban" out of the regions were by far the largest amount of the population is concentrated will greatly enhance their security. It would also help alot if Pakistan would be finally show that they can keep their own house in order and curb the flames before they get engulfed in flames. Sadly it seems that their large military is unable to operate effectively against the ever spreading extremists.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Winning peace for Afghanistan is a most complex task as it is intertwined with so issues. The Afghan goverment is largely corrupt, the country and its people poor and divided across political, ethnic, linguistic and religious lines. A broad spectrum of insurgents with differing motivs and will form many groups which resist overtly or covertly or both the Afghan goverment. Outside streams of support in manpower, money, intelligence and ressources, especially from the safe heaven in some areas in Pakistan make it very difficult to create the security and peace the vast majority of the Afghans want.
Firn, the Afghan Government is not corrupt. It just functions based on different concepts to those in Europe and the USA. The entire Islamic world does.
Afghanistan is however a bit of a place where over the centuries, maybe millennia, shards of larger populations settled in a region that no one else really wanted. Afghanistan is essentially a large mountain massif with a few deserts around it. Its borders were defined by the British with no regard to anything else, and in reality it should not exist. The northern half would probably be better off as part of the Central Asian states it borders, although I'm not sure how those largely secular states would welcome mostly Islamic relatives from the south. The Baluchis and Pashtuns clearly belong in Pakistan, and this is why there is a constant flow of support from there. There is no unifying dynasty, and no national identity in Afghanistan outside of Islam, so integration into Pakistan would not be difficult, but the effect on Pakistan would be highly unpredictable and probably destructive.

This may sound strange, but not every nation needs to be created. Some would benefit from seizing to exist.

More troops and more trained reliable Afghan forces will without any doubt help to secure larger parts of the Green zones and population centers. Pushing the "Taliban" out of the regions were by far the largest amount of the population is concentrated will greatly enhance their security. It would also help a lot if Pakistan would be finally show that they can keep their own house in order and curb the flames before they get engulfed in flames. Sadly it seems that their large military is unable to operate effectively against the ever spreading extremists.
In most cases the "ever spreading extremists" are related to Pakistani troops by blood! The armed forces of any state generally reflect the state of the society and its leadership.
 

waraich

Banned Member
It seems to me that before stating the troop losses are "riding the red line", one has to ask how that 'red line' is determined.

Usually losses are projected based on specific strategic, operational and tactical planning considerations for the theatre. They vary based on the posture of the forces, be it offensive or defensive.
What were these for NATO in 2001, and what are these now if they have changed?

As I see it the original strategy in Afghanistan was to:
a) defeat the Taliban led Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan Government
and
b) to apprehend all members of Al Qaeda sheltering in Afghanistan.
The NATO posture was offensive, and forces conducting an offensive usually initially incur more casualties than the defender.

What seems to be forgotten is that the 2001 strategy was not executed with a sole NATO participation. While NATO contributed the firepower in the shape of aircraft, the ground fighting was done largely by the United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan (Northern Alliance) forces, i.e. Afghans. Even by mid-2002 there were only 10,000 NATO troops in Afghanistan, with most American troops at or around the larger air bases. Fully half of these troops were NOT ground combat elements, but air forces' operational and support personnel the other half was protecting.

After that (from 2003) the NATO forces had restricted themselves to small (company) operations by line units, or squad to platoon sized operations by special forces, in all cases supported by aircraft.

However, two things have to be realised.

Firstly the combined strength of the NATO forces in Afghanistan does not represent actual combat elements, but combat, combat support and operational support elements. The combat elements represent maybe a one third to two-fifths of the total force.

Secondly, the Taliban only have about 10,000 personnel in Afghanistan, of which maybe 10% are support personnel.

Much of the combat has been tactical, with NATO being mostly on the defensive, relying on intelligence to find infiltrating Taliban forces (never larger than small battalion (300) in strength). The operations have been largely about keeping ground communications clear of Taliban to allow ISAF/PRT traffic, and the usual patrolling around bases. NATO has no offensive strategy in Afghanistan because that would require at least 30,000 GROUND COMBAT troops, and given the offensive operations require greater intensity of combat and operational support, these would require perhaps 60,000 additional non-combat personnel besides the air forces, a total of probably over 100,000 NATO troops in the country. These would allow some semblance of attempting an operational dominance of the Afghanistan's southern and eastern borders where the Taliban are infiltrating through the porous border security often provided only by air surveillance, and by drones at that. In fact the problem is only with the Nuristani, Pashtun and Baluchi populated southern and south-eastern areas of Afghanistan because the Northern Alliance is still around! They are keeping their half od the country secured virtually without any help from NATO, something that had gone unreported.

Strategically speaking we are only talking about keeping secure the 1,500km border with Pakistan.

For comparison, the GDR land border was 2292km, and was guarded by 47,000 border troops, with 18 regiments (about 2,000 each) of actual border troops for a total of about 36,000. Of course the differences in the borders of the DDR/FRG and that of Afghanistan and Pakistan are very different, but at least its a useful and relevant data from NATO history.

Based on the above, and using very rough arithmetic, I would suggest that at least 15,000 border control troops would be required for the 1,500km of the border.

Another 15-20,000 would be required to secure the southern and south-eastern provinces over perhaps a 12 month offensive campaign.

Manning of the existing ISAF/PRT facilities will probably require about 5,000 base security combat troops.

The combat support personnel would be equal to about 50% of the number of troops engaged in combat duties (border security and inland security), or 20,000 troops.

The support personnel are likely to represent at least a doubling of this number, i.e. another 40,000 troops. So, I still get a very conservative 100,000 troops.

Interestingly the Soviet idea of border control involved border troops operating up to 100km beyond the Soviet-Afghan border, with 62,000 border troops serving on the border during the decade of the conflict. These troops are not usually included in the 40th Army total.

Instead we have the current total ISAF troops of about 55,000. These are largely performing the base security role (including area patrols). About 8,000 US troops and 5-6,000 NATO troops are performing both the border security and the offensive operations in trying to secure HALF of Afghanistan. Most NATO troops are not combat troops, and few seem to realise this. Of the larger contingents, the bulk are not combat troops either. The Australian contingent is a good example, including effectively only three combat-capable companies, of which one is a special forces contingent. Any person half-familiar with tactics by looking at the Australian area of responsibility in Orūzgān would realise that at least six line companies would be required to carry out sustained offensive operations effectively in that terrain to deny entry of Taliban into the area. At least half of these would need to be mobile. Instead of these ground troops all the Australian troops can do is rely on the admittedly excellent reconnaissance intelligence to respond to incursions, but who has ever won a war by defending?

In effect the NATO command in Afghanistan had lost tactical, and eventually operational and strategic initiative to a much smaller force of Taliban sometime in 2003 and had never regained it. The cause: it has become focused on 'rebuilding' Afghanistan without having secured its borders, the first concern in establishing sovereignty.

I would agree that calls for change in strategy are warranted, but what strategy will it be, defensive or offensive?

Cheers
I think for Afghanistan different strategy is required .Presently talabans are using same strategy as they used againt SU army of 150000 soldiers .Your suggestion to increase the NATO forces to that level will not work as already failed in Afghan -Russia war.


Internationally the sucess rate of gurilla insurgency is very low, Afghanistan have all basic environmental requirements of gurrilla war difficult tarren,local population support,land lock country and norcotics which is source of finance required for amunition for gurrilla war.

NATO failed to control all above factors in favor of talaban and also now NATO supply line is under their attack .In this senario there are only two solutions first to involve good talaban in politics ,second continue fight for many years.

NEW DELHI: Suddenly, there is talk of two kinds of Taliban -the "good" Taliban and the "bad" Taliban. The world knows the Taliban is bad. So, what
is "good" Taliban?
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/In-search-of-good-Taliban/articleshow/4226199.cms
 
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FutureTank

Banned Member
I think for Afghanistan different strategy is required .Presently talabans are using same strategy as they used againt SU army of 150000 soldiers .Your suggestion to increase the NATO forces to that level will not work as already failed in Afghan -Russia war.


Internationally the sucess rate of gurilla insurgency is very low, Afghanistan have all basic environmental requirements of gurrilla war difficult tarren,local population support,land lock country and norcotics which is source of finance required for amunition for gurrilla war.

NATO failed to control all above factors in favor of talaban and also now NATO supply line is under their attack .In this senario there are only two solutions first to involve good talaban in politics ,second continue fight for many years.

NEW DELHI: Suddenly, there is talk of two kinds of Taliban -the "good" Taliban and the "bad" Taliban. The world knows the Taliban is bad. So, what
is "good" Taliban?
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/In-search-of-good-Taliban/articleshow/4226199.cms
Firstly I am not suggesting 150K for NATO deployment, although no field commander had ever refused troops.

What makes you think that the Soviet Army failed in Afghanistan? Because they withdrew? Keep in mind the very different circumstances in which that war was fought.

"Internationally the success rate of guerrilla insurgency is very low"? In which history books?

NATO supply lines are not under attack, Pakistani road infrastructure being used by NATO is being attacked! In fact this is a rather strange situation where the lines of communication run through the enemy deployment that is the Afghan-Pakistan border. Consequently the only conclusion that one can reach is that the Pakistani armed forces are not worth the uniforms they wear since they are either not true to their oaths, or are incompetent in defending their territory. The solution would be clearly to change the direction of the lines of communication.

There are "good" Taliban? The basic Taliban goal is to institute shariah law in Afghanistan as part of the Islamic state they wanted. After all, Taliban was not the name of the Afghanistan's government under their leadership. Do people have such short memories?
 

waraich

Banned Member
Firstly I am not suggesting 150K for NATO deployment, although no field commander had ever refused troops.
In your calculation you concluded that more troops needed to guard the Pak-Afghan boaders.If you are not in favour of more troops then what is plan in your mind to control insurgency?

What makes you think that the Soviet Army failed in Afghanistan? Because they withdrew? Keep in mind the very different circumstances in which that war was fought.
It is history of SU that they never withdraw their army from captured country,first time they were forced to withdraw forces from Afghanistan due heavy death toll 15000 Russia troops died in that war.
Agreed at that time USA supported mujahdeen againt Russia ,their is no other major circumtances differences.

"Internationally the success rate of guerrilla insurgency is very low"? In which history books?
I mean sucess against gurilla insurgency.

NATO supply lines are not under attack, Pakistani road infrastructure being used by NATO is being attacked! In fact this is a rather strange situation where the lines of communication run through the enemy deployment that is the Afghan-Pakistan border. Consequently the only conclusion that one can reach is that the Pakistani armed forces are not worth the uniforms they wear since they are either not true to their oaths, or are incompetent in defending their territory. The solution would be clearly to change the direction of the lines of communication.
PA is trying their best but they dont have enough weapons to protect NATO supplies and also local pushtoon tribes are main hindrence .Pakistan already spent 10 billion USD on this war againt US 2 billion USD aid . What else you expect from poor country like Pakistan.

There are "good" Taliban? The basic Taliban goal is to institute shariah law in Afghanistan as part of the Islamic state they wanted. After all, Taliban was not the name of the Afghanistan's government under their leadership. Do people have such short memories?
Right,shariah law and jirga law are both similiar, jirga system is only system acceptable to local pushtoon and baloch tribes ,Afghan government dont have roots in local population that is why afraid of elections as per schedule.Practically more then 70% area of Afghanistan is still under control of talaban which is a big question mark.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
I am in favour of increasing troop numbers, but I don't think it needs to be to the Soviet levels because technology 20 years on can compensate for some troops numbers, particularly in border control. However, the increase should not be in absolute numbers as is reported, i.e. 17K being sent, but in specific distribution, so if 17K ate being sent, that 50% of those are combat troops, which is not the case now.

"It is history of SU that they never withdraw their army from captured country,first time they were forced to withdraw forces from Afghanistan due heavy death toll 15000 Russia troops died in that war." This is not true. There is a difference between territory that was integrated into the USSR, that which was integrated into the Soviet sphere of influence, and one where Soviet troops were deployed for some political purpose. Soviet troops were present in North Korea and North Vietnam, but withdrew. Soviet troops were stationed in Poland (for example) but were not occupying the country. They did occupy Hungary in 1956, but withdrew most troops after restoring the regime. Afghanistan was going to be an expansion of the Communist block, not an occupation. A Central Asian 'Mongolia'. The death toll may have been seen as heavy in the West, but, are we forgetting that the US lost 57,000 in Vietnam during same length of time? Are we forgetting that only a singe Army was operational in Afghanistan, the 40th? The withdrawal was far more political than military in nature, as was the case with Vietnam.

The low rate of success against insurgencies is only where these can feed off external bases of operation.The French had a remarkable number fo successful counter-insurgency operations during the Napoleonic wars where they were able to seal the borders and sever the external supply lines to the insurgents. They failed in Spain because of the inability to counter the Royal Navy, but they suppressed one in France in the early days of the Revolution, one in Southern Italy, and another in Tyrol. In more recent examples I can point to the Aden and Malaya. Insurgencies are not a 'boogie-man' of military operations :)

If a country's military can not safeguard domestic transport infrastructure, than what use is it? "local Pushtoon tribes" are citizens of Pakistan. Is Pakistan a sovereign state or a collection of semi-independent territories?

"Practically more then 70% area of Afghanistan is still under control of talaban which is a big question mark" That is not quite true. It looks this way when one looks at the ISAF maps, but there are at best 15,000 Taliban personnel in Afghanistan, so they are at best controlling (on foot) MAYBE 10% of Afghan territory at any one time. Leg infantry, no matter how well they know the country and how motivated they are still have physical limitations to project power :)

By the way during Soviet deployment the number was estimated at over 100,000 mudjahideen, and that would have required a Soviet force of 500,000 at least, i.e. 3-4 armies in country. NATO is having a relatively easy time of it and they know it.

Cheers
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Iirc Soviet command actually asked for a 500 000 deployment initially, and instead got an initial force of .... 40 000.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Iirc Soviet command actually asked for a 500 000 deployment initially, and instead got an initial force of .... 40 000.
Yes, I saw that on one of the Russian forums. Where did you see it? Of course that was entirely predictable. Soviet officers were taught the scientific and rational approach to warfare from day 1, so they did the math....
 

Chrom

New Member
After WW2 USSR occupied Finland and Austria. USSR leaved both.

The losses in Afganistan may seems relatively high, but dont forget these losses were distributet along 10 years, and actually losses ratio was on constant decline last 5 years.

USSR losses ratio in Afganistan was very comparable to USA losses ratio in Iraq now (actually, even less as USA losses dont account "private" contractors losses) - and well, IF USA leaves IRAQ - it will be definitly NOT because of they soldiers deaths.

Also, there is major myth about "usually" unsuccessful counter-unsurgency operarations. From history we know many successful operations - however, the is what almost all of them were carried mainly by residents (possible with relative minor foreign help).

Examples - USSR. Pre-WW2 - Kavkaz. Post-WW2 - West Ukraina, Kavkaz.
Greece post WW2 where USA helped to suppress pro-communist counter-insurgency. Number of countries in Latin America where USA done all kind of similar things.
India, China - both had "unstable" provinces. Turkey, Iraq in the past. Irland in GB.
I can write the list very long. Main point - it IS perfectly possible to win counter-insurgency war. Moreover, it IS usually get won. And not by "rebels" - but they opponents.
 

waraich

Banned Member
I am in favour of increasing troop numbers, but I don't think it needs to be to the Soviet levels because technology 20 years on can compensate for some troops numbers, particularly in border control. However, the increase should not be in absolute numbers as is reported, i.e. 17K being sent, but in specific distribution, so if 17K ate being sent, that 50% of those are combat troops, which is not the case now.
With increasing death toll ,it is not advisable to increase the number of troops ,it will further esclate the rate of casualties.In fact US need to deploy combat troops trained againt gurrilla war .

"It is history of SU that they never withdraw their army from captured country,first time they were forced to withdraw forces from Afghanistan due heavy death toll 15000 Russia troops died in that war." This is not true. There is a difference between territory that was integrated into the USSR, that which was integrated into the Soviet sphere of influence, and one where Soviet troops were deployed for some political purpose. Soviet troops were present in North Korea and North Vietnam, but withdrew. Soviet troops were stationed in Poland (for example) but were not occupying the country. They did occupy Hungary in 1956, but withdrew most troops after restoring the regime. Afghanistan was going to be an expansion of the Communist block, not an occupation. A Central Asian 'Mongolia'. The death toll may have been seen as heavy in the West, but, are we forgetting that the US lost 57,000 in Vietnam during same length of time? Are we forgetting that only a singe Army was operational in Afghanistan, the 40th? The withdrawal was far more political than military in nature, as was the case with Vietnam.
Russia still have influence in countries disintegrated after break down of USSR.Again SU is in aggresive mode , Gorgia is latest example.The US made stinger missiles,high death toll, and ecomical failure played decisive role in USSR defeat in Aafghanistan



The low rate of success against insurgencies is only where these can feed off external bases of operation.The French had a remarkable number fo successful counter-insurgency operations during the Napoleonic wars where they were able to seal the borders and sever the external supply lines to the insurgents. They failed in Spain because of the inability to counter the Royal Navy, but they suppressed one in France in the early days of the Revolution, one in Southern Italy, and another in Tyrol. In more recent examples I can point to the Aden and Malaya. Insurgencies are not a 'boogie-man' of military operations :)
In Afghanistan long term presence of US is not in favour of China,Pakistan and Iran so insurgents are taking benefit of neighbouring countries intrests.

If a country's military can not safeguard domestic transport infrastructure, than what use is it? "local Pushtoon tribes" are citizens of Pakistan. Is Pakistan a sovereign state or a collection of semi-independent territories?
Pak -Miltary can not fight a long term gurilla war neither trained for that.Present deal of talaban with miltery in SAWT is recent example for you to undertand.Local population of SWAT was not supporting army as result they have make deal with local tribes and militants.

"Practically more then 70% area of Afghanistan is still under control of talaban which is a big question mark" That is not quite true. It looks this way when one looks at the ISAF maps, but there are at best 15,000 Taliban personnel in Afghanistan, so they are at best controlling (on foot) MAYBE 10% of Afghan territory at any one time. Leg infantry, no matter how well they know the country and how motivated they are still have physical limitations to project power :)
Right they have limitations, but after seven years NATO is facing more problems to execute their activities ,it means Talaban are getting more strength.

By the way during Soviet deployment the number was estimated at over 100,000 mudjahideen, and that would have required a Soviet force of 500,000 at least, i.e. 3-4 armies in country. NATO is having a relatively easy time of it and they know it.
Right,but ISAF is failing to achieve the strategic vistory in Afghanistan ,so it means there is need to change present strategy.

Regards,
 
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